England vs Argentina - 06/11/22

[Vieux Talonneur]

Fair play. But do you think the coaching set up does seem to favour lumps over lithe?

It favours League over Union.

 

[Wendigo7]

We said the same about Andy Robinson.

I'd say there's a (very) strong argument for following the same game-plan, replace Eddie with an attack oriented coach nearing retirement (AKA Wayne Smith). An advantage of Wayne (if he'd take the role) is that he's available to take over immediately.

The trouble is - can the RFU afford to buy out Eddie's contract?

Bill Sweeney like Eddie though. They go hand in hand.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I'd actually bite your hand off for Eddie Jones on a 1 year rolling contract to take us into the WC if it meant we could get rid of Pivac.

Annoyingly Jones seems to be good for 1 or 2 years, it's beyond that his teams notoriously fall apart and then don't recover.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Annoyingly Jones seems to be good for 1 or 2 years, it's beyond that his teams notoriously fall apart and then don't recover.

Yeah this is my thinking. Sadly it won't be the WRU's.

 

[ncurd]

Yeah this is my thinking. Sadly it won't be the WRU's.

The real question for Wales do they haver the nuts and bolts to actually go further in RWC than a basic projection would suggest.

Should get out their group, likely face England or Argentina in the QF whom they can already beat then a SF against NZ, SA, Fra or Ire all of whom you'd not give them a chance.

England are in the same boat mind I think a new coach might get them to a Final but I can't see how EJ can screw up so badly to not make the QF and should go one beyond with the right amount of luck.

 

[Welsh Exile]

The real question for Wales do they haver the nuts and bolts to actually go further in RWC than a basic projection would suggest.

Should get out their group, likely face England or Argentina in the QF whom they can already beat then a SF against NZ, SA, Fra or Ire all of whom you'd not give them a chance.

England are in the same boat mind I think a new coach might get them to a Final but I can't see how EJ can screw up so badly to not make the QF and should go one beyond with the right amount of luck.

Wouldn't our semi final be against England or Australia?

Considering how favourable our draw is (unlikely to be this favourable again) we should be in the position we're we've got about 80% chance of getting to the semis and then a real shot of getting to a final.

As it stands I genuinely can't seen us getting out of the group and even if we do Argentina/England will beat us in the qtr final more than likely.

 

[ncurd]

Wouldn't our semi final be against England or Australia?

Considering how favourable our draw is (unlikely to be this favourable again) we should be in the position we're we've got about 80% chance of getting to the semis and then a real shot of getting to a final.

As it stands I genuinely can't seen us getting out of the group and even if we do Argentina/England will beat us in the qtr final more than likely.

No winners and runners up go into different halves of the bracket. Its why Aus/Eng/Arg/Wal have a fairly easy SF route compared to the other half where nobody would give them a chance against the other group sides on current for.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

The real question for Wales do they haver the nuts and bolts to actually go further in RWC than a basic projection would suggest.

Should get out their group, likely face England or Argentina in the QF whom they can already beat then a SF against NZ, SA, Fra or Ire all of whom you'd not give them a chance.

England are in the same boat mind I think a new coach might get them to a Final but I can't see how EJ can screw up so badly to not make the QF and should go one beyond with the right amount of luck.

This is the worst part, Jones has arguably the most talented set of English players that we have produced in decades and is squandering them. Wales don't really have the same player base, their golden generation is now the olden generation. Whilst another coach could potentially turn Wales around, their player base simply isn't going through a great patch. I'd say what we are going through is even worse than Wales, there really is no excuse for how ****-poor Jones has these players playing.

 

[BPM]

I think we are all in agreement that Jones needs to go. This won't happen until after the RWC. What does absolutely infuriate me is his inability to select on form or even ability. I think Eddie is better when he has a small pool of players where he doesn't have the option to change continually. This worked well for Japan and Aus (who obviously have a bigger pool than Japan but smaller than Eng)
With this in mind what changes would we like to see to this XV?

For starters I'm fed up of locks at flanker. It may work for other nations, but out results would suggest not. Try any of earl, T hill or J Willis at 6 - Agree
Billy is past it at 8. Tackle techniques have improved greatly meaning brute strength is nothing with either footwork or off loads. He does neither, plenty of alternative options - I agree to a point but I wouldn't be so quick to bin Billy off. The alternative options are either unproven at test level (Dombrandt/Simmonds) and in Mercer's case unavailable. I would have liked to have seen Dombrandt get more chances and Tom Willis in ahead of Simmonds, but it's not like there is an obvious, ready made option to drop in at 8.
Ben Young's, should of been binned after the Last RWC - Agree. However, none of the players who look best placed to replace him were (JvP, Quirke and Mitchell) were realistic options 3yrs ago. Care or Robson would almost certainly have been better options in 2020/2021, but they still would have been placeholders and I can't actually fault Eddie on who he's picked now.
Farrel needs to play at 10 or not at all. He is very poor inside centre
Manu if he stays fit for more than game, move to inside centre and play him alongside someone with pace at 13. - Agree

Nowell, love the guy but nowhere near these days. Let's have a look at arundall when fit. - Agree. In Eddie's defence, there's a good chance he would have been picked had he not been injured. He already did 'have a look' in Australia.

