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[England] Post-6N/Pre-RWC Player Watch

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TRF_Peat

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I think what Peat is talking about is holding our opinions back a bit until we see how he goes in the rarefied arena that is knock out Rugby (for me that's HC QF on wards).

The problem is that unless the Chiefs make those kind of competitive games then the scenario is out of the question, so the best we can do is base it on AP.

For what it's worth I'm also not convinced he'll make the step up.

Yeah, basically this, although I'd prefer to see him at international level than at HEC knock-out level (its more likely for one thing).

There's a lot of excitement about Ewers and, well, it certainly isn't justified by one game against the eleventh based team. I'm not sure it's even justified by the last two seasons. He's approaching messiah levels of hype and, well, that generally never ends quite how we hoped. I'm pretty excited by what he could offer myself and would like to see him given a shot, but I think some people are overexcited.

And I wish we had a better idea of how he actually played at international or comparable level to judge on.

This is the bit I don't buy. Discounting 2 years of good form in the Premiership and Europe, worth roughly 50 games, including tough games against teams that are better than your own, as being a lesser evidence of worth of a player because they haven't appeared in a very small handful of knockout games, is mental.

Quality shown in the Premiership is good enough evidence to suggest whether a player will make it at international level.

Actually, let me rephrase. When you play for a team like Exeter, and there are teams like Clermont and Toulon duking it out in the European knockouts, you show more evidence of your worth in a game against e.g. the Saints/Sarries in the Premiership, than being bollocked by a clearly superior team in Europe. What has Saints-Clermont done for the Saints players? How many good internationals would we be discounting if we went only on the evidence of that QF?

Well, for one thing, I said I wanted to see him in a top quality team vs another, so that excludes that scenario - and, indeed, Clermont-Saints, to be slightly cruel albeit fair.

And for another thing, good internationals aren't judged on one match - actually, no one should be judged on just one match. Wanting a better idea of how he goes at that level =/= proposing he be judged solely on one match.

But yes, it is lesser evidence. Premiership rugby is of a distinctly lower quality compared to Premiership rugby; where as HEC knock out rugby is regularly held up as being of near or equal intensity and quality to test match rugby, sometimes even superior. Since it's a nearer beast, games there are a surer guide. Plenty of players look pretty bloody useful in domestic competition only to be shown up at international level. I struggle to think of too many players who shine at HEC knock out level and then don't produce at international.

Ultimately, Ewers - or anyone - could be MotM 500 times on the trot in the Premiership and I'd still be mildly doubtful about efficacy at the next level up until proven. It doesn't matter how many games anyone plays there, the standard simply isn't high enough to be sure.

edit: And yes, I accept it's often the only guide we've got, and that it is a guide, and that people deserve chances based upon it and all of that super obvious stuff.
 
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Patchey

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This is basically the Dave Strettle conundrum. No amount of Premiership form is guarantee, ultimately, of international success. Strettle has even done well in knock out games but still never shone in the England jersey.

Same could easily be true of Ewers, ultimate there is only one way of really finding out!
 

TRF_Peat

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This is basically the Dave Strettle conundrum. No amount of Premiership form is guarantee, ultimately, of international success. Strettle has even done well in knock out games but still never shone in the England jersey.

Same could easily be true of Ewers, ultimate there is only one way of really finding out!

I'm not sure whether to be pleased or irritated that you've put it so much more concisely than me...
 

j'nuh

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But there are no guarantees that any player will perform in their next set of tests, regardless of how much they have shown on the international/club/European arena. There isn't proof that Ewers will make the step up to international rugby, much like there isn't any proof that Corbisiero will ever be a test animal again, or that Wood will get back to his best, or even that Joseph will continue his Six Nations form into the WC.

The tendency is that players who perform well for their clubs translate it on the international stage. It's no coincidence that Joseph was having a great season for Bath before he became England's best player in the Six Nations. Much like Joseph is one of the star players of Bath, Ewers is of Exeter. So I don't think it's a brave prediction that Ewers will be able to perform well at international level, at least in keeping with his form for club. Proof to say that he will beyond doubt? No, but that's expecting a little too much.
 

ratsapprentice

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Also, I haven't seen too much Ewers bandwagoning recently, a bit, but nothing egregious or undeserving IMO.

