England vs. Argentina

[Prestwick]

Just got back from the game and:

- It was awful
- Very awful
- Like Munster against Northampton awful.
- Hipkiss was MIA for most of the game.
- As was Deacon.
- Haskell actually went forward with the ball but never passed.
- Hartley is one punch away from ruining his England career. The guy at points had to be dragged away from Argentine players who so very obviously had gotten to him. A liability.
- Cueto needs to be at FB.
- Poor Monye has class but feels cramped and unsure at FB. The guy looks like he's pressured into just kicking because he don't quite know how to play as a FB.
- Argentina good in parts, very bad in parts.
- Their replacement ten is rubbish. Ruined two awesome attacking chances with failed drop goal attempts. Two tries gone begging.

Neither sides fans should be pleased with today. Simply blaming the "purple plonkers" isn't someone seriously looking at the game but just someone taking a cheapshot because they're bored on a Saturday night. Argentina should have played better. Much better. I think if Hernandez and Comtepomi were about England would be toast but even without them Argentina have enough class to win against the Home Nations but they simply failed. Argentine fans should be rightly ****** off at a game gone begging. I'd love to hear what Juan thinks when he gets back.

England just have no confidence. They couldn't pluck up the courage to run the ball and ended up playing ping pong with Agulla (who isn't even a FB or even a winger I believe but played better than Monye ever did) and when they did finally tentatively put it about they just panicked and went all like Wales circa 2003 - 2005 and tried flinging money balls around like it was the RWC final 2011. Naturally, when Bahanahan throws the ball out of play you know something is wrong.

Wilkinson is a simple guy. A robot. He doesn't think, he just plays and if pressure is put on him to make a choice he'll just go into meltdown, screams "DOES NOT COMPUTE! DOES NOT COMPUUUUTE!!!!12121" and then start chucking wild passes about like he did against Wales in 2008. Luckily this didn't happen today because Geraghty and Hodgson did the right thing (again, no frickin' clue what happened to Hipkiss) and took authority.

Basically, you want to kick all day? Fine, Wilko will see Monye and Geraghty kicking it all the time and join in. He doesn't question why they've decided to kick all their posession away but he knows thats what the team wants.

On the other hand, you want him to run and chuck it around? Great, Wilko can do that too! When Geraghty and Hodgson started pushing everyone to start spreading it around and at least try and attack, Wilko saw this and joined in happily..even going on a run himself.

Sadly we saw too much of the kicking Wilko than the attacking Wilko and the team has to carry the can for that.

 

[Infern0]

Shameful performance from England really.

I admire Argentina but if we are honest we should be putting 20 points between us and them at home.

I'm dreading next week

 

[Rogue Gallery]

Watching the two games.

Chalk and cheese.

Passing, running, tackling v kick the ball and hope.

 

[mohamed_ali12]

Went to the game and have watched it again on tv since - waste of money. Poor weather, terrible rugby.

My ratings for the England 15

1. Payne - shite for all the reasons ive said before thousands of times - 2/10

2. Hartley - sat himself in the midfield, stopping any ball going wide, over-eager. 4/10

3. Bell - came in and did capably, got himself around the field, and kept our scrum alive. 5/10

4. Deacon - terrible, terrible player and everyone knows it 1/10

5. Borthwick - still didnt carry, put in good work at the lineout and breakdown 5/10

6. Croft - no trademark carries, no impact at the breakdown, no nothing. Worst game for England so far. 3/10

7 & 8. Moody and Haskell - seemed like international players. Neither were excellent but neither looked vulnerable. Haskell had a tendacy to slow things down in the midfield though. 8/10

9. Hodgson should have confirmed his place as England's first choice scrum half, got England decent enough ball and chose his moments wisely. 7/10

10. Wilkinson - awful game. poor kicking from hand and from tee. No imagination whatsover. 4/10

11. Banahan - looked threatening when he got the ball second half, but needs to get in the game more. 5/10

12. Geraghty - improvement on last week, still doesn't look like a centre but gave some nice passes and mixed it up a bit. Needs game time for England at 10 4/10

