England's Argetine Adventure

[ratsapprentice]

Oh ****, just realised we're gonna need some second and back row cover...

Matt Garvey?

I have a feeling it could be someone like George Robson or MOBO. I cannot think of any realistic options for flankers though...

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Oh ****, just realised we're gonna need some second and back row cover...

Matt Garvey?

I have a feeling it could be someone like George Robson or MOBO. I cannot think of any realistic options for flankers though...

Gah, you got me excited when you said Garvey, then reminded me that the other two are far more likely....
Luckily it's just the one game that we'll be short on players (bar injuries...)

 

[ratsapprentice]

Who the **** is going to captain the team? :lol:

Johnson?

 

[Draggs]

Who the **** is going to captain the team? :lol:

Johnson?

Wood was already announced, wasn't he? Different one for Barbarians?

Where has Tait been playing for Leicester?

 

[ratsapprentice]

Tait has been playing at FB and is the heir apparent to Geordan Murphy

All the Saints and Tigers players will be playing in the premiership final so will not be available.
There is no obvious captain in the team. None of the established players (Corbs, Wilson, Marler, Launchbury, Morgan) feel right...
And it would put a hell of a lot of pressure on guys that are being given a massive opportunity.

 

[Peat]

Eastmond has a tackle completion rate of 90% at inside center. And that's with only half a season in the position. It also appears to be on the rise as he hasn't missed a tackle in 4 games now. His tackle completion rate is just shy of Barritt's (93%) and I think higher than Twelvetrees'. I'm reserving judgement, but the early signs are that he's coping well at inside center.

Tackle completion rate does not mean he's stopping people at the gain line though? Someone who always brings the guy down but two-three yards behind the line is a liability, albeit not as much as the guy who misses tackles. Some guy who always brings the guy down, but gives him more or less complete freedom to offload, is also a liability. Considering his height, weight, and presumed strength, and considering the difference between Chris Bell, Sam Tuitupou, Dom Waldouck and Tom Casson vs. Ma'a Nonu, Jamie Roberts and Jean de Villiers - not to mention the difficulty in marking Wesley Fofana or James O'Connor as opposed to Anthony Allen, elusive as he is - I really struggle to believe he will not have defensive issues. Although it should be also noted I have down one inside-centre near the England set-up whose defensive work I am entirely happy with.

 

[j'nuh]

Tackle completion rate does not mean he's stopping people at the gain line though? Someone who always brings the guy down but two-three yards behind the line is a liability, albeit not as much as the guy who misses tackles. Some guy who always brings the guy down, but gives him more or less complete freedom to offload, is also a liability. Considering his height, weight, and presumed strength, and considering the difference between Chris Bell, Sam Tuitupou, Dom Waldouck and Tom Casson vs. Ma'a Nonu, Jamie Roberts and Jean de Villiers - not to mention the difficulty in marking Wesley Fofana or James O'Connor as opposed to Anthony Allen, elusive as he is - I really struggle to believe he will not have defensive issues. Although it should be also noted I have down one inside-centre near the England set-up whose defensive work I am entirely happy with.

I agree, but we do have to consider our priorities in an inside center. If we had a player which was good at everything, in both the attacking and defensive sense, then it wouldn't be a difficult choice to make. Otherwise, you're going to have to accept that there will be flaws in the player you pick. If Eastmond makes his tackles, I'm not too concerned about how far behind the gain line he makes them as long as he has the playmaking skills to make up for it.

That said, Twelvetrees and Allen are players I want to see have a go before Eastmond in the 12 position.

Also, I agree that I'd like to see him have a go in the half-backs. I just worry that Ford/Heathcote have fly-half tied down for Bath, and scrum-half is too specialist a position for him to waltz into (even in spite of the fact he was a scrum-half in league).

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Scrumhalf in League is nothing like scrumhalf in Union though - in league the hooker is most like a union #9, and a scrumhalf is more like a union #10.

 

[j'nuh]

I knew that (from Bradford) and still couldn't resist posting it.

 

[ratsapprentice]

We'll see how it goes, the guy has the potential to play anywhere in the backline, Lancaster may still see him as a 15. We know that he wants Farrell, but that entails having a playmaker somewhere else in the backline, and he seems to like it being his FB.

We are going to look to see him at full-back for the Saxons – that's where we think he has the best chance of playing for England

 

[Crapspray]

How about we look at having a playmaker at fly-half? Then maybe one at inside-centre as well?

I really hope this autumn Lancaster abandons his bizarre selection policy in the backs. If he wants an example of the limit of defensive back-play, he need look no further than the Saints vs Sarries game. Saracens were forced to attack and were absolutely awful at it, they couldn't score points when they needed to. Something similar happened to England against Italy.

