England World Cup Squad

[Reiser99]

2019 Flankers are such an improvement over 2015 flankers...And far less egos.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

2015 LHP: Vunipola, Marler
2019 LHP: Vunipola, Marler, Genge

2015 HK: George, Youngs, Webber
2019 HK: George, Cowan-Dickie, Singleton

2015 THP: Cole, Wilson, Brookes
2019 THP: Cole, Sinckler

2015 LK: Parling, Kruis, Lawes, Launchbury
2019 LK: Itoje, Kruis, Lawes, Launchbury

2015 FL: Robshaw, Haskell, Wood
2019 FL: Curry, Underhill, Ludlam

2015 #8: Easter, Vunipola, Morgan
2019 #8: Vunipola, Wilson


2015 SH: Youngs, Care, Wigglesworth
2019 SH: Youngs, Heinz

2015 FH: Farrell, Ford
2019 FH: Farrell, Ford

2015 CE: Barritt, Joseph, Slade, [Redacted]
2019 CE: Tuilagi, Joseph, Slade, Francis

2015 WG: May, Nowell, Watson
2019 WG: May, Nowell, Cokanasiga, McConnochie

2015 FB: Brown, Goode
2019 FB: Daly, Watson

IMO 2019 Vunipola and Marler are better than their 2015 vintage
2019 George is significantly better than 2015 George, but Youngs was better the LCD is right now. Neither 3rd choice is going to worry about anyone.
2019 Cole is way less effective than himself in 2015, but Wilson was better then than Sinckler is just yet - though Sinckler has a much higher ceiling.

Itoje is so much better than Parling; whilst Kruis and Lawes are probably more effective now; Launchbury probably isn't.
This year's backrow is so much more capable, but do they have that gnarled cynicism that the best have?

SH: gods dammit what I wouldn't give for a decent scrum half
2019 Farrell wipes the floor with 2015 Farrell, whilst Ford has added more nouse, but has lost some of the excitement in the process.

Each of those centres is a big step up on their 2015 competitors; with the possible exception of Francis vs [Redacted]

May, Nowell and Watson are all better players now, Johnny out of all recognition - but by gods we could do with a FB that was actually accustomed to playing there. Coka adds a real fear factor though.

So this time England get out of the pool.

 

[Which Tyler]

So this time England get out of the pool.

Hopefully

 

[RedruthRFC]

Despite the same concerns as everyone else (Tighthead & Scrum Half numbers), I'm actually fairly happy with the squad.

According to an article I saw on Facebook, Jones has said that Ford will act as 9 cover in the event of an injury, he didn't mention what happens in the event of an injury at 3! Cowan-Dickie?

I know that a 31 man squad is pretty clip and something has to give somewhere, but the lack of number eight cover bothers me. I don't like any way of covering eight that I can think of:

Option 1, flog Billy to death by expecting his to play most of most matches.
Option 2, flog Wilson to death starting his at 6 in the first XV and playing him at 8 in other matches.
Option 3, drop Wilson out of the first XV.

I guess option 3 is the least of the evils, although it would be rather harsh to Wilson. It's a pity that we didn't get to see Underhill with Curry and Vunipola on yesterday, this may have allayed fears. No doubt Eddie Jones is pitching a trouser tent at the idea of playing a 3 second row side and no doubt I'm missing at least one other scenario!

 

[rugga658]

Despite the same concerns as everyone else (Tighthead & Scrum Half numbers), I'm actually fairly happy with the squad.

If we play a similar side to the one that started yesterday with McConnochie in for Watson against Tonga and USA, it gives us a good opportunity to put out our best side fresh against Argentina and France.

McConnochie is an absurd pick in the squad

Unless he's being used as a backup for Nowell not being fit enough for RWC
He's a waste of a spot You do not need 6 Back 3 options FFS!!!!

Then add the stupidly of only selecting 2 TH props

I like 2 SH being chosen It has the lightest physical toll of any position
You can get away with rotation btw a pair of #9's

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Jones was on the radio last night talking about the need to introduce new blood. Fair enough, but gradually and not en masse on tournament eve. He was a bit prickly about it and back filling the answer.

We now know that Ford will cover 9 and Marler 3. Not aware that either have played any senior rugby in those positions.

