England Sqaud Announcement

[munstermuffin]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gingergenius @ Jan 13 2010, 08:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (munstermuffin @ Jan 13 2010, 07:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Lads, Englands problem is clear, They aren't getting a settled team and it means not alot can be done elsewhere.

Lets be honest Foden wont play because Johnson see's Armitage as his FB.

Flutey guaranteed centre spot.

Borthwick in 2nd row (where as if he weren't captain he'd struggle to make 22)
Nick Kennedy, Courtney Lawes & in my opinion Skivington(maybe not as clear) have all been better.[/b]

To all the Borthwick haters, why do you think he's so bad? He's a lineout specialist lock, and England's lineout is very good, so he does his job well. Because he's captain, people expect him to do the job of a brute 2nd row as well (like Shaw, or Lawes). Maybe he's not up to O'Connell or Matfield's level, but he's a far better player than Kennedy, and there's no one else after that.

Unless of course you went with Shaw and Lawes in the 2nd row. But then I'd think our lineout would suffer.

Borthwick as captain... he may not be the greatest, but he's as good as we've got. Easter could do it maybe, but he's not certain of his place, and he's also not even captain at Quins. Can't think of anyone in the backline to do it either. If Hartley comes through and establishes himself in the starting XV, maybe he's an option as well.
[/b][/quote]

It not that I don't like him as I do recognize he captain at a bad time but think he just doesnt bring his Sarries form to England and when I was judging maybe that was my fault judging his form agaist others untested form at International level.

And as far as been captain of National team and not club -> Brian O'Driscoll. And when he dropped captaincy of Leinster he just went to a new level.

 

[bristol-iain]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bullitt @ Jan 13 2010, 03:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

He's not put on a 9 shirt since last season.

That said, he's still a better option at 9 the Ellis.[/b]

Harry "I play for Leicester so I play for England" Ellis

Probably 5th best English 9

 

[durbutter]

Sher so did Hayes!!

 

[MunsterMan]

When you factor in Injuries and replacements the squad looks like this:

England 6 Nations Squad:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

T Payne (Wasps),
<strike>A Sheridan (Sale)</strike>, David Flatman (Bath)
<strike>J White (Leicester)</strike>, Dan Cole (Leicester)
D Wilson (Bath),
D Hartley (Northampton),
L Mears (Bath),
S Thompson (Brive);
S Borthwick (Saracens),
L Deacon (Leicester),
C Lawes (Northampton),
S Shaw (Wasps);
J Crane (Leicester),
T Croft (Leicester),
S Armitage (London Irish),
N Easter (Harlequins),
J Haskell (Stade Francais),
L Moody (Leicester).

Backs (15):

D Armitage (London Irish),
B Foden (Northampton);
C Ashton (Northampton - *injury replacement),
M Banahan (Bath),
M Cueto (Sale),
U Monye (Harlequins);
R Flutey (Brive),
S Hape (Bath),
D Hipkiss (Leicester),
M Tait (Sale);
T Flood (Leicester),
J Wilkinson (Toulon);
D Care (Harlequins),
<strike>H Ellis (Leicester)</strike>, Ben Youngs (Leicester)
P Hodgson (London Irish).[/b]

 

[munstermuffin]

I've the Boots in car,
Will I tog ye can give me a pair of shorts

 

[Olyy]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (munstermuffin @ Jan 14 2010, 12:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

I've the Boots in car,
Will I tog ye can give me a pair of shorts [/b]

....wot

 

[MunsterMan]

Might be a reference to the number of non-English players in your squad? I count three Kiwis and two Trinidad/French players

 

[gingergenius]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MunsterMan @ Jan 14 2010, 01:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Might be a reference to the number of non-English players in your squad? I count three Kiwis and two Trinidad/French players [/b]

There's 2 emigrated kiwis and thats it. Hartley has English parents; the Armitages have an English stepdad & have lived in England since youth level.

 

[iWin]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DuncTheDoodle @ Jan 13 2010, 08:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bullitt @ Jan 13 2010, 06:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

He's an "injury replacement for Vickery", actually being a Saxons player.

It's a typical-RFU fiddle to draft in any player they want instead of sticking to the agreed EPS rules.

Nothing to see here, move along...[/b]

So have Wasps moved Vickery to the wing after he proved he can't prop in the Lions?
[/b][/quote]

Yes.

Because of this

So it's from a while ago, and for gloucester, but it just shows what pace he really has

 

[Bullitt]

If you want to be really fussy:

Shaw is Zimbabwean
Stevens (in he inevitable return) is Seth Effriecen
Care comes from the Communist Republic of Yorkshire
Banahan is from Uranus.

