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English summer rugby

Most players don't fully peak until their late twenties. Like, I thought that was an accepted fact. A player's peak is when they've accumulated as much experience as possible while still retaining their athletic abilities. As for the seven years comment - Flood only got his first run of three games starting as a fly-half in 2009. The period Summer 2010 - 2011 is his only prolonged run in an England shirt at fly-half. I do not believe it is coincidence that the period was also England's best run of results for a long time. Saying "He's had 7 years, how on earth has he not learnt it all" is a bit like saying "Freddie Burns will have been an international for a year by the next window and any slip-up will be hard to forgive" - it completely ignores the paucity of meaningful gametime over most of the period.

I don't accept the argument that it's all about the World Cup. Obviously it's important but it should not define a coach's reign - it clearly does in this case in the minds of many - but it shouldn't. Plus, Johnson had 3 years - Lancaster is entering his third year. It seems very fair to judge the two on what they achieve in the same time period. Which means that if he does not sort the try scoring issue, beat some more SH countries, and win the Six Nations in the next year, I'll say he's done worse.

And if we think Johnson is conservative, what do we think about Lancaster?

Stuart Lancaster has all the tools there to produce a try scoring England. If he doesn't, what excuses can we make? or that Flood is a subpar international fly-half. I want tries and victory, or I want Lancaster's head. Burns has also been in good form, and has huge potential as the sort of player we're looking for, but his Argentina tour was littered with unforced mistakes, and that has to count against him.

I also believe that announcing Tom Wood as captain now would be idiotic. That's because announcing any change in captain now is idiotic - it is basically a hostage to fortune you don't need to give. But that aside, Wood? Dropping Robshaw? We've invested a lot of time in Robshaw as a captain and it looks like it might be paying off. So, let us take it from him, and give it to someone else. That in itself strikes me as risky and poorly thought out. I don't get the whole Tom Wood as leader thing either - he didn't look inspiring against Argentina, and it's not like he does a great deal of it at Northampton. And if we're really serious about "We Must Attack to Win", then locking out one of Robshaw and Croft - or both if we include Kvesic - when they are both superior in attack to Wood, strikes me as a dubious call.

That's exactly my point though Peat, if he's not near enough his potential/peak now then when will he be?
57 senior caps and ten years in the premiership is huge amount of experience, no matter how far apart his opportunities have been.
The fact that he is not roundly welcomed as our number 1 FH has to tell you something...
I don't think he's a "sub-par" international either, I find the idea of him being our first choice rather uninspiring though.
I'd prefer him to Farrell as a bench warmer.

I agree it's not all about the world cup and with what you have said regarding Lancaster.

Tom Wood certainly didn't show himself to be the sort of rousing leader we had been assured he was.
There are 2-3 people who could do the job in the Autumn, depending on who is picked...


Onto the team...

It's pretty much what we expected, isn't it.
We should be able to pick two wingers who can score tries, from the three we have.
I'm gonna assume Yarde is primed to start opposite Ashton.
And it's great to see two great footballers at 12.

Forward pack is much more balanced.
I suspect we'll see a 6 get dropped in favor of Wallace or Fraser come the next EPS amendment.

Good to see Nowell and Tait in the Saxons.

I hope it's last chance saloon for Hartley, Barritt, Lawes (to an extent) and Goode.
 
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MEHHHH

Forwards - great, although I don't believe Billy Vunipola's form for the second half of last season merits anything close to the Elite Player Squad - he makes frequent mistakes including offsides, handling errors, and has just generally dropped off in his all-round game.

I think think Joe Marler must have been teetering on the edge of the squad really, especially with the 'Matt stevens lions snub' - however some strong scrummaging against Argentina has probably saved his bacon. I'd have been keen to see Nick Wood get a shot.

Backs: Great that Lancaster has recognised the need to demote Strettle; But very poor that he hasn't recognised that both Ashton and Goode have not produced ANYTHING of note for England - May and Daly are unlucky.