13. Hipkiss - solid in defense, average in attack. 4/10

14. Best of the England back line, looked lacking in a bit of pace early on but seemed eager and confident when he got the ball. Needs to get a game at 15 next week vs. New Zealand 7/10

15. Worst game in an England shirt, a couple of decent runs but atrocious hands from the high ball, terrible tackling and horrifyingly inaccurate kicking. Looked lost at full back 2/10

Replacements

Doran-Jones - did not look out of place, some good front rowers coming through. 5/10
Thompson - safe choice, no real impact 5/10
Worsley - good in defense, some nice touches in attack - 6/10
Care - slowed the ball right down 3/10
Goode - no words describe this man 0/10

My team for next week:

01. Flatman
02. Hartley
03. Bell
04. Shaw
05. Borthwick
06. Moody
07. Armitage
08. Haskell
09. Hodgson
10. Wilkinson
11. Monye
12. Geraghty
13. Tait
14. Strettle
15. Cueto

16. Doran Jones
17. Thompson
18. Lawes
19. Croft
20. Care
21. Banahan
22. Foden

 

[Olyy]

Has shaw got the ok for next week?
He should improve things a bit, if not, then for the love of god they should stick Lawes on.
He could do no worse than deacon, but could potentially do a helluva lot better, however Lawes isn't a tiger, so it'll probably cost him and game time

 

[shazbooger]

I usually jump to Johnsons defense (why i dont know) but there are some areas that just dont make sense to me.

1. Why are England the only team to consistently ignore the role of a inside centre. Every other international team looks to put a proper 12 in place. Enblgna believe its a good spot to place another 10. If Wilkinson is the best 10, put Geraghty on the bench. If its Geraghty, put Wilko on the bench. either way, make up your mind and pick a proper backline.

2. I dont understand why you would want to experiment with Monye when you have Cueto who has, and can play at 15. Either way, you dont have anything like a back three. Where most other international sides have wingers that can play as fullbacks, its very apparent that England do not. I'd probably go for Monye, Strettle and Cueto. Banahan is not an international rugby player. No pace, **** all aggression, pointless waste of a jersey.

3. Hartley is some numpty. He always has been, will he ever calm down? You know your other second row is bad when Borthwick doesnt get a mention. I still dont understand why Kennedy isnt in there as an automatic choice.

4. Backrow balance is wrong. Haskell yes, Moody yes, Croft .......... well no. Since the warm up matches in South Africa he's done nothing outside of lineout catching. Get a proper number 8 and put Haskell back where he should be at 6.

 

[Melhor Time]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (shtove @ Nov 14 2009, 09:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Thanks to Melhor for the detailed posts.

From what I've seen of Amorisino at Leicester, he's a flashy attacker with the oddest sprinting style, and an absolute liability in defence. Would he have been a definite starter?[/b]

You're welcome.

I agree about Lucas Gonzalez Amorisino. He is, on attack, so hard to stop. He can step both ways and do so with ease. He was so good at Sevens because of this. His defensive problems will go away shortly. Just give him time with the Pumas squad and the Leicester squad and he will be a more complete player. Argentina missed him vs England, didn't they? Agulla and Borges did well but Comuzzi was not good as Cueto was able to get the best of him regulalry. He should start vs Wales in place of Comuzzi.

So... England almost losing to a team with 4 amateur players and a depleted backline and backrow. Wow..... Looking ahead to the World Cup, Argentina fans can be reassured that the players are there to replace the retired stars from France 2007. Tomas Leonarde could combine very well with Lobbe and Leguizamon to form a mobile and defensily strong backrow. Fernandez - Rodriguez at 10 and 12 did well as a debutant combination. Two amateur players, lets not forget the importance of this. Croft out played by Leonarde, an amateur. Croft should lose his place now.

So, England got the win as expected. Well done. Despite not being flashy at all it will lift England in the World Rankings and keep the media at way for a short time at least. Wales should be very worried though. Their pack should be slaughtered next week, esp from 1-5. Amorisino and Camacho should both be avaliable too which will strengthen the backs considerably. Though, everyone is saying Borges was brilliant vs England so one of them will have to make due with a place on the bench.