Is Wilson our first choice 6? If so it's bats having him as our only 8 cover. I can see one of the locks getting some time at 6.

Who covers if Ford or Faz go down? Neither Francis or Slade are really the answer, but I guess it will have to be one of those. Jones wouldn't reveal the standby list, will Cips be on it? You couldn't blame him for sticking 2 fingers up.

In the centres we've got 2 13s, another 13 likely to play 12 and Francis who's a different type of 12 altogether. Not to mention Daly another 13. If Manu's a starter we've got no remotely like for like replacement so the game plan will have to change if / when he goes down.

6 back 3s is one too many. But of those only Watson has ever shown as a credible FB at international level. And even then many think he's a better winger.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Marler at 3 is pretty crazy,
Would feel better about Williams/Sinckler at loosehead - isn't tighthead the more technical of the two positions?

 

[higgik]

You need to be able to have a squad that can play different game plans if needed, a weakness of England recently, but also have like for like replacements in order to keep plan A going for as long a possible, assuming Plan A is the most successful.
I do not understand why Devoto is not in the squad instead of Francis. He offers better go forward with as good as handling skills. He would be able to cover Manu far better, unless EJ is going plan A Faz-Manu-Slade, plan B Ford-Faz-Slade!!! OMG so lightweight.
V Tonga, he will go for lighter pack and heavier backs, in order to run them off the park and then blast them out wide.
V USA, mixture bringing in more 1st choice players
V Arg, full first choice
V Fra, full 1st choice
Starting 15 v Tonga
15 Watson
14 Big Joe
13 Slade
12 Manu
11 Nowell ( if fit needs more game time)
10 Ford, I know not heavy weight, but need someone to dictate play and move the Tongans around
9 Heinz
8 Wilson, (more development time)
7 Underhill
6 Ludlam
5 Lawes
4 Itoje
3 Marler
2 LCD
1 Mako, ( needs game time)

 

[ncurd]

It's all bluster with nearly a week in between games if someone doesn't make the 22 an injury replacement can be called up pretty sharpish.

Once you get beyond bench cover it doesn't really matter of the player is on the plane or not.

For instant do you really believe if Youngs or Heinz, Ford really will be our bench option?

 

[FLOBALOB]

McConnochie is only in the squad until Nowell proves his fitness. One will drop out and Williams will replace them.
Its obvious.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

It's all bluster with nearly a week in between games if someone doesn't make the 22 an injury replacement can be called up pretty sharpish.

Once you get beyond bench cover it doesn't really matter of the player is on the plane or not.

For instant do you really believe if Youngs or Heinz, Ford really will be our bench option?

Depends where the standbys are. If they're in the UK and one of them pulls up on a Weds or Thurs quite possibly.

 

[Which Tyler]

It's all bluster with nearly a week in between games if someone doesn't make the 22 an injury replacement can be called up pretty sharpish.

Once you get beyond bench cover it doesn't really matter of the player is on the plane or not.

For instant do you really believe if Youngs or Heinz, Ford really will be our bench option?

The trouble is, those replacements are permanent.
For example. If Sinckler fails an HIA against Tonga, he has a 6 day return-,to-pkay, and misses the USA match. Do you really send him home for the rest of the tournament? Or do you try to convince the ref that Marker is actually a THP after all? If you fail in to convince them we can't field a 23. I'm not sure if we could potentially revert to a 7-man bench or simply forfeit the match.

 

[rugga658]

McConnochie is only in the squad until Nowell proves his fitness. One will drop out and Williams will replace them.
Its obvious.

We'll see about that

I suspect you're right re. Fast Eddie's thinking

If he really goes into opening RWC game with this squad then

he's taking the mickey with 6 outside backs covering Wing + Full Back

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Marler at 3 is pretty crazy,
Would feel better about Williams/Sinckler at loosehead - isn't tighthead the more technical of the two positions?

I know Marler played some 3 growing up - think he played there a bit for the U20s didn't he? Unfortunately, I also remember him saying on a podcast that he'd never consider playing tighthead at professional level as he thinks it's too dangerous for the inexperienced, so unless Eddie's pulled some magic on him then I can't see him being an option.
As you said, TH is the more technical of the 2 positions, and so frankly I think Mako would get f***ed up there as he barely has a handle on LH.
Genge is still new to propping having only moved there from the back row in the last few years. Chucking him in at TH for the first time at international level would be suicide.

