England Rebuild

[SelimNiai]

Who's making any exeptions? You called him no loss, that IMO is disrespecting. Comment on how England are going to rebuild, you seen to have plenty of negative thoughts on England of last how would you rebuild this? Not just hate on a player that has been forced to retire and say it wasen't a loss.

Ellis was an average SH who only got the caps he did because he is Leicester. Perry was a better SH at the time before Ellis injury and Youngs and Care are better now than Ellis was so it really hasn't been a massive loss to England.

Plus he was a bit of a knob

 

[Saintjay]

Martyn Thomas giving Jono his backing, pound to a penny his RFU supporting lackies will fall in line.

Just mentioned Nick MALLET, they were interested in him before they went for Jono.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Ellis was an average SH who only got the caps he did because he is Leicester. Perry was a better SH at the time before Ellis injury and Youngs and Care are better now than Ellis was so it really hasn't been a massive loss to England.

Plus he was a bit of a knob

Bit?

 

[SelimNiai]

Alright, he was a massive, 72-font with bold and underlined

KNOB

 

[JW.]

Ellis was an average SH who only got the caps he did because he is Leicester. Perry was a better SH at the time before Ellis injury and Youngs and Care are better now than Ellis was so it really hasn't been a massive loss to England.

Plus he was a bit of a knob

I know he wasen't a hugely talented player, that was not what I was going on about.

 

[j-dawg]

Many people have missed out Joe Marler when talking about developing youngsters. I'd rate him better than Corbiserio.

 

[JW.]

Many people have missed out Joe Marler when talking about developing youngsters. I'd rate him better than Corbiserio.

I named him. But indeed the guys an animal if he can keep his discipline.

 

[j-dawg]

Seems to be a problem with him. If we develop him now he has potential to become a truely great player. As big a fan as I am of Sheridan, I think he may suffer yet more injuries in the future, although you never know, Wilkinsons career looked finished before the 07 tournament. So, providing Marler progresses into a class player, he gets the nod. If not, Corbiserio (needs to lose fat though).

 

[gingergenius]

Many people have missed out Joe Marler when talking about developing youngsters. I'd rate him better than Corbiserio.

Well please don't apply to be coach of England.

The first and most important facet of an international prop is an ability to scrummage well. Ball carrying and work-rate are useful, but won't win/ lose you matches like scrums can. Corbisiero has performed recently against some pretty high quality tightheads, as opposed to Matt Stevens for example. Marler gets shoved around by good tightheads in the premiership. If he improves his scrummaging, then I'll be delighted for him to play for England. But if and only if.

 

[JW.]

Well please don't apply to be coach of England.

The first and most important facet of an international prop is an ability to scrummage well. Ball carrying and work-rate are useful, but won't win/ lose you matches like scrums can. Corbisiero has performed recently against some pretty high quality tightheads, as opposed to Matt Stevens for example. Marler gets shoved around by good tightheads in the premiership. If he improves his scrummaging, then I'll be delighted for him to play for England. But if and only if.

Stevens was on his wrong side of the scrum though. But unfair on him.

 

[j-dawg]

Well please don't apply to be coach of England.

The first and most important facet of an international prop is an ability to scrummage well. Ball carrying and work-rate are useful, but won't win/ lose you matches like scrums can. Corbisiero has performed recently against some pretty high quality tightheads, as opposed to Matt Stevens for example. Marler gets shoved around by good tightheads in the premiership. If he improves his scrummaging, then I'll be delighted for him to play for England. But if and only if.

How will Marlers scrummaging ever be that of an international if he's not developed internationally? Even if its just being in the squad and absorbing Rowntrees advice. Speaking of Rowntree, I hope he stays. Overall he's done a good job and weve got the better of many 'high rep' scrums in the past year.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Marler is one for the future, but should have another season in the Saxons or so
Like GingerGenius said, a prop should first and foremost be able to scrummage, and Marler is an average-at-best scrummager
He's only 21 or so though, so no need to rush him in - keep him on the radar and use him when he's matured

 

[stus768]

Robshaw would be a good shout as a potential leader, especially as Croft seems to be off form and not really offering much in the breakdown.
Would pick Owen Farrell at 12 as soon as possible.

 

[j'nuh]

To add to what's been said, I think we need to be a lot more flexible in dropping/bringing players back in. If the six nations started tomorrow, I wouldn't want Youngs anywhere near the English team. I think he needs to play his way back into England because I think it's harder to play back into form at international level than at club level. Also, there are other scrumhalves itching for international experience (eg Simpson). I'd say the same about Croft and Lawes.

Also, there's no point of bringing youth into a team if they aren't going to be picked. Going into the six nations, I'd rather young players stay with their clubs than wasting away in the England reserves for more than a month, like Simpson and Wood have practically done over the course of the WC.

Can we lure Edwards away from Wales to be the coach?

 

[gingergenius]

How will Marlers scrummaging ever be that of an international if he's not developed internationally? Even if its just being in the squad and absorbing Rowntrees advice. Speaking of Rowntree, I hope he stays. Overall he's done a good job and weve got the better of many 'high rep' scrums in the past year.

The premiership is one of the two toughest scrummaging leagues in the world. Marler is likely to come up against a quality front row week in, week out. He is also at the club which gave Ireland their only decent scrummager of recent years.

I'm happy with him playing for the Saxons, he's a good young talent but props usually develop later, as experience and technique play a big role in their scrummaging ability. This can be learned.

