England vs Argentina - 06/11/22

[ncurd]

I wouldn't disagree with much of what you've written, but my point is that Argentina played better and smarter than England without needing to play well.

They won by a point and mostly through England giving them momentum. It wasn't forced errors at all. As noted apart from Turnovers they didn't come on top on any stat that's not a team playing better or smarter it's getting lucky.

As England fans we've seen plenty of examples over the past couple of years when we've been shocking and somehow won.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I take rugby stats with a huge pinch of salt.

Nonetheless (bar turnovers conceded) the tale of the tape is that we should have won that easily.

You can argue that commanding possession / territory / metres run is a solid foundation that can / should be built on, but we've been down that road before with England.

Worth noting that in their clouting of Wal, NZ only got 52% possession and 46% territory. They won the metres run by a chunk although their 396 was short of England's 427. NZ conceded 12 turnovers but won 13 so +1. We conceded 14 but only won 8 so -6. OK the Argies didn't have much ball, but you still wonder why our best breakdown exponent was kicking his heels for so long on the bench.

Huff and puff will only get you so far. Brains and awareness count for more.

 

[ncurd]

I take rugby stats with a huge pinch of salt.

Nonetheless (bar turnovers conceded) the tale of the tape is that we should have won that easily.

You can argue that commanding possession / territory / metres run is a solid foundation that can / should be built on, but we've been down that road before with England.

Worth noting that in their clouting of Wal, NZ only got 52% possession and 46% territory. They won the metres run by a chunk although their 396 was short of England's 427. NZ conceded 12 turnovers but won 13 so +1. We conceded 14 but only won 8 so -6. OK the Argies didn't have much ball, but you still wonder why our best breakdown exponent was kicking his heels for so long on the bench.

Huff and puff will only get you so far. Brains and awareness count for more.

Stats only take you so far but if people want to state what Argentina's amazing game plan to win by 1 point was I'm all ears.

Yeah I mean you look at some of those stats like 7 offloads to 1, clean breaks 4 to 2 and defender beaten 17 to 6, 427 meters made to 157

You have parity on penalties conceded.

How the hell are England not running away with that game? Its not an immense defensive effort or attacking from Argentina, they aren't winning on territory either from kicking from hand with less procession. You have to conclude England shat the bed in both attack and defence at critical moments.

 

[Reiser99]

Both teams played poorly. But Argentina took their opportunities and took advantage of England's poor discipline as well as producing the best try of the game.

The real issue is how England aren't winning with those stats. Also how many of the penalties England gave away were kickable, because it seemed like most?

 

[ncurd]

Both teams played poorly. But Argentina took their opportunities and took advantage of England's poor discipline as well as producing the best try of the game.

The real issue is how England aren't winning with those stats. Also how many of the penalties England gave away were kickable, because it seemed like most?

10 penalties conceded, each. We only had 5 we took as kicks and the took 6. So its a 3 point margin.

However the real key thing is they got 6 kicks with 20% less territory and 26% less procession. So its not were giving away kickable penalties more than anyone else over the course of a game but the fact we do it under far less pressure.

 

[Crash Hamster]

Possession and territory stats are odd things. Keep scoring a try off first phase and you won't have the ball for very long. Once you've scored, it's kicked back into your defensive half.

The two Argentina tries were off first phase and zero'th phase (if you will). England had the ball, huffed and puffed, but lacked anyone with the nous to make a decent break*. I guess having a glacially slow SH and an IC who shovels **** will do that to you.

* 2m, then setting up a ruck doesn't count. See Tectonic Youngs, above.

 

[HamJan]

They won by a point and mostly through England giving them momentum. It wasn't forced errors at all. As noted apart from Turnovers they didn't come on top on any stat that's not a team playing better or smarter it's getting lucky.

As England fans we've seen plenty of examples over the past couple of years when we've been shocking and somehow won.

Again, I'm not saying that the Argies played well but they adapted to the game better than England and deserved their win. Previously, when England have found a way of winning yet been behind on stats, they've generally been applauded for 'finding a way to win' so I have no problem applauding Argentina in this instance. Did they ride their luck? Probably, but that's what good teams do.

