England V Wales - 29th May

[ncurd]

Players found wanting at international level shouldn't be considered unless they prove they to have something new to their armoury. Goode has not done this.

A bit like Banahan he'll be excellent for Bath doesn't mean he should be playing for England ever again.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Goode has had a good season, but I think the plaudits coming his way just as much reflect Brown's ordinary year.

We need new blood in the 15 shirt. I'm inclined to subscribe to the "Goode's a top club player but...." school of thought. Time to have a proper look at Watson, ideally, or Nowell there.

 

[spartan32]

I'm not sure Goode has been given enough of a chance at international to show what he can do. He has been pretty impressive in the Prem. This season, very composed and often beating several defenders on the counter, with a very good kicking game and great under the high ball. I've never been a big fan but after this season he needs a chance to start against a top team.

And I'm not sure the pace thing can be argued, Brown isn't exactly that fast.

Watson and Nowell are both big counter attacking threats, the question is can their shoes be filled well enough by the likes of Yard, Wade and May? I guess Yard will get his chance to show us.

In any event in pretty happy with the options available to us in the back three, and the back line in general at moment. Hopefully EJ can continue to develop these lads into a really potent attacking threat.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-un...er-tour-warm-up-test-is-an-insult-to-the-sup/

Couldn't agree more.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-un...er-tour-warm-up-test-is-an-insult-to-the-sup/

Couldn't agree more.

Bit of a over reaction TBH.

I mean isn't really thinking about it TBh.

Whilst a Warm up game would be great England would be leaving half it's team in England for the AP final.

Bennett goes on about players being flogged but Alot of the players would of been potentially expect to play in the final should they have gotten there (Esp Wasps, Tigers players).

I mean I would of preferred a game in Manchester V a team like Georgia or Romanina but
1) Both those teams would be missing top 14 stars
2) Prob not the biggest of draws in place not quite rugby centric.

For me Wales V England in Manchester would of been a decent warm up for the summer tours.

or maybe it should of been a England v Premiership select 23 of players like say
1) Waller
2) Heywood
3) Afoa
4) Symons
5) Evans
6) Garvey
7) Wallace
8) Morgan
9) Stringer
10) Evans
11) Addison
12) Eastmond
13) Leota
14) Heem
15) Pennell

16) Ward
17) Franks
18) Jones
19) Robinson
20) Ioane
21) Cook
22) Hanrahan
23) Hammersley

(Note no top 4 players in that, imagine adding the likes of Smith, Hughes, Betham, CP, Halai Veainu, Goneva, etc)
And play it in a rugbyish area like the midlands (Rioch) or something.

 

[Peat]

I'm not sure Goode has been given enough of a chance at international to show what he can do. He has been pretty impressive in the Prem. This season, very composed and often beating several defenders on the counter, with a very good kicking game and great under the high ball. I've never been a big fan but after this season he needs a chance to start against a top team.

And I'm not sure the pace thing can be argued, Brown isn't exactly that fast.

Watson and Nowell are both big counter attacking threats, the question is can their shoes be filled well enough by the likes of Yard, Wade and May? I guess Yard will get his chance to show us.

In any event in pretty happy with the options available to us in the back three, and the back line in general at moment. Hopefully EJ can continue to develop these lads into a really potent attacking threat.

He's had 13 starts including a full 6N and starts against all the SANZAR teams. How many chances does he need?

Brown beats people, so he's clearly fast enough to beat people, unlike Goode, who doesn't, nor does he show pace in any other area. That said, I'd prefer it if our next full-back was faster than Brown, because he is on the slow side for an international full-back.

 

[Every Time Ref]

I'm in the "good club player, not an international" camp - he's Banahan at a more fashionable club.

The Goode hype is just coming from a) journalists, who have always loved him for some reason, Sarries must have a really nice press box; and b) people who've noticed Brown's form dropping and are looking for an alternative.

There are two players already in the starting side who can play fullback and have proven they've got the chops for international rugby, Nowell and Watson. If Brown is to be replaced (which I am in favour of), it needs to be one of those.

 

[FrenchFan]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-un...er-tour-warm-up-test-is-an-insult-to-the-sup/

Article has a point - unions are hypocrites, it's Ok for them to make money but players seeking good contracts with a big club boohoo

This is all about MONEY. Same reason why Georgia and Romania have been left out of 6N. Yet T2 nations can only develop and become T1 by playing T1 nations regularly.

Fra v Georgia or Eng v Romania aren't juicy enough games to sell.

moneymoneymoney

 

[welshglory]

Chris Pennell seems to be the forgotten man, shame that.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Chris Pennell seems to be the forgotten man, shame that.

Not forgotten just getting on a bit and not playing in the top half of the league.

He is 30 next season and has played in 1 England game so far and has zero experience in the champions cup.

Loyalty was his biggest down fall unfortunately, if he had gone to bigger club when Wuss where relegated i genuinely believe Lancaster would of picked him throughout the 2014/15 season which would of made him more of an option for Eddie.

 

[Peat]

Bit of a over reaction TBH.

I mean isn't really thinking about it TBh.

Innit. I'm thinking "Should be a fun game".

Yes, it is being done for money... *shrugs* The sinews of war are infinite money. English rugby needs money, I want England rugby to succeed, I'll live with it. It probably is a bit hypocritical, but as most people tend to make decisions based on money, whatevs.