As far as scrums go, besides suffering an injury to Sheridan and then picking the wrong player on the wrong side of the scrum, England always have a good scrum. Rowntree, unlike most of his colleagues, has done a good job, and I think all the criticism of Cole is a wee bit unfair too... almost all the scrum penalties we conceded came from the loosehead side.

 

[Taylo2]

Looking at Tigers players to consider, as i'm a tigers fan....

Anthony Allen - As mentioned previously a real number 12, he's only 25 right now so will be at his prime come world cup 2015.
Kieran Brookes - Young prop just joined from Newcastle, I dont know much of him as i have never seen him play, but I do understand he played in the saxons this past year.
Jordan Crane - Injuries aside, possibly the best number 8 we have at the club
George Ford - Another I havn't seen much of, but the hype around this kid a season ago was big....could he possibly move into the saxons sooner rather than later?
Graham Kitchener - Another Saxon moving to Tigers this year, could be a potential partner for Lawes in the second row if he develops
Matthew Tait - His Tigers start ruined by injuries, could he finally start to live up to his early hype? Maybe
Billy Twelvetrees - When on form, the lad is good. I have however seen a few games where he appears to go missing.
Mickey Young - Might he hampered by playing club rugby with Youngs in the squad too....will he get enough game time to shine?
Tom Youngs - Looked good in his first few apperances at hooker

 

[Peat]

The premiership is one of the two toughest scrummaging leagues in the world. Marler is likely to come up against a quality front row week in, week out. He is also at the club which gave Ireland their only decent scrummager of recent years.

I'm happy with him playing for the Saxons, he's a good young talent but props usually develop later, as experience and technique play a big role in their scrummaging ability. This can be learned.

As far as scrums go, besides suffering an injury to Sheridan and then picking the wrong player on the wrong side of the scrum, England always have a good scrum. Rowntree, unlike most of his colleagues, has done a good job, and I think all the criticism of Cole is a wee bit unfair too... almost all the scrum penalties we conceded came from the loosehead side.

This.

Looking at Tigers players to consider, as i'm a tigers fan....

Anthony Allen - As mentioned previously a real number 12, he's only 25 right now so will be at his prime come world cup 2015.
Kieran Brookes - Young prop just joined from Newcastle, I dont know much of him as i have never seen him play, but I do understand he played in the saxons this past year.
Jordan Crane - Injuries aside, possibly the best number 8 we have at the club
George Ford - Another I havn't seen much of, but the hype around this kid a season ago was big....could he possibly move into the saxons sooner rather than later?
Graham Kitchener - Another Saxon moving to Tigers this year, could be a potential partner for Lawes in the second row if he develops
Matthew Tait - His Tigers start ruined by injuries, could he finally start to live up to his early hype? Maybe
Billy Twelvetrees - When on form, the lad is good. I have however seen a few games where he appears to go missing.
Mickey Young - Might he hampered by playing club rugby with Youngs in the squad too....will he get enough game time to shine?
Tom Youngs - Looked good in his first few apperances at hooker

Brookes has a lot of scrummaging work to do for Tigers but is a great prospect. Crane just isn't good enough. Micky Young hasn't forced his way past Grindal! I think Sam Harrison is a better bet than him. Kitchener also has plenty to learn it seems.

George Ford is a great prospect, a wonderful prospect, but right now he is a suicidal option in defence. That has to be changed before he's given his head. He's only 18, fingers crossed he grows some more...

 

[gingergenius]

I'm not trying to knock George Ford or Christian Wade, because from the glimpses I've seen they look like exciting players. But that's it - glimpses. People (probably me included) were picking Cipriani as 10 for a future England 2011 team a few years ago, based on glimpses, and look where he is now.

If we're talking about future, let's talk about short term, and there are a hell of a lot of young English players who may not have the potential of Wade or Ford (or may), but have certainly hit the straps in the Premiership and really deserve a shot SOON. And since I'm talking about a ten and a winger, let's suggest guys around that age, in that position, who have looked quality in the Prem for a while - Farrell, Short, Sharples are right at the top of my list of U22s in those positions.

 

[JW.]

I'm not trying to knock George Ford or Christian Wade, because from the glimpses I've seen they look like exciting players. But that's it - glimpses. People (probably me included) were picking Cipriani as 10 for a future England 2011 team a few years ago, based on glimpses, and look where he is now.

If we're talking about future, let's talk about short term, and there are a hell of a lot of young English players who may not have the potential of Wade or Ford (or may), but have certainly hit the straps in the Premiership and really deserve a shot SOON. And since I'm talking about a ten and a winger, let's suggest guys around that age, in that position, who have looked quality in the Prem for a while - Farrell, Short, Sharples are right at the top of my list of U22s in those positions.

Ford I agree of, he wasen't very special at the Junior RWC but he's doing oke now. But Wade has peformed on every stage I have seen him play sofar. 6 or 9 try's to date in the premiership, I think he's got more potential than Short or Sharples to be honest. I wouldn't dare to put Ford in at test level yet, Wade I feel if he keeps performing like this up until the 6nations he deserves a shot.

We have some exciting players coming through who have talent in bags. It's up to England to manage and develop them now. Something we don't seem to be very good at as of recent .

 

[m0rris]

GG put pf interest what is short's defence like, his attacking play is brilliant but I've never paid attention to his defence!

Short and Farrell would definitely be on my to try list.

m0rris