England vs. Argentina

Discussion in 'International Test Matches' started by mohamed_ali12, Nov 10, 2009.

  1. 10 players sent back to their clubs:David Wilson (Bath), David Barnes (Bath), Jordan Crane (Leicester), Steffon Armitage (London Irish), George Chuter (Leicester), Ben Foden (Northampton), Ben Kay (Leicester), David Strettle (Harlequins), Mathew Tait (Sale) Richard Wigglesworth (Sale).

    From what is left i would like to see

    01. Tim Payne
    02. Dylan Hartley
    03. Duncan Bell
    04. Simon Shaw
    05. Steve Borthwick
    06. Tom Croft
    07. Lewis Moody
    08. James Haskell
    09. Paul Hodgson
    10. Jonny Wilkinson
    11. Matt Banahan
    12. Shane Geraghty
    13. Dan Hipkiss
    14. Ugo Monye
    15. Mark Cueto

    16. Paul Doran-Jones
    17. Steve Thompson
    18. Courtney Lawes
    19. Joe Worsley
    20. Danny Care
    21. Ayoola Erinle

    Would rather play with 21 men than include Andy Goode.

    Can't see why Tait and Foden were left out, stupid decision. Would also prefer Kay in the squad rather than Deacon
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  3. gingergenius

    gingergenius Guest

    f***. Wilson was our big front 5 positive from the Australia game.

    So, Haskell will come in at 8. Who's wearing 19 now Crane and Armitage are back with clubs?
  4. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gingergenius @ Nov 10 2009, 06:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
    I am pretty sure that Shaw and Worsley are in the squad, so i would imagine it would be Worsley.

    Edit: Actually, i think Worsley is in but Shaw is not.
  5. feicarsinn

    feicarsinn Guest

    Who the hell is Paul Doran-Jones?
  6. Leinster reject, Porn Dorm Jones:
    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>
  7. feicarsinn

    feicarsinn Guest

    HAH really? England are playing a prop who couldn't get into the Leinster squad? Jasus I knew it was bad but god....
  8. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (feicarsinn @ Nov 10 2009, 07:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
    He was an academy member who didn't make the grade. Seems to have turned things around at London Welsh and Gloucester though. Good luck to him.
  9. Olyy

    Olyy Guest

    Doesn't make sense to send Tait back, we don't exactly have an abundance of FBs
    He should be on the bench, as he can cover centre wing and fullback to a reasonable standard, Centre and FB especially, as he's played FB for England and Newcastle for however many years, and centre for the past two at sale
  10. gingergenius

    gingergenius Guest

    Doran-Jones sounds like a bit of a fannyrat. Don't really see why he needed Haskell's help to put a camera in the cupboard, standard prop behaviour clearly.
  11. Bullitt

    Bullitt Guest

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gingergenius @ Nov 10 2009, 08:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
    It was a joint efforts as between them they actually managed 2 brain-cells which to rub together.
  12. Melhor Time

    Melhor Time Guest

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>
    This is the XV used in today's two Pumas training sessions. Only Lucas Gonzalez Amorisino (Leicester Tigers) did not train as he is yet to recover from the injury sustained on Sunday vs Leeds. Indications are that he should be fit and play wing vs England. The Pumas team will be named on Wednesday as will the English side.

    There are some notable selections in this training line up. Firstly, the forwards look confirmed and so it is very interesting to see Abadie (Rovigo, Italy) training at 8 instead of Tomás Leonardi who has been 6. I would have expected Alejandro Campos to have been playing 6 and Leonardi 8. Lozada training ahead of Carizza at 4 is a big surprize too. Lozada has been prefered in the past but his form this year has not been flash. The other surprize is the return of Scelzo at tighthead prop ahead of Ayerza who is, of course, actually a loosehead prop. England will be in for some problems. No crying permited however as Argentina's backs are extremely injury altered. 4 first choice backs are out of the game plus two first choice forwards.

    Seeing Martín Rodríguez Gurruchaga training at 12 is a huge surprize. All indications were Benjamin Urdapilleta would play there. I was of the view that Rodríguez Gurruchaga would be used as cover for Agulla at fullback. Comuzzi had a fantastic season for Pucura in Argentina and will be in the 22. He may well play 12 if Amorisino recovers to start on the wing. I hope Amorisino does play. he has been outstanding for Leicester, passing the expectations of virtually everybody. He has become a star in a matter of 2 months. In time he will correct the defensive problems of his game and become a permanent Pumas starter and a household name.

    Try after 1:38.


