England Rebuild

[Nathaniel Langham]

Ford I agree of, he wasen't very special at the Junior RWC but he's doing oke now. But Wade has peformed on every stage I have seen him play sofar. 6 or 9 try's to date in the premiership, I think he's got more potential than Short or Sharples to be honest. I wouldn't dare to put Ford in at test level yet, Wade I feel if he keeps performing like this up until the 6nations he deserves a shot.

We have some exciting players coming through who have talent in bags. It's up to England to manage and develop them now. Something we don't seem to be very good at as of recent .

Ford was in the top few players in the JWC while being the youngest player there and also nominated for the junior player of the year (Article underneath) . He has a huge future.
Nominees announced for Junior Player of Year


The International Rugby Board has unveiled the shortlist of three nominees for the IRB Junior Player of the Year 2011 Award in association with Emirates Airline.

The nominees were selected following the recent record-breaking IRB Junior World Championship held in Italy, the most competitive edition of the Under 20 tournament to date.

Winners New Zealand have Sam Cane and Luke Whitelock in the shortlist, while runners-up England, who pushed the champions all the way in a scintillating final in Padova, are represented by fly half George Ford.

The shortlist represents the voting of team head coaches and match officials, as well as international and local media at the tournament.

IRB Chairman Bernard Lapasset said: “These three players excelled in Italy and they reflect the exciting talent that was on show in a tournament which continues to go from strength to strength. The quality of rugby played in Italy shows the important role this tournament plays in developing the future stars of the world Game.â€

The winner will be announced at the IRB Awards in association with Emirates Airline in Auckland on October 24.

Sam Cane (New Zealand)
A member of New Zealand’s impressive and hard-working loose forward trio in Italy, Sam Cane was the first player to score a hat-trick at Junior World Championship 2011 with his efforts in the Baby Blacks’ 92-0 rout of Wales in round two. One of a handful of players in the New Zealand Under 20 squad with any Super Rugby experience, the Waikato Chiefs flanker’s potential was recognised early and saw him become the first schoolboy to be nominated for the national age grade player of the year accolade back in 2009.

George Ford (England)
The youngest player in the tournament, George Ford’s skills and vision belie his tender age of 18 years and three months. Described as a “very mature player†and someone who “sets the tone in the squad†by England Under 20 coach Rob Hunter, Ford always seems to have options and more often than not takes the right one. The youngest player ever to play a professional match in England, the Leicester Tigers teenager played a key role in England’s run to the final and scored 51 points in the tournament.

Luke Whitelock (New Zealand)
A true leader on and off the pitch and always ready to put his body on the line for the team, Luke Whitelock lifted the distinctive trophy in Padova after guiding New Zealand to a fourth successive ***le. One of a very select few to have two winners’ medals to his name, Whitelock is a danger at both flanker and number 8 with his work rate and game sense. The youngest of four rugby playing brothers, two of whom are already All Blacks, Luke has the potential to be the best of the lot.

Highlights of JWC Final is worth a watch.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJMivTQFWr0&feature=relmfu

 

[Teh Mite]

Why are people suddenly harping on Farrell should play 12? That's about as sensible as calling up Myler to fill in the outside centre channel.

 

[Nathaniel Langham]

Why are people suddenly harping on Farrell should play 12? That's about as sensible as calling up Myler to fill in the outside centre channel.

Maybe because Farrell has spent a lot of time at 12 in the juniors including playing there outside Ford in the JWC and he has played very well there.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Farrell is a much better 12 than 10, imo

Plays better there for Sarries and played better there for U20s too

 

[psychic duck]

Farrell is a much better 12 than 10, imo

Plays better there for Sarries and played better there for U20s too

he can't be worse than his dad was at 12 for England

 

[JW.]

he can't be worse than his dad was at 12 for England

That would be very very hard yes . But England have very bright prospects, lets hope we don't ruin them.