Elliot Daly on the other hand....
 

Patchey

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Also, I haven't seen too much Ewers bandwagoning recently, a bit, but nothing egregious or undeserving IMO.

Elliot Daly on the other hand....

Wow wow wow, don't be hating on E Dizzle.
 

TRF_Peat

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The tendency is that players who perform well for their clubs translate it on the international stage. It's no coincidence that Joseph was having a great season for Bath before he became England's best player in the Six Nations. Much like Joseph is one of the star players of Bath, Ewers is of Exeter. So I don't think it's a brave prediction that Ewers will be able to perform well at international level, at least in keeping with his form for club. Proof to say that he will beyond doubt? No, but that's expecting a little too much.

I was going to type a very long list of names, including large amounts of the current England squad, that I feel rebut this point, but then realised there's no point. Believe what you will, I've no idea how half of this post is meant to be disagreeing with what I said anyway.
 

TRF_Olyy

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Tom Youngs' comments are a bit....well, nothing.
"We all graft to get into the England squad, and then someone playing in France comes into the squad?" - Is he implying that you don't graft if you play abroad?

Pretty much agree with COS, though.
Really don't think think we should allow foreign based players to play for England.
 

ratsapprentice

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I think I can forgive Tom for not being more articulate - some people just aren't... and even the most articulate amongst us still fail to make any ****ing sense sometimes.

I think he meant "a lot of us could have gone to pick up a paycheck in France if we knew we could still play for England".
 

goodNumber10

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Tom Youngs' comments are a bit....well, nothing.
"We all graft to get into the England squad, and then someone playing in France comes into the squad?" - Is he implying that you don't graft if you play abroad?

Pretty much agree with COS, though.
Really don't think think we should allow foreign based players to play for England.

Well if you think about it certain goals and structures are set by the RFU/England and the Coaching team, that are met by the EPS members. They have had to continually work on these areas and guidelines on top of their current club commitments to maintain their EPS place leading through to a world cup.

Then Armitage comes in at the last minute having done none of the work the rest of the squad has done and someone drops out.
 
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TRF_Olyy

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Fair points, both of you!
 

goodNumber10

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talking of armitage anyone seen this? How to identify which Armitage brother is which:

 

yaboyjj

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It would be a disgrace if he gets called up into the squad- rules are rules, and he knew what playing in France entails. Since when was this an 'exceptional circumstance'?, last I checked there were at least 3 fit and ready, top draw 7's playing in the ap all working hard to make the cut.
 
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TRF_Peat

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Tom Youngs' comments are a bit....well, nothing.
"We all graft to get into the England squad, and then someone playing in France comes into the squad?" - Is he implying that you don't graft if you play abroad?

He's probably saying that those in the England squad have grafted to be in the England squad while those in France haven't. That the English based players have made England their priority, that they have made sacrifices to play for England, and the French based players haven't. Which is true.

His point is that to suddenly bring in guys who haven't given the same amount of sacrifice and dedication to England as those already there - to break the rules the current squad has lived by - could be disruptive to squad cohesion and morale. Which is plausible to me. Plus, you know, I'm not going to argue with Tom Youngs about what the England squad thinks.
 

ratsapprentice

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could be disruptive to squad cohesion and morale. Which is plausible to me. Plus, you know, I'm not going to argue with Tom Youngs about what the England squad thinks.

I suspect a large majority of English players, let alone those within the EPS would be very ****** off.
 

Patchey

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I have two questions regarding this:

1. Has the 'exception circumstances' rule been confirmed yet? I always thought it was defined as a certain number of injuries in one position. I didn't think it was an arbitrary measure or that it could be suspended at a World Cup.

2. Has there been any confirmation of interest in Abendanon other than by pundits who've suddenly notice he is an ace fullback? With Armitage we've had years of speculation and actually RFU comment. With Bendy it seems to be Stu Barnes and others going 'oh look, he played well!'.

Just for thought.
 

Tallshort

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Does anyone think the whole Steffon Armitage is very media driven? How many people in the game are asking for his inclusion? It seems totally driven by the Telegraph, Mail and the odd pundit like SCW.

I wish they would just shut up.
 

Tigs Man

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Tom Youngs english speaks perfect IMO.

Just reads by some of you wrong.
 
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