 

[Willodell100]

I'm in the "good club player, not an international" camp - he's Banahan at a more fashionable club.

The Goode hype is just coming from a) journalists, who have always loved him for some reason, Sarries must have a really nice press box; and b) people who've noticed Brown's form dropping and are looking for an alternative.

There are two players already in the starting side who can play fullback and have proven they've got the chops for international rugby, Nowell and Watson. If Brown is to be replaced (which I am in favour of), it needs to be one of those.

I'm in none of the above categories and think he should still be given another shot at the 15 shirt.

Yes he hasn't lit up the world so far in an England shirt but his game has improved a lot since 2013.

He might not be able to beat players like a Folau or Smith but he brings other players into the game better than any other full back in the northern hemisphere. His positioning, more often that not, makes up for his so called 'lack of pace'. He is the form 15 in the league and should start ahead of Brown who has been average for club and country for quite a while now.

 

[AzaMatt]

Innit. I'm thinking "Should be a fun game".

Yes, it is being done for money... *shrugs* The sinews of war are infinite money. English rugby needs money, I want England rugby to succeed, I'll live with it. It probably is a bit hypocritical, but as most people tend to make decisions based on money, whatevs.

i dont see the problem with it, its obviously for money but unless the players are bothered then i dont see an issue. we get another international to watch. might not be as intense as the six nations but its always a step up from club rugby.

 

[welshglory]

Not forgotten just getting on a bit and not playing in the top half of the league.

He is 30 next season and has played in 1 England game so far and has zero experience in the champions cup.

Loyalty was his biggest down fall unfortunately, if he had gone to bigger club when Wuss where relegated i genuinely believe Lancaster would of picked him throughout the 2014/15 season which would of made him more of an option for Eddie.

Can't disagree with your points. I still believe he would add substantially more competition for the fullback shirt going into the next world cup than Goode or Watson. I guess looking forward at the moment they're looking at Haley, Watson and Nowell to be Brown's successor

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Can't disagree with your points. I still believe he would add substantially more competition for the fullback shirt than Goode or Watson. I guess looking forward at the moment they're looking at Haley, Watson and Nowell to be Brown's successor

I agree he should be in the setup but the moment has passed unfortunately.

Haley certainly looks like a very interesting bolter from the names mentioned.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-un...er-tour-warm-up-test-is-an-insult-to-the-sup/

Couldn't agree more.

I expected it to say "Super Rugby Sides" because we're not playing a mid-week, but supporters?
Nah.

Says that that melted welly is a gold correspondent, as well - why is he commenting on Rugby?

 

[Which Tyler]

Players found wanting at international level shouldn't be considered unless they prove they to have something new to their armoury. Goode has not done this.

I basically agree with this. Once proven not to be able to step up to international class; you need to have shown that you've (successfully) changed those parts of your game that let you down.
Goode is a very good club level player; but let down by his head-on tackling, pace, and his desire to dance instead of risking contact.
I hear from those who Sarries more than I that he's addressed the dancing part - but for me, he needs to cure at least 2 of those 3 failings before getting another chance at international level. Watson for me (given that he actually plays full back); though I like the idea of Nowell getting some game-time there (or OC).

As for Pennell - if Roko is deemed too old at 28 and without a career's worth of accumulated injuries and ****les; then Pennell has to be too. Personally I think that if they're the best available now, then they should get a shot; 31/32 isn't too bad at the RWC19, even for an outside back. I can see a good reason for not having both of them though - succession planning means you don't want 2 of your back 3 dropping out at the same time.
Personally, I'd play Watson, Nowell and Roko as my back 3; with one of Daly/JJ/Manu in the 23 shirt.

 

[welshglory]

Article has a point - unions are hypocrites, it's Ok for them to make money but players seeking good contracts with a big club boohoo

This is all about MONEY. Same reason why Georgia and Romania have been left out of 6N. Yet T2 nations can only develop and become T1 by playing T1 nations regularly.

Fra v Georgia or Eng v Romania aren't juicy enough games to sell.

moneymoneymoney

Unions are hypocrites but in the case of England in particular they need as much money as possible to keep themselves financially dominant and holding power over the clubs so they don't get a situation like there is in France. If they start selecting expat players they start to lose grip.

 

[j'nuh]

I know this isn't supposed to be the point of the article, but I like Chitty Chitty Bang Bang. Me Ol' Bamboo is a classic.

 

[Every Time Ref]

I'm in none of the above categories and think he should still be given another shot at the 15 shirt.

Yes he hasn't lit up the world so far in an England shirt but his game has improved a lot since 2013.

He might not be able to beat players like a Folau or Smith but he brings other players into the game better than any other full back in the northern hemisphere. His positioning, more often that not, makes up for his so called 'lack of pace'. He is the form 15 in the league and should start ahead of Brown who has been average for club and country for quite a while now.

Specifically what areas of his game has he improved? I haven't seen as much club rugby as I'd have liked this year so am going on second hand news a lot, but I just don't see him improving the areas of his game which stopped him stepping up. He's always been good for Sarries, and bad for England. What is different about his form for Sarries this season which makes the step up possible where it wasn't before?

His positioning is pretty good, although I take issue that it makes up for his lack of pace at international level, where the game moves faster. More importantly, good positioning doesn't help him beat the first man, and neither does that godawful "sidestep" he has.