 

[ncurd]

they've generally been applauded for 'finding a way to win'

You've not been reading match threads on here very often have you?

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Again, I'm not saying that the Argies played well but they adapted to the game better than England and deserved their win. Previously, when England have found a way of winning yet been behind on stats, they've generally been applauded for 'finding a way to win' so I have no problem applauding Argentina in this instance. Did they ride their luck? Probably, but that's what good teams do.

Most people on here have no applauded at all. Most have said that the lack of decent tactics and selection will come t bite us……just like it has.

Most people on here also don't rate mako as a scrummager, think Youngs is too slow, think Farrell is not a good 12. They also think that you should have a sensible bench and that out of form players arnt as good as in form players but what do we know, apart from being proven correct constantly.

 

[HamJan]

You've not been reading match threads on here very often have you?

Is this the only forum for reading about England?

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I think grinding out a win away from home, against a team you haven't beaten in over 10 years is commendable. It's not like that was Argentina's best performance this year. (I don't think you could say anyone produced their best this weekend as an aside) and they're definitely an opportunistic team generally.

A win like that is encouraging for Argentina, you do have to win ugly from time to time but when it comes habitual it's the sign of a downward trend as clearly described here by England fans.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Is this the only forum for reading about England?

Yes. If you go anywhere else you will be banned and excommunicated by the pope so I hear.

 

[AlRums]

I think grinding out a win away from home, against a team you haven't beaten in over 10 years is commendable. It's not like that was Argentina's best performance this year. (I don't think you could say anyone produced their best this weekend as an aside) and they're definitely an opportunistic team generally.

A win like that is encouraging for Argentina, you do have to win ugly from time to time but when it comes habitual it's the sign of a downward trend as clearly described here by England fans.

Let's not forget that Argentina also beat the All Blacks in their own backyard as well

 

[Which Tyler]

Just keep an eye on Jack.

How old were you guys when you were taught to play the whistle?
He doesn't even need to stop and appeal to the ref, as Faz is already doing that bit. He should see that an Argentinian has a free line to his try line, and he's the last Englishman who can do anything about it - even if he isn't the quickest, he's the only real chance.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Just keep an eye on Jack.

How old were you guys when you were taught to play the whistle?
He doesn't even need to stop and appeal to the ref, as Faz is already doing that bit. He should see that an Argentinian has a free line to his try line, and he's the last Englishman who can do anything about it - even if he isn't the quickest, he's the only real chance.

Maybe they didn't chase because they didn't want everyone to see how pathetically slow they both are and an embarrassment to English backs?

 

[Crash Hamster]

Just keep an eye on Jack.

How old were you guys when you were taught to play the whistle?
He doesn't even need to stop and appeal to the ref, as Faz is already doing that bit. He should see that an Argentinian has a free line to his try line, and he's the last Englishman who can do anything about it - even if he isn't the quickest, he's the only real chance.

"BuT Ma ExPeNsIVe rUgBy LeEg DeFeNCE cOaCh"

"Aw mate"

That's genuinely embarrassing for Farrell (who has form for spending time whining at the ref) and especially Jack "could play at flanker" Nowell. If only we'd picked a winger who could do the fast running.

 

[BrokenWing]

He doesn't even need to stop and appeal to the ref, as Faz is already doing that bit.

Neither of them should be appealing.

 

[Crash Hamster]

Also, first try...

That's the much-vaunted England midfield L-R Nowell, Tuilagi, Farrell, Smith, in about 15 feet.

Narrow, so very very narrow. Yes it's a good move, but that is absolutely dreadful off first phase.

I should probably stop caring now.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

If it was Sexton complaining the ref would have given a deliberate knock on and yellow card. Levels.

 

[Scotty]

Maybe they didn't chase because they didn't want everyone to see how pathetically slow they both are and an embarrassment to English backs?

Exactly much more chance of appealing and getting the ref to call it back than Faz actually catch someone. But no i hate when players stop and appeal.

Honestly i was glad when the ref let play go on, good to see the ref letting it play out then checking.