    Lalanne had a great game vs England at Salta but I was expecting to see Agustin Figuerola playing 9 vs England.
  13. gingergenius

    gingergenius Guest

    what I would give for the Argentine front 5 to be English.
  14. Melhor Time

    Melhor Time Guest

    Teams confirmed and remarkably the Argentina XV is identical to that which I posted last night. This, sadly, means the people from Leicester Tigers have given England an advantage as Lucas Gonzalez Amorisino has not recovered from the minor injury he picked up thanks to playing twice for Leicester in 3 days. Hopefully this is a lesson as it was utterly wrong to have been allowed to happen. He should be back vs Wales and Scotland. The meaning of this is that Argentina are without their two English based wingers and so have 3rd and fourth choices playing. I do not want to complain about the injury factor. Its a fact of our sport, but stupidity like that of Leicester is something entirely different. Argentina´s bench is strong. I am happy with all excpet Aramburu picked as 22. I am not a fan of him at all. Santiago Fernandez is trying to use this tour to get a Super 14 rugby contract. A perfect change on Saturday vs England no doubt. While Martín Rodríguez Gurruchaga is not merely there to replace the njured Contepomi and Bosch. It will be very interesting to see how these two do.

    Englands changes look appropriate to me. The same backs aside from hodsgon replacing Danny Care. Hodgson is the form Guinness Premiership scrumhalf and I would have started him vs Australia. Haskell to play 8 because of the best English player, Tom Croft, having 6 now like a mortgage. A new front row, which is of course down to injuries. Very, very bad luck for England. It could not have come at a worse time. Argentina are ripe for a smashing given their backs are so severly depleted. Their stocks from 1-5 could not be better and they should really have a noticeable advantage in this area. All the pressure will be on Albacete to show why he is considered so good by the French. England has a big opportunity to impress in the backrow. Only Moody should be unable to have an impact on the game. This will be the key area of this match. Whoever does better here should give their team the opportunities neccessary to win the match. Interestingly, that Argentina have a nice looking set of replacements when England´s bench looks like a major step down from the starting XV. Only Worsley and Care are notable players.

    England should win this game. The changed XV´s of both makes it hard to know by how much or in which way. The games plans are tricky to interpret. England in having Croft, Deacon and Borthwick should be interested in keeping it tight but this is not the way to play Argentina. This is why its interesting to also see Moody playing 7 and Haskell 8. Its not very mobile. Croft is probably the most mobile of the pack in fact.

    Players to watch for are:

    - Scelzo. First match since the World Cup. He could really dominate.
    - Fernandez Lobbe. One of the worlds best backrowers needs to standout and lead by example.
    - Albacete. he needs to be the best 4/5 on the park and by some distance. His lineouts and speed to rucks need to be noticable.
    - Tiesi. A chance for him to show his skills for his national side when they need him most. He is the key back for Argentina in this match. They need his linking skills to work well.

    - Wilkinson. Has a chance to find a combination with Geraghty and to link to his wingers. Should he succeed England will have a good day. Less kicking and more passing required.
    - Croft. Easily Englands best forward. A chance for him to leave his mark and dominate the unexperienced opposition 6.
    - Banaham. His size out wide could be decisive.
    - Hodgson. Making smart choices with Haskell and Wilkinson could see this guy dominate Lalanne as the two London Irish scrumhalves go head to head.

    England to win this by two tries to one.


    15-Ugo Monye, 14-Mark Cueto, 13-Dan Hipkiss, 12-Shane Geraghty, 11-Matt Banahan, 10-Jonny Wilkinson, 9-Paul Hodgson; 8-James Haskell, 7-Lewis Moody, 6-Tom Croft, 5-Steve Borthwick ©, 4-Louis Deacon, 3-Duncan Bell, 2-Dylan Hartley, 1-Tim Payne.

    Replacements: 16-Steve Thompson, 17-Paul Doran-Jones, 18-Courtney Lawes, 19-Joe Worsley, 20-Danny Care, 21-Andy Goode y 22-Ayoola Erinle.


    1- Rodrigo Roncero, 2- Mario Ledesma, 3- Martín Scelzo, 4- Esteban Lozada, 5- Patricio Albacete, 6- Tomás Leonardi, 7- Alejandro Abadie, 8- Juan Fernández Lobbe (capitán); 9- Alfredo Lalanne, 10- Santiago Fernández, 11- Mauro Comuzzi, 12- Martín Rodríguez Gurruchaga, 13- Gonzalo Tiesi, 14- Lucas Borges, 15- Horacio Agulla.