 

[UilamOsa]

On behalf of those not English (or maybe just me) - please change your Coach.

The NH needs to turn the tide of the SH for the sake of Rugby globally. That said, as long as the NH were to at the very least try to be expansive (bar Wales) - they would garner neutral support.

With JWC, they have proven that they have quite of few classy up and comers, with those added to some of the current squad and perhaps a change in Coaching tactics/strategies it would make things very interesting in four years time.

If Johnson continues to take the reigns, he could kill the skills of these youngsters.

 

[Nathaniel Langham]

That would be very very hard yes . But England have very bright prospects, lets hope we don't ruin them.

If Andy Farrell had played in his prime he would have been great for England but by the time he was playing he was well past his prime and ruined by injuries.

 

[Nathaniel Langham]

On behalf of those not English (or maybe just me) - please change your Coach.

The NH needs to turn the tide of the SH for the sake of Rugby globally. That said, as long as the NH were to at the very least try to be expansive (bar Wales) - they would garner neutral support.

With JWC, they have proven that they have quite of few classy up and comers, with those added to some of the current squad and perhaps a change in Coaching tactics/strategies it would make things very interesting in four years time.

If Johnson continues to take the reigns, he could kill the skills of these youngsters.

I think Shaun Edwards would be make a decent go of it .

 

[OldCoach]

Nice post but you also miss the point - England have come 2nd to NZ in the last 4 U20 Junior World Cups. So we are guilty of doing the same things and expecting a different result.
Apart from that the points you make are very relevant. So here's my build on your post.
1. Only in England, France and strangely Japan can a young player suddenly start making a reasonable living by becoming a top club player so where's the incentive to push for that extra skill level and become an international?
2. In NZ, Aus, SA, Wales and Ireland - the level below international is Provincial funded by the national union with a helping of money from TV. The only way to become a very well paid and recognised player is to become a full and successful international - so the incentive is to become the best player you possibly can and hopefully represent the national side.
3. In the countries named in 2. the main competition is free from relegation with the emphasis on the type of game which will provide the best skill development to be able to play both tight and open styles of rugby ( NZ beat Aus with a forward dominated game but had the nous to open up when the possibility arose). England and France play the grind and in the main don't have the vision nor the skills to see and exploit an opportunity.
4. England's Academy does not creat skillful players. Indeed in the England academy set up from 15 onwards the first thing selectors assess are the fitness stats. There is a template for each position in each age group - and there is not one reference to skill set in the template, all the metrics are about athletic attributes. Shane Williams, Leigh Halfpenny, Aaron Crudden and possibly Dan Carter would be rejected as 16 year olds.
5. Players do not have enough game time where learning and executing personal skills are the priority. That's why when the pressure comes on lines of support run, depth of run and sympathy / accuracy of the pass fall down.
6. This is not a rant - my credentials include having coached a number of the young players mentioned in this thread up to them disappearing off into the malaise of England Academy at the age of 16. I still know them well and watch them playing club rugby and wonder where their skills have gone. When I see them and ask how much time they spend working on their left hand passing or experimenting with different support running lines you can guess the answer.
7. Maybe this is a rant - so rant over

 

[j'nuh]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/welsh/15328247.stm

Shaun Edwards pondering Wales future. If MJ goes, the RFU will be idiots for not trying to talk to Shaun Edwards.

 

[McTallshort]

http://menmedia.co.uk/manchestereve...8_diamond-ive-got-a-gem-in-blond-bomber-boris

Just hope he isnt another Tom Rees

 

[Peat]

Why are people suddenly harping on Farrell should play 12? That's about as sensible as calling up Myler to fill in the outside centre channel.

Because he started as a 12, played all his age grade rugby at 12, and is likely to spend more time at 12 than 10 this season for Sarries after Charlie Hodgson got signed.