 

[Nickdnz]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gingergenius @ Jan 14 2010, 06:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MunsterMan @ Jan 14 2010, 01:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Might be a reference to the number of non-English players in your squad? I count three Kiwis and two Trinidad/French players [/b]

There's 2 emigrated kiwis and thats it. Hartley has English parents; the Armitages have an English stepdad & have lived in England since youth level.
[/b][/quote]
Shontayne Hape, Riki Flutey and Dylan Hartley are all New Zealand born...that's 1 more then 2.

 

[Norfolk Enchants]

Another unfortunate showing of Johnson and the rest of those involved in Englands managements' shortcomings. What sticks out for me...

No Fly Half who can play the game at real pace on the game line, once you dont have this then your backs line is already hindered. Wilkinson was picked before even properly justifying the call, hell he was picked in the squad for the ai's before he'd even played a game for Toulon. So Johnson is basically sending out the message that if you have the name, then you'll always be picked over those in form. I am a fan of Flood but we do still lack a fly half who has both pace and vision, and I actually feel a bit sorry for Cipriani here as its been something like 15 months since he was picked for England, and yes he has character shortcomings but as far as I am concerned he has gotten his head down, not whinged to the press and since his return from injury has shown a lot of what is lacking in the England side at the moment. Not to mention the various other fly half alternatives to a has been who did im afraid to say get shown up in the autumn internationals especially by an out of form Dan Carter.

I dont understand what Dominic Waldouck has to do to get included, we've heard everyone out there harping on about how hes one of English rugbys hottest prospects, and how weak we are in the centre area, yet he is ignored again with a recent rugby league convert in his place. He covers both inside and outside centre comfortably, but Johnson seems to be blinded by this desperate need to pick a big hitter who can only run in a straight line (Tindall, Noon, Erinle) in the centre. Whats blatently going to happen now, is that instead of bleeding him in slowly, instead there is going to be a load of injuries and we will see the same old England thing of just throwing Waldouck in for his debut against the wallabies/all blacks/south africa in a high pressure match...its madness!

Forwards was nothing I didnt expect, same old same old really, no vision for the future of course when I can immediately think of two young props who have been doing brilliantly this season thus far but instead we stick with injured but no risk sheridan and the ageing white.

The lack of taking a slight risk is the reason we went into 2007 with the 8th best squad in the tournament. For all his shortcomings If Woodward hadnt been bold and brought the likes of Wilkinson, Tindall, Vickery etc etc into the England squad at a young age and bled them in rather then throwing them in all of a sudden when injuries required them England wouldnt have arrived at australia in 2003 as the best prepared and balanced side in the tournament

 

[Olyy]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nickdnz @ Jan 14 2010, 09:04 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gingergenius @ Jan 14 2010, 06:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MunsterMan @ Jan 14 2010, 01:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Might be a reference to the number of non-English players in your squad? I count three Kiwis and two Trinidad/French players [/b]

There's 2 emigrated kiwis and thats it. Hartley has English parents; the Armitages have an English stepdad & have lived in England since youth level.
[/b][/quote]
Shontayne Hape, Riki Flutey and Dylan Hartley are all New Zealand born...that's 1 more then 2.
[/b][/quote]
Hartley doesn't count because he qualified anyway, he didn't have to wait for residency grounds

And you're one to talk, how many pacific islanders play for the All Blacks?
(The answers 4 atm, i counted)

 

[Bullitt]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Olyy @ Jan 14 2010, 09:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nickdnz @ Jan 14 2010, 09:04 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gingergenius @ Jan 14 2010, 06:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MunsterMan @ Jan 14 2010, 01:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Might be a reference to the number of non-English players in your squad? I count three Kiwis and two Trinidad/French players [/b]

There's 2 emigrated kiwis and thats it. Hartley has English parents; the Armitages have an English stepdad & have lived in England since youth level.
[/b][/quote]
Shontayne Hape, Riki Flutey and Dylan Hartley are all New Zealand born...that's 1 more then 2.
[/b][/quote]
Hartley doesn't count because he qualified anyway, he didn't have to wait for residency grounds

And you're one to talk, how many pacific islanders play for the All Blacks?
(The answers 4 atm, i counted)
[/b][/quote]


You sure that's not "counted 4 Kiwis in the ABs"?

 

[monkeypigeon]

Say what you like about picking Flutey and saying that he's English, I can see how people would get over than (though I wouldn't like it one bit if I were English), but picking Hape is just BLA. It's making me really hate the residency rule.