There are four good options at fullback: Brown, Daly, Foden, and Tait. There's no need to move a player who could actually get the back line moving there as well. We have a dearth of wingers in the EPS and a desert of creativity in the centres.

 

[Patchey]

Seeing as the EPS and Saxons seems to be devoid to creative centers maybe its an England thing not a selection issue? I know Twelvetrees is the exception and that Allen, Daly and Eastmond have shown flashes of creativity at Domestic level but perhaps there just isn't the same supply of centers as there are fullbacks and wingers.

Dixon performed very well at 9 this weekend, outperforming De Kock and, more importantly for this thread, Wrigglesworth by a country mile.

 

[j'nuh]

There are seven good options at fullback: Brown, Daly, Foden, Tait, Abendanon, Arscott and Morgan.

Fixed.

Lancaster's tactics do strike me as very odd. He wants his 12 to be a backline flanker, his 10 to take on most of the responsibilities of a flyhalf, his 15 to come in to playmake for the 10, his left wing to then cover for his fullback.

Worst is that when talking about Eastmond, I think Lancaster said that he sees Eastmond as a fullback because he would then fit into the system as a playmaking fullback to help the flyhalf. Which probably means that the playmaking 15 (ie, Goode) is here to stay...

 

[ratsapprentice]

I think Lancaster has changed his mind on the whole playmaker at 15 thing. As evidenced in his selection of Goode as a FH (or so he says), and 36 as first choice 12.
He has always said that he wants a second playmaker (mainly because of Farrell), but has picked it at FB because he likes Barritt at 12.
I don't think he still sees Kyle as a FB either, as he has played very well at 12, I was just suggesting it's a possibility.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Chris Bell for England 12! I jest, but the man runs some nice lines and can combine that with physicality to the extent that he's a really good crash ball player. Creative he is not, however.

To be honest I think you can partly make up for not being creative by having an offloading game. This is why Jordan Turner Hall isn't a COMPLETE car crash of a player, because every now and then he frees his arms for an offload.
As an attacking player(lines etc), I quite like Tom Casson, but his defence is pretty suspect from what I've seen.

But no, by a country mile as far as I'm concerned, Twelvetrees and Allen are the best options at 12.

 

[ratsapprentice]

JTH is a complete car crash at Saxons level.

Being a bit fat is not good enough to bosh at higher levels.

 

[Patchey]

Fixed.

Lancaster's tactics do strike me as very odd. He wants his 12 to be a backline flanker, his 10 to take on most of the responsibilities of a flyhalf, his 15 to come in to playmake for the 10, his left wing to then cover for his fullback.

Worst is that when talking about Eastmond, I think Lancaster said that he sees Eastmond as a fullback because he would then fit into the system as a playmaking fullback to help the flyhalf. Which probably means that the playmaking 15 (ie, Goode) is here to stay...

If the playmaking 15 is here to stay then I think Goode's days are numbered. Eventually one of the other options will get to start and show what they can do. Hopefully Foden or Brown will step up this summer.

 

[Crapspray]

Hopefully Foden or Brown will step up this summer.

I hope they do. I also hope the whole back line turns up and shows what they can do. It'll hopefully knock a few of Lancaster's idiosyncrasies out of his head, and we can see how England play in the autumn with some attacking threat.

I dread Burns and Twelvetrees not firing and Lancaster reverts to type in the Autumn. There's a good chance they'll be behind a pack going backwards as well, (maybe not starters, but the front-row bench looks poor) which won't help.

And, as I've got too much free time on my hands, I'd throw this team out against the Barbarians:

1. Marler
2. Buchanan
3. Thomas
4. Botha
5. Attwood
6. Johnson (c)
7. Kvesic
8. Vunipola
9. Wigglesworth
10. Burns
11. May
12. Eastmond
13. Tomkins
14. Wade
15. Brown

16. Paice
17. Wilson
18. Corbisiero
19. Launchbury
20. Morgan
21. Simpson
22. Twelvetrees
23. Yarde

With Eastmond, Tomkins, Buchanan, Paice, Yarde, and Thomas competing for bench spots against South America XV the week after.

Edit: Looking at the Barbarians pack, they'll muller that front-row. Ah well, it's a learning experience.

 

[ratsapprentice]

With Eastmond, Tomkins, Buchanan, Paice, Yarde, and Thomas competing for bench spots against South America XV the week after.

I hadn't thought of that as a possibility...

 

[Crapspray]

I didn't realise that the South America XV match was before the tests. I assumed mid-week actually meant that. It'll be a good chance to try out the last few players; Slater, Clark, Lawes, Doran Jones, Joseph, Strettle, and Foden. The chaff would be separated in time for the tests, with the spine of the team (Wood, Morgan, Corbs, Wilson, Dickson, Twelvetrees, and Burns) in place during the SA XV match.