English summer rugby

[j'nuh]

That goes for every player, regardless of position.

Wild Bill was running at people as hard as he could at the end of the season, a bit like SOB did in the 6N, I hope that his inability to keep hold of the ball can be somewhat explained by that.

No, the problem is his unforced errors. Dropping uncontested high balls, not receiving passes well etc. I don't know if it's accurate about him, but it's something that I noticed on the few times I've watched him play. And what ragerancher says is right. Conceding possession with a knock-on is effectively worth 30-40m of territory. You can carry 60+ m a game on a regular basis, but if you keep dropping the ball, then you're coming to the detriment of your team in the territory battle.

In terms of him playing worse towards the end of the season, I bet some of that was down to the Wasps turning to mush at the end. Same happened with Glos the season before. Classy and top 4/top 6 contenders for three-quarters of the year, then imploding in the final stretch. His runs will have been less supported, the platform given less effective etc. I wouldn't worry about that, I bet he gets on really well at the Sarries.

 

[ratsapprentice]

No, the problem is his unforced errors.

Um... I don't think I've said anything to the contrary!?
Hence me referring to him as "Wild Bill", he seemed to disengage his brain at some point in the season.

 

[Peat]

That goes for every player, regardless of position.

Wild Bill was running at people as hard as he could at the end of the season, a bit like SOB did in the 6N, I hope that his inability to keep hold of the ball can be somewhat explained by that.

So it does. Most players can be mostly trusted to do the former at least - I don't believe Billy can at the moment.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

I think that Billy's inclusion in the eps is almost misleading - I don't think he's as close to picking up more caps as it might seem. I'd be prepared to bet that if, tomorrow, Ben Morgan is ruled out of the autumn internationals, Lancaster's immediate plan B would be to go for Wood or Robshaw at 8 rather than Billy. Such a scenario would really pull the rug from beneath lancaster's feet; whilst Morgan is fit and ready, Lancaster can think long-term about the development of players like Billy, and not worry about battle readiness. If Morgan suffers an injury and vunipola is the first 8man in line, I think lancaster would have to confront the facts about Billy's current game and ultimately, that Nick Easter or Tom Waldrom would be safer bets.

In a conservatively coached englnd side which emphasises keeping it tight and safe, success through group buy-in to tight defensive structures and by not gifting oppostion sides easy 3 pointers, Billy V at this moment in time is a genuine liability. Just to add, Morgan at his best is a full-on bulldozer; he bounces countless defenders, just as Billy V does. I agree with Peat, there's not a big physical gulf between the two - and that Morgan has this string to his bow, is part of what makes me doubt that Vunipola will ever be as good as Morgan.

 

[ratsapprentice]

http://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/feat...t-assessment-of-englands-latest-elite-squads/

One of the best England related articles I've read in a long time.

 

[Crapspray]

While I agree that Tuilagi needs a capable backup, I don't think his injury would leave England badly exposed. If anything it liberates England because they can't just follow the Manu-Smash tactic over and over again. Plus, three of the replacements he suggests (Daly, Joseph, and May) are in the Saxons, so could be called up in a bind. Though I wish Lancaster would take Cain's advice and start telling clubs where he wants people played. If Daly ends up at fullback he'll be stuck behind the likes of Goode for too long.


Apart from that I agree that the new squad hasn't quite cleared out the dead wood. I would have liked to have seen Ashton dropped; if only because he's one of the few Johnson-era players that hasn't been- despite his poor form. Hartley is another. One day he'll throw a game away and Lancaster will wish he'd listened to his own words about discipline. Let's face it, he's been banned twice in Lancaster's time and yellow-carded the only time he captained England.


Agree on the Saxons as well. A lack of game time and a completely unbalanced squad really distorts their purpose and cripples their use. It's neither here nor there on what it wants to be. Either develop players or build a second team. At the moment it has few promising youngsters and a lot of average players.


Lancaster is going in the right direction, and this selection is mostly good, (EPS at least) but for me he has to bring in the likes of May, Daly, and Wallace/Fraser by the Six Nations next year. That's still only 18 months or so away from the World Cup. Any later and they won't be up to speed in time.

 

[j'nuh]

For an "expert", he seems to have quite a few things wrong:

1. Tuilagi will not be better at 12 than 13 in two years time. He isn't Roberts. 12s are far more rooted into a position than 13s, and have to be able to distribute if the ball is to make it wider. Tuilagi is better at 13 because he can vary his runs, he can run into wider channels and he can play off of distributors at either 10 or 12. All putting him at 12 serves to do is for him to ball-crash the fringes. It could work, but you'd be turning a weapon into a poor man's Roberts.

2. Jonny May was an outside center, at times, when he was in the U20s/first burst out on the scene. The last two seasons have had him focus on fullback first, then wing. I think he can alternate between a few positions, but he'd have to sacrifice some of his pace for brawn if he were to be a good enough defender in the 13 channel. This would be an unacceptable trade-off imo. I'd much prefer him to develop as the speedy, classy winger, who might be able to shift to fullback later on.

3. Trinder cannot be counted on for England yet. He falls off countless tackles.

4. "May has seen off the claims of James Simpson-Daniel and Henry Trinder, not to mention old warhorse Tindall, to be first pick at Kingsholm."

Other than a cameo, May hasn't played 13 in the last year, nor has JSD. And even on the wing position, May never got chosen ahead of JSD: when both (and Sharples) were fit, May was shifted to fullback.

5. Dave Attwood is no bigger than Launchbury, and not even significantly bigger than Parling.

I agree with the rest though.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I didn't agree about the Johnny May bit, swap him with Daly though...