 

[egg_chaser]

Proper intereesting debate to get involved with here! So depressing to see this year's lack of performance, especially when you look at years and games previous.... I say this as I've been watching loads of old World Cup matches on iTunes, it's wicked. Highlights of all sorts of old games I never thought I'd see again, thought I'd drop the link on here in case any of you are interested, but don't watch too many as you may leave you even more slightly depressed.

Here's the link to them:

itunes.com/uk/rugbyworldcup2011

Really hope Sunday stands up as a final, England improve and Saints win the league
x

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Lewis Moody has retired from International rugby


Who will be captain now? Hopefully Easter and Tindall are both gone as well, so it'd be someone new
Would say Palmer, but he's in France so won't be about - Presumably Hartley would be up at the top of the list as he's Saints captain

Maybe Wood? He should be a nailed on starter at either 6 or 7 for the foreseeable future anyhow - Seen people tout him as future England captain before (same about Croft, though he'll need a serious form injection to keep his place, presuming England try out some new flankers over the coming years, not just bring back Joe Worseley)

 

[Teh Mite]

Wood should be the first choice 7, but you can bet your bottom dollar Haskell will be put there as Wood waits for croft to be injured before having splinters from his arse. There's bound to be a kiwi meanwhile who could play 8...

 

[JW.]

Lewis Moody has retired from International rugby


Who will be captain now? Hopefully Easter and Tindall are both gone as well, so it'd be someone new
Would say Palmer, but he's in France so won't be about - Presumably Hartley would be up at the top of the list as he's Saints captain

Maybe Wood? He should be a nailed on starter at either 6 or 7 for the foreseeable future anyhow - Seen people tout him as future England captain before (same about Croft, though he'll need a serious form injection to keep his place, presuming England try out some new flankers over the coming years, not just bring back Joe Worseley)

Palmer is 2 old I think, I might pick Hartley someone who come the next WC is in his prime.

As for new openside that will all depend on who becomes England manager, Joe Worsley anyone?

 

[Teh Mite]

Worsley, Shaw and Wilkinson will be the keystone players who England MUST rebuild around. You'll see.

 

[JW.]

Worsley, Shaw and Wilkinson will be the keystone players who England MUST rebuild around. You'll see.

Essential.

 

[j'nuh]

Who will be captain now? Hopefully Easter and Tindall are both gone as well, so it'd be someone new
Would say Palmer, but he's in France so won't be about - Presumably Hartley would be up at the top of the list as he's Saints captain

Maybe Wood? He should be a nailed on starter at either 6 or 7 for the foreseeable future anyhow - Seen people tout him as future England captain before (same about Croft, though he'll need a serious form injection to keep his place, presuming England try out some new flankers over the coming years, not just bring back Joe Worseley)

Someone else has said it - Palmer's probably too old. I'd still have him in the England side as an interim lock (since Shaw and Deacon are likely to be dropped for being too old at this point), but it wouldn't be building for the future if we stuck with Palmer as captain. The only case I could see for him being captain is as a temporary captain until Haskell gets back to England (who, if he was available, I'd love to be the captain).

Hartley is really the only player I can think of of the current squad who's both sure of his place and confident enough to take up the captain role, though I'm still worried about his off-field maturity - I'd love to see someone who has the focus of Warburton taking up the captaincy. In an ideal world, Youngs would be getting into the form he has previously been in and improving his decision-making confidence. I think that if he had the captaincy, he could really take control of the forwards and make the link play between forwards and back a lot more smooth than it has been. He sounds confident enough as a person (from interviews I've seen) to take up the role, hasn't been involved in any drama, it's just his decision-making on the pitch I'm concerned about. He has a lot of time to improve this though, and if it isn't too much of a step-up, captaincy might do to him what it did for Warburton. The flip-side is that at this moment, I wouldn't have him in the England starting XV to begin with - he has half a season to put himself in contention though.

The only other person I can think of is Robshaw. I just worry that making him captain will mean that there may be a point when we can't bring an in-form Croft back into the XV because we've made Robshaw the captain.