1. He's not that good.

2. You've got a load of better centres hangin' about. Waldouk, Hipkiss, Turner-Hall even Tait or Geraghty.

3. All the above are younger,

3. By alot,

4. The guy already has a bundle of rugby league caps...so you can't go claiming the 'oh but he might be all in love with English culture and deep down he's English really...SEND HER VICTORIOUS, HAPPY AND GLORIOUS...no really he's pretty much Englished himself up... WELL WE'RE MULTICULTURAL NOW AIN'T WE?". Maybe I'll buy into some of the residency players being loyal to their new national team...don't buy it here.

5. Most of the above mentioned players mentioned are around 22 years old. But they all have more experience playing rugby union than him despite the 6 rear age difference.

6. The highest level he's played is the heineken cup...with a team that's lost to Edinburgh and Ulster and Stade....and scraped one victory. Yeah, the rugby league convert is definitely more ready than Hipkiss who's played in Heineken Cup finals and has a cap or two already. And Turner-Hall (i just remembered he's slightly injured...but looking at the squad, fitness doesn't seem a selection factor) who's been in a Heineken Cup semi final.


As a (not) Englishman, I am outraged. :%#%#:

 

[Olyy]

I agree, Hape shouldn't be anywhere near an England shirt. If you represent a country at international level then it should count across the board, not just for one sport

 

[Bullitt]

The Paul family really should keep their chuffing mouths shut about Rugby Union after Henrys exploits.

Robbie Paul speaks with a mouthful of Hape cock


Actually, BBC are so far up Hapes butthole you'd think he's a cousin of Cipriani - 4 Articles on the homepage!

 

[Bullitt]

Will Carlings take on the squad, he makes some interesting points;

http://rucku.com/pg/blog/willc/read/415986...x-nations-squad

THis quote alone sums up Martin Johnson's approach to England selection as should be read and re-read by any England player hoping for a long career under his Management;

"It's about what you do when you're in there, it's about what you show to the group, how you handle yourself, how you train and the commitment you show," said Johnson"

So much of Johnson's approach is based on how the player behaves, his attitude, his commitment and that counts for a huge amount in his eyes. It has many pluses and is admirable in it's simplicity as a template on which to base a team, but there does need to be flexibility. If we operated this dictum in my day, a certain Jerry Guscott would not have passed the test and England would have missed out on one of it's great players. What did Jerry 'show' the group - lots of attitude, petulance at times and irritability! How did he handle himself, at times very badly indeed and his commitment at times on the training filed was nothing short of a joke! And yet he was special, and due to that he had to be 'managed' in a different way.

This is my major concern with the Johnson management, the flexibility, or lack of it, in management style. Because Martin was a tough, committed player of awesome ability, he was very easy to manage and he had an intensity of focus on playing and training that could be unerving. However there are players who can produce superb performances, but do not handle themselves in line with Johnson's blueprint (Guscott being one!) Does that mean that they will never get picked, that the management approach is so fixed and unbending that plenty of talent will miss out??

Even in Johnson's World Cup winning team, the likes of Dallaglio and Dawson were characters who liked a laugh, liked a beer - bloody hell Leonard was the king of that - and yet produced sublime performances in the England shirt. They were characters, they had opinions and voiced them and they did not toe the party line - and neither did Johnson himself!

So when I look at the squad, I am happy to see Foden and Tait, relieved to see Lawes still there, but confused to see Ellis? Stunned to still see Banahan, Deacon, Crane, Payne and White still there too?? Is it because they are good squad guys, train hard and show total commitment to the cause? Much as I admire that and agree that it is one of the crucial pillars to squad success, surely the ability to play and make an impact at Test level is also crucial?

And how much to read into the Captaincy vacancy?? I think very little, as I am convinced that Johnson will make Borthwick captain again - he is not a man who likes to admit to mistakes and he is stubborn in the extreme! A little PR exercise to make the media believe he is really looking at the position me thinks.....

So in summary, pleased to see some young faces, exciting talent, in the squad, my hope is that the management create an exciting/ challenging environment that allows them to fulfill and express that talent. Selecting them is just the first step, enabling them to fulfill their potential on the field is the key stage that this coaching team need to crack now...

 

[GJ#1]

I reckon Hape will be a good player for England. But is he ready to make a step up?

I agree with Carling, Johnson in my eyes is picking his mates and the likes of White and Payne are simply not good enough to help England. Flatman for me is one of the most underrated props in rugby. Bloke has soul and for me should be starting and playing for England along with Wilson!

 

[Olyy]

Carling's hit the nail on the head there.
They should switch him and Johnson