England cannot play theuir traditional game with a weakened front row. Do this vs New Zealand and try's will rain hard.

My concern is that this is the 5th test out of 8 under Phelan as coach that Argentina have not scored a try.

 

[gingergenius]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Melhor Time @ Nov 15 2009, 11:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

England cannot play theuir traditional game with a weakened front row/[/b]

Probably the most succint summing up of England's performance that I've seen anywhere.

10 man rugby is for people with a solid base from 1 to 10. Especially against Argentina, without any good props, and with Deacon, we do not have this solid base.

Courtney Lawes or Simon Shaw must play 4 for us against the All Blacks. We need an enforcer in the pack, pure and simple.

Cueto must play at 15. Monye established himself last season as an International class winger. We cannot afford to wreck his confidence by playing him out of position. Banahan gives the team f*** all. Being big may work at club level, but not on the international stage. Wingers must be quick too. Big forwards must have dynamism. Banahan has neither pace nor dynamism. The French manage with Clerc and Heymans; the Welsh with Williams; the Irish with Fitzgerald. These guys are not big. They are, however, quick, run good angles, pop up in support and create things with quick feet.

David Strettle does this. James Simpson-Daniell does this. Noah Cato does this.

There are 4 positions - 1,3, 12 and 15 where we have no options down to injuries. Let's get the other positions right, however.

Also, let's make the players play some f***ing rugby. The way we played yesterday was exactly the same as the way we played in 2007 when we lost 36-0 to SA in the world cup. The backs have 3 moves - Fly half kicks; Inside centre kicks; forward/ Hipkiss crashes up the middle. There's no decoy runners, no one picking angles, no fizzy flat miss passes, no one fixing a man to create space. I don't know how experienced professional rugby players can come together and fail to execute the simplest of manoeuvres.

 

[Bullitt]

Is anyone surprised when <strike>Martin Johnsons</strike> Rod Andrews only team-talk tactic seems to be "All of you, give it to Jonny. Jonny, you kick it away".

Plus, all the Northampton players are clearly not good enough for the Red Rose so should be returned to their club with immediate effect...

 

[stormmaster1]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Teh Mite @ Nov 16 2009, 01:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

all the Northampton players are clearly not good enough[/b]

So true!!!!

Back on topic.........

Jonno needs to get the front 5 playing in the loose. Hartley is pretty much the only one who wanted to get stuck in, he just needs a cooler head and a bit of support. Deacon is a guy who had potential, but he never quite steps up when he gets a chance for England. If the front 5 actually played well in the loose then the back row would also have more of an impact. offensively Croft makes a difference when the side has already generated some momentum. A useless ability if the play to current form.

In the backs: not playing as a unit. Wilko is not actually a great kicker from hand at present. Wilko/Geraghty looks like something on paper, but it isn't working. not sure if it's lack of confidence/trust, lack of familiarity or just being told to execute a stupid game plan. currently no sign of the Toulon fly half impressing people or Geraghty creating things like he does for Saints. oh and Monye belongs on the wing.

 

[Prestwick]

I keep telling you this. You can't rely on Wilko to make decisions because he relies on everyone else to do that for him. He just does what everyone else is doing and if too much responsibility is placed on his shoulders he panics completely. He needs people with him to boss him and tell him what to do and take the pressure off of him. Mike Catt said this and keeps on saying this repeatedly but nobody seems to want to listen.

I can see where Johnno is going with having Geraghty with Wilko because Geraghty is a very independent and strong personality like Greenwood was back in 2003 but it just doesn't seem to be working because Geraghty isn't doing his job.

EDIT: Theres more to it than a weak front row. For example, Haskell carried the ball quite a bit and did it well but almost every time failed to offload or present decent ball at the breakdown which nullified the entire point of the enterprise. Other forwards like Borthwick and Deacon were completely absent and I didn't see Croft rampage like he usually does.

The entire pack just seems to be lacking motivation and it shows in how it performed against the Argentines.