5. Dave Attwood is no bigger than Launchbury, and not even significantly bigger than Parling.

When people refer to them as being "lightweight" they are talking about their ability physically dominate other players not how much they weigh or how tall they are.
And equally as important, their ability to add strength to Scrums and Mauls.
Attwood is clearly and demonstrably more physical than either of them.

Either way, are you really telling me you can't see a difference in build between Dave and the other two?

 

[j'nuh]

But Nick Cain was specifically talking about how the size and strength of Dave Attwood would help out in the set piece. I don't see him being significantly bigger than the other two to make that much of a difference. If we're truly worried about the scrum, then the solutions are to either get a ~20st Hamilton/Gray-like behemoth in, or beef up the front row.

But I'd bear in mind that people only starting calling for changes to our set piece during the last 6N, when Corbisiero/Morgan weren't available. We've had an overhang since.

 

[Peat]

I agree with everything he says until he starts getting into the specifics of players.

Jonny May should not be in the running for England outside-centre. Nor should Henry Trinder, or James Simpson-Daniel. The day of willowy 6' pace merchants at outside centre is gone. The centres have too much defensive responsibility and operate in too much traffic. Size is not everything - Joseph isn't very big, but is very responsible defensively, while Lowe has a surprising amount of strength in contact - but power is necessary. I don't think I'm overly damning the Kingsholm boys to suggest that's not them.

The issue of the matter is that while I'd have liked Tuilagi to have some competition, going by end of season form he has no competition. Joseph was in a slump, Lowe was in a slump, I forget who was there for Glaws which I think says it all, Daly had moved to 15 and I'm struggling to think who else there is... Tompkins can sod off. It's easy to see Lancaster's logic here, although I'm not sure I agree with it. He has 1 credible international 13, no credible international 12s, no challengers to 13, a bunch of challengers to 12. So he's picked 1 13 and 3 12s. I don't like how bolted on that makes Tuilagi, but it does make sense.

As for Tuilagi at 12... yeah, I think he might be onto something, but that requires a) More 13s b) More work done on Tuilagi's creative vision. That's a future project, not right now.

I find his tighthead comment ludicrously misplaced, Dan Cole has been an excellent England servant already and has been asked to shoulder an unenviable burden this year, David Wilson had an excellent summer and deserves a chance to build on it - and Will Collier and Kieran Brookes are in nappies. Particularly Brookes. Brookes has genuinely done nothing at Premiership level to suggest he should go to a World Cup in two years time.

Attwood is a bit bigger than Launchbury - mindyou, according to the RFU, he just shrunk an inch and gained 4 lbs, which would make him a fair bit bigger, but is a dubious claim - but only a bit; whether he is strong enough to do the tight guy role at international level is still in question. Launchbury and Parling will get first bite of the cherry in Autumn if fit for a good reason, they've been a really good combo, and even with the argument of balance Attwood has got his work cut out there.

And, uhm, Luke Wallace/Sam Jones in the EPS? Really? If he named Will Fraser his argument might have made sense, but he didn't, and it doesn't and that's a hugely talented trio of guys who can form partnerships between them if needed in Robshaw, Croft, and Wood. There's commitments to ideals and there's blind ideology, this is the former to me - 3 best flankers and the best openside - and I am happier with that than naming opensides for the sake of it.

Not sure Yarde hasn't got top end pace either tbh. Not saying he does have it, but he looked pretty quick this summer...

 

[ratsapprentice]

As I've said before, the "official" measurements of players are not always to be trusted. The RFU have all three down as being 6'6".
With Attwood as 118kg, Launchbury at 115 and Parling at 114, which would sound about right to me.

But even if they were the same weight, it wouldn't make all that much difference.
They all look like they are at roughly the correct weight for their build (not trying to say that Parling looks like a supreme athlete!).
Manu Tuilagi and Nick Wood are both listed as 6'1" and 112kg, by your logic that would mean they are both equally capable as athletes in all respects.

 

[ratsapprentice]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p>Wasps wing Tom Varndell has been invited to train with England's EPS and Saxons squads in Loughbrough this week <a href="https://twitter.com/search?q=%23rugby&amp;src=hash">#rugby</a></p>&mdash; Rugby World (@Rugbyworldmag) <a href="https://twitter.com/Rugbyworldmag/statuses/366664041256591360">August 11, 2013</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[j'nuh]

Is he replacing someone who is unwell, or training in addition to everyone else?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

From what I've seen it's in addition - though maybe they have doubts over the fitness of Goode?
May or Daly are already in the Saxons to cover, though.

Either way it's good that England are noticing back-three players who aren't fullbacks.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Daly is currently injured.

 

[Crapspray]

Maybe Lancaster's over-compensating for last season? Trying to absolve the sin of Goode/Brown.

Perhaps he's trying to sneak another wing in since he's only got three in the EPS. Though why we need 3 fullbacks god only knows. Bin one of them if that's the case.

I thought the training camp was a few days. I can't see any reason to add an injury replacement, so my money's on addition.

 

[ratsapprentice]

It could be to do with EPS flexibility, and him knowing beforehand that he would be able to bring people in to cover injuries.
As he did last season with Billy Vunipola/Tom Croft.

 

[j'nuh]

Ah, May's had his elbow dislocated in the pre-season game on Friday.

I assume that's why Varndell is in. :/

 

[Peat]

Believe Goode is also already an injury write off for the next window.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Believe Goode is also already an injury write off for the next window.

Thankthebabyjesus.


In other news... Matt Ceviche looks like a proper hard nut with his head shaved.