In short, from what I can see we have 0 THP cover in the squad.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I know Marler played some 3 growing up - think he played there a bit for the U20s didn't he? Unfortunately, I also remember him saying on a podcast that he'd never consider playing tighthead at professional level as he thinks it's too dangerous for the inexperienced, so unless Eddie's pulled some magic on him then I can't see him being an option.
As you said, TH is the more technical of the 2 positions, and so frankly I think Mako would get f***ed up there as he barely has a handle on LH.
Genge is still new to propping having only moved there from the back row in the last few years. Chucking him in at TH for the first time at international level would be suicide.

In short, from what I can see we have 0 THP cover in the squad.

Well we have 3 more warm up games. If Marler's TH cover then he must have some time there in a couple of those. Ditto Ford at 9. If we don't see that then Jones is either pulling our chains or being totally reckless. We largely know what the first XV can do, so at least 2 of the remaining games should be about working out contingencies and Plan Bs.

I also think he's been bloody stupid announcing so early. I understand the certainty point, but if player A gets injured it's not always necessarily a case of a straight swap for player B when you consider all the permutations of covering other positions. Not to mention that if any of the newbies don't cut it in the warm ups he can't can them for the experienced option - well he can, we haven't officially declared yet, but not without getting serious egg on his face. Why tie your hands like that?

 

[rugga658]

I also think he's been bloody stupid announcing so early. I understand the certainty point, but if player A gets injured it's not always necessarily a case of a straight swap for player B when you consider all the permutations of covering other positions. Not to mention that if any of the newbies don't cut it in the warm ups he can't can them for the experienced option - well he can, we haven't officially declared yet, but not without getting serious egg on his face. Why tie your hands like that?

I've no problem with Fast Eddie naming squad so early
No point wasting time with camp bodies & those who've no shot of making RWC Squad

If players have a crap game in the upcoming friendlies
They either get dropped & only play vs mickey mouse team like USA/Tonga in RWC
or get a 2nd chance

No big deal

 

[MikeTheNative]

2 SH is a bit of a risk but understandable, only taking 2 TH seems crazy though.
Saying that taking 4 centres when one of the 10's has played there a lot and one of the outside backs (Daly) can also play there. Same with 6 outside backs, I'm sure JJ could play there is needed as well as Tuilagi (Who has in the past)

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I've no problem with Fast Eddie naming squad so early
No point wasting time with camp bodies & those who've no shot of making RWC Squad

Unless we've become immune to injuries there's a lot of point in keeping the standbys fully involved up to departure. Some will almost certainly be called upon and the more they feel part of it and re in tune with what's going on the better.

 

[Every Time Ref]

The trouble is, those replacements are permanent.
For example. If Sinckler fails an HIA against Tonga, he has a 6 day return-,to-pkay, and misses the USA match. Do you really send him home for the rest of the tournament? Or do you try to convince the ref that Marker is actually a THP after all? If you fail in to convince them we can't field a 23. I'm not sure if we could potentially revert to a 7-man bench or simply forfeit the match.

I can't believe we are genuinely risking the possibility of forfeiting a World Cup match. I mean, I can't see WR allowing it to happen, they'll bend the rules I'm sure, but other countries will be rightly furious. I don't look forward to the Welsh/Scottish/Irish/Kiwis/Saffas/Everyone in the match thread if that happens....

Im actually surprised there isn't a rule about having enough front row cover in the squad like there is for the match day 23

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

I can't believe we are genuinely risking the possibility of forfeiting a World Cup match. I mean, I can't see WR allowing it to happen, they'll bend the rules I'm sure, but other countries will be rightly furious. I don't look forward to the Welsh/Scottish/Irish/Kiwis/Saffas/Everyone in the match thread if that happens....

Im actually surprised there isn't a rule about having enough front row cover in the squad like there is for the match day 23

"The necessary number of reserve front row players must be included in the 31 man squad to cover last minute injuries to the front row players in the match day squad due to the 48 hour limit on injury replacements from outside the tournament squad."

There is a rule. WR will be aware of England's situation so I can only assume that they've given the go ahead that should a THP go down, Marler is ample cover. So I don't think that we're looking at forfeiting a match, but we are looking at getting decimated in scrums and breaking our own players.