    Replacements: 16 Alberto Vernet Basualdo, 17 Marcos Ayerza, 18 Manuel Carizza, 19 Alejandro Campos, 20 Agustín Figuerola, 21 Benjamín Urdapilleta and 22 Federico Martín Aramburu.
  15. Olyy

    Olyy Guest

    Glad to see Hartley starting,
    Why why why have they got monye at FB, swap him and cueto round! Hopefully lawes will get more than 9minutes of play this time
  16. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Melhor Time @ Nov 11 2009, 03:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
    Hell of a lot more mobile than

    6. Worsley
    7. Moody
    8. Crane.

    I think last season Croft was the second fastest PLAYER (not forward) in the Leicester team, behind Varndell
    Moody does his bit
    Haskell is also pretty quick and has good handling skills.

    Very exciting back row for England in my opinion
  17. Melhor Time

    Melhor Time Guest

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ali12 @ Nov 11 2009, 02:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

    Croft is outstanding, but my feeling is that Martin Johnson's gameplan will not be to use his skills around the park. he wants a strong front five with Croft acting more as a third lock than a third backrower. He wants a link player similar to the All Blacks playing Reuben Thorne at 6 or Scotland with Jason White.

    I think Haskell has been good for SF Paris, much better this season than for Wasps last. But he is playing as a 7 (wearing 6 for SF) not an 8. I would drop Moody, who cannot make the Leicester team regularly. Of course, Crane didn't work well at 8 vs Australia so he wants to fix the problem from within the squad. Lets see how it works out.

    Everything considered, I am happy with the Pumas team. Being able to call up Borges is a luxury. Of course Carmacho, Amorisino and Rafael Carballo are all preferences but things could be a lot worse. The players are all very good, some spectacular and noticably better than those in the England team. Tiesi, Fernandez Lobbe, Albacete, Roncero, Scelzo and Ledesma. Plus, Agulla is a better positional fullback than Monye or Cueto. All advantages that will factor in and yes, Argentina are more than capable of winning. Lets not also forget that Argentina's players replacing the likes of Leguizamon, Fessia, Hernandez, Camacho and Contepomi have been playing for the Jaguars and winning matches against Canada, the USA, Georgia, Namibia and others. Most are also succesful Sevens players and Argentina is a very, very strong sevens side.

    So who is Martín Rodríguez Gurruchaga?


    Like most Pumas backs (Tiesi, Amorisino, Agulla, Fernandez, Urdapilleta, Figuerola and Camacho) he was a member of Argentina's sevens team and as this video shows he contributed heavilly to the teams victory of the San Diego tournament this year. So, in other words, he is a very good player and maybe the fact that he is unknown could be dangerous. My concern is that he plays 15 not 12. I guess it is fair to say that his skills will contribute to Argentina a lot at 12 because he is a big guy and 12 demands a huge defensive workload which is maybe something he is better at than Benjamin Urdapilleta.
  18. gingergenius

    gingergenius Guest

    this game could be really exciting in terms of a clash of strengths. It's not often you can predict an English side to be bullied in the forwards, but I'm really worried this will happen. I would have started with Lawes at 4 for precisely this reason, he's an intimidating and combative force. Hartley and Haskell should give us more ball carrying ability, and with Borthwick and Croft our lineout will be strong. However, scrums may be a massive weakness we give away to Argentina.

    The backs will be a big tst for England. There's pace from Monye, creativity from Geraghty and physicality from Hipkiss and Banahan. Unfortunately, if we lose the forward battle then the backs could be on the back foot and look as flat-footed as we did against Australia. However, the Argentine backline doesn't look like it will be nearly as well organised defensively, so our backline really has an oppurtunity to step up their game and score some tries.

    I expect an England win, but we will have to play very well to get it. No coasting, everyone really has to be on top of their game because no team with a pack as good as Argentina's is going to be uncmpetitive.
  19. Bullitt

    Bullitt Guest

    Geraghtys creativeness will be wasted again at 12 as he'll have to stand so deep behind Sir Bootsalot that he'll be forcing anything he attempts.

    Still, he fails, he never gets picked again... He spends more time with the club. Bonus, party.
  20. Olyy

    Olyy Guest

    I've been impressed with Haskell from what little i've seen of Top 14, and his game time against australia,
    Seems that it was Wasps holding him back
  21. RC

    RC Guest

    After the way Wales played tonight, i'm intrigued to find out how Argentina will play against England tomorrow...coz i'm worried!
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