Steward needs to more than catch the odd bomb. The lad is 6 foot 5 and 17 stone, why aren't we at least twice a game isolating smaller wingers against him with a X field kick ? As NZ did with J Barrett - Agree

I shared some responses in bold.

I'd like to see a real shake up in the backs. Marchant and Lawrence should be in the squad. It's frankly ridiculous they're not.

While I appreciate the need for some experience, Nowell doesn't bring enough to justify it being him. I'd keep May and Watson involved but play Murley, Hassell-Collins or Radwan (in that order) on one of the wings. Freeman over Cokanasiga on the other.

Cowan-Dickie is overrated and I'd much prefer McGuigan. We miss Jamie George's consistency and reliability when he's not available.

 

[Welsh Exile]

No winners and runners up go into different halves of the bracket. Its why Aus/Eng/Arg/Wal have a fairly easy SF route compared to the other half where nobody would give them a chance against the other group sides on current for.

View attachment 15397

Ahhh, my bad. Yeah, that's a fair point re getting a team like France, NZ and/ or Ireland who are a clear level or 3 above us at present. I'd take a semi final against SA though as they don't attack like the ABs, French or Irish do and we haven't got some mental block as far as the South Africans are concerned.

As I said thigh, not a chance in hell we get to the semis anyway and I'm going to put a decent sized bet on Wales to crash out of the group due to losing to Fiji like 2007 all over again.

 

[BPM]

The real question for Wales do they haver the nuts and bolts to actually go further in RWC than a basic projection would suggest.

Should get out their group, likely face England or Argentina in the QF whom they can already beat then a SF against NZ, SA, Fra or Ire all of whom you'd not give them a chance.

England are in the same boat mind I think a new coach might get them to a Final but I can't see how EJ can screw up so badly to not make the QF and should go one beyond with the right amount of luck.

Well we will get a bit of insight next week. I really wouldn't say beating Japan is a foregone conclusion right now.

Even if we do lose, results now won't mean a great deal when the tournament kicks off. However, I definitely wouldn't dismiss the possibility that we won't make it out of the group if things don't drastically improve.

A bit of luck and we could get to the semis, but we could also crash and burn badly if we don't take Argentina and Japan incredibly seriously.

 

[Crash Hamster]

At times yes very much so.

I dont get the continued insistance on Manu and Cokasaniga. Both have failed to perform at the prem for any decent continued period for a long time but shoehorned in when ever fit.

I would honestly take a host of our young wingers over Coka...Freeman, Sleightholme, Loader, OHC, Radwan, Murley, Thorley etc etc.

OHC is listed as 6' 3.5 and 15st 8.

Though Cokanasiga is marginally taller and nearly 2.5 stone heavier, OHC is quite a lump.

A sidestepping, tackle-making, try-scoring, sinuous running, in form, soft-handed lump.

 

[LIONSxv]

OHC is listed as 6' 3.5 and 15st 8.

Though Cokanasiga is marginally taller and nearly 2.5 stone heavier, OHC is quite a lump.

A sidestepping, tackle-making, try-scoring, sinuous running, in form, soft-handed lump.

Yet another example of a player that would walk into most international setups yet ignored by Eddie as he doesn't like one area of his game.
So many good players just ignored without validation. Im sure we could name an ignored XV if properly coached would beat several of the world's top ten. He really is squandering the most talented pool we have had in twenty years.

 

[Crash Hamster]

Yet another example of a player that would walk into most international setups yet ignored by Eddie as he doesn't like one area of his game.
So many good players just ignored without validation. Im sure we could name an ignored XV if properly coached would beat several of the world's top ten. He really is squandering the most talented pool we have had in twenty years.

And it's probably something like "doesn't provide a third option in the lineout".

I could understand if nowhere in England were there a few players with nice hair, swift feet, a decent boot, an ability to tackle, catch and pass. There have been occasions where we've had no-one of any special merit wearing a number with double digits on the back. This isn't one of them. Boils my ****.

 

[Geordie]

OHC is listed as 6' 3.5 and 15st 8.

Though Cokanasiga is marginally taller and nearly 2.5 stone heavier, OHC is quite a lump.

A sidestepping, tackle-making, try-scoring, sinuous running, in form, soft-handed lump.

Absolutely...size on its own is nothing..its about power development. Coka just doesnt seem to produce it for me...Manu can but we barely get to see it as hes always on the physio table.

i always thought Thorley was a good example...tall but not the bulkiest... he had the pace and power to break tackles aswell as go round the defenders.

Cristian Cullen the great AB was another...small in stature but could bench press 170kg which made him pound for pound ratio the strongest in the AB squad at the time. So combining his speed and strength made him one fo the greats.