Further Edit: Also, if Hartley can't keep his cool then he may well be going back to his club. Roncero really really got to him in that game and it showed. Borthwick and co having to drag a very emotional and ****** off Hartley every five minutes to calm him down. Seriously, if he can't keep his cool against Argentina he's just going to be a sitting duck for any other team.

 

[Bullitt]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Prestwick @ Nov 15 2009, 05:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

I can see where Johnno is going with having Geraghty with Wilko because Geraghty is a very independent and strong personality like Greenwood was back in 2003 but it just doesn't seem to be working because Geraghty isn't doing his job.[/b]

Geraghty isn't a centre, simple as that. Then again, Monye isn't a fullback nor is Borthwick an international quality captain... Doesn't seem to stop Andrew selecting them.

 

[Prestwick]

Well they need someone there to boss Wilko because unless Wilko gets injured we're stuck.

EDIT: Also, whenever they brought Banahan in off his wing, they just used him for crash ball and even cocked that up. Haven't they even seen Nonu and how the ABs use him? Maybe they will next weekend.

 

[Olyy]

At least with Wilko we get decent defending, and mostly accurate goal kicking,
As Goode appears to be the backup 10, i'd much rather we stuck with wilkinson

 

[Bullitt]

I for one don't agree that Wilkinson has been anywhere near as good as the meeja or part-time fans would have you believe (if he's playing his best ever rugby, he must've been utter garbage in 2002). Heaven forbid I say such a thing though, that sort of thing is not allowed.

Let's think about the backline though; Which looks better...
<div align='center'>
Care 9 Hodgson
Wilkinson 10 Geraghty
Banahan 11 Monye
Geraghty 12 Allen
Hipkiss 13 Hipkiss
Cueto 14 Cato
Monye 15 Armatige </div>

One has balance and future potential. The other shoehorns in Wilkinson.

 

[Prestwick]

I totally agree with that backline. Allen being forgotten like he has is a total discrace because he's really distinguishing himself now at Leicester.

 

[Bullitt]

*Or, because Armatige is injured, select Foden. There's a fully fit set of backs.

 

[Prestwick]

Watching the replay and Fernandez is still rubbish. Borges is good and despite being a bit anonymous later Tiesi is great.

Still think Argentina are good enough to win games, even without their two star players...

Edit: Okay, I'm looking at Argentina. Argulla was great at FB but he's not a Full Back. He's a winger or even a center. Move him to wing, move Gurruchaga to FB and then you can have Comuzzi to move outside centre, and Tiesi to inside centre.

I think that backline would be really good and would work well with Borges on the other wing.

 

[mohamed_ali12]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Prestwick @ Nov 15 2009, 05:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

I keep telling you this. You can't rely on Wilko to make decisions because he relies on everyone else to do that for him. He just does what everyone else is doing and if too much responsibility is placed on his shoulders he panics completely. He needs people with him to boss him and tell him what to do and take the pressure off of him. Mike Catt said this and keeps on saying this repeatedly but nobody seems to want to listen.

I can see where Johnno is going with having Geraghty with Wilko because Geraghty is a very independent and strong personality like Greenwood was back in 2003 but it just doesn't seem to be working because Geraghty isn't doing his job.

EDIT: Theres more to it than a weak front row. For example, Haskell carried the ball quite a bit and did it well but almost every time failed to offload or present decent ball at the breakdown which nullified the entire point of the enterprise. Other forwards like Borthwick and Deacon were completely absent and I didn't see Croft rampage like he usually does.

The entire pack just seems to be lacking motivation and it shows in how it performed against the Argentines[/b]

Hmm...I thought Haskell was very good, seemed just about the only forward causing problems for the Argentinians. Broke the gainline constantly and presented the ball well to Hodgson. Was a safe pair of hands and supported the backs 10 times better than Crane ever will.

Borthwick is a good player, carried well, rucked well and excelled in the lineout. People need to get off his back, he needs Shaw or Lawes next to him not Deacon.


One positive came out the game, the front row did really well with about 10 caps between them. Bell scrummaged excellently and it showed our strength in depth against the best in the world. Trust me, it's not all doom and gloom. England will emerge stronger from this series.

 

[Bullitt]

He certainly isn't a captain.