Coka just doesnt produce that...and if they think they're getting another Lomu...sorry not happening.

 

[BrokenWing]

I think Eddie is better when he has a small pool of players where he doesn't have the option to change continually.

I don't think changing continually is a criticism that can be levelled at Eddie, much the opposite.

 

[BPM]

Yet another example of a player that would walk into most international setups yet ignored by Eddie as he doesn't like one area of his game.
So many good players just ignored without validation. Im sure we could name an ignored XV if properly coached would beat several of the world's top ten. He really is squandering the most talented pool we have had in twenty years.

I agree to a point. I don't know about 'walk into most international set ups' though. He's good, but not that good.

Depending upon your definition of 'ignored', it's reasonably hard to do a decent XV. If we're going for a fairly loose definition i.e. called-up but (currently) uncapped/not picked in a match day squad, dropped for no reason or in-form but not selected, you could have.

1. Marler* / Rapava-Ruskin
2. McGuigan
3. Cole
4. Robinson / Tizard
5. Launchbury
6. Hill
7. Earl / Pearson
8. Dombrandt
9. Care
10. Atkinson / Bailey
11. Murley
12. Lawrence
13. Marchant
14. Hassell-Collins / Radwan
15. Daly / Malins

That's a good set of players but

If we're going for actually ignored - I'm defining that as previous interest but no cap or call up in the past year or so, it's quite a lot harder:

1. Marler
2. Dunn
3. Cole
4. Wells
5. Launchbury
6. Hill
7. Ludlow
8. Chick
9. Robson
10. Atkinson / Bailey
11. Bassett
12. Lawrence
13. Northmore
14. Loader
15. Parton

*We don't actually know if Marler is being ignored or whether he's asked not to be considered.

 

[HamJan]

On the plus side, last time Argentina beat us at HQ, we got a new coach to take us to a RWC final.

Wayne Smith's not doing anything after next week

England vs Argentina - Match Statistics - International Test Match 2022 - 5 Nov, 2022 - ESPN

Get a summary of the England vs Argentina, International Test Match 2022 5 Nov, 2022 rugby match.

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I'm unsure how you look at any of that and say Argentina played well compared to Engl

England vs Argentina - Match Statistics - International Test Match 2022 - 5 Nov, 2022 - ESPN

Get a summary of the England vs Argentina, International Test Match 2022 5 Nov, 2022 rugby match.

www.espn.co.uk

I'm unsure how you look at any of that and say Argentina played well compared to England.

But they did play well compared to England. How many times do you see international sides enjoy less possession and territory than the opposition, yet come away with a win? They defended well and converted both opportunities into points. I just wish that England's attack was as fluent and dynamic as the Argies.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

But they did play well compared to England. How many times do you see international sides enjoy less possession and territory than the opposition, yet come away with a win? They defended well and converted both opportunities into points. I just wish that England's attack was as fluent and dynamic as the Argies.

TBH I don't think they played well at all. Their first try was well worked but otherwise they really weren't in the game short of England making errors. England were able to make ground and get up field without Argentinian errors (even though there were many) whilst Argentina pretty much relied solely on England stupid errors to win. I hate saying it because I think winning by taking advantage of your opponents stupid errors is still a perfectly legitimate win but Argentina really didn't play well by any stretch of the imagination. We just happened to absolutely **** the bed at crucial moments with some seriously braindead decision making. The number of times England are getting caught out when the backs are under pressure and simply lob no look passes or try to shovel the ball on. Farrell is one of the prime culprits here, when he is put under pressure, his instinct is to chuck the ball away as fast as possible. How many rucks was he at the bottom of in possession? I don't think it happened once in the entire game. Literally every other player took the ball into contact at least once, not Farrell.

Farrell needs to either be at 10 or not on the field. He is a liability at 12 as he puts those both inside and outside him under additional pressure because he offer zero threat ball in hand himself.

 

[HamJan]

TBH I don't think they played well at all. Their first try was well worked but otherwise they really weren't in the game short of England making errors. England were able to make ground and get up field without Argentinian errors (even though there were many) whilst Argentina pretty much relied solely on England stupid errors to win. I hate saying it because I think winning by taking advantage of your opponents stupid errors is still a perfectly legitimate win but Argentina really didn't play well by any stretch of the imagination. We just happened to absolutely **** the bed at crucial moments with some seriously braindead decision making. The number of times England are getting caught out when the backs are under pressure and simply lob no look passes or try to shovel the ball on. Farrell is one of the prime culprits here, when he is put under pressure, his instinct is to chuck the ball away as fast as possible. How many rucks was he at the bottom of in possession? I don't think it happened once in the entire game. Literally every other player took the ball into contact at least once, not Farrell.

Farrell needs to either be at 10 or not on the field. He is a liability at 12 as he puts those both inside and outside him under additional pressure because he offer zero threat ball in hand himself.

I wouldn't disagree with much of what you've written, but my point is that Argentina played better and smarter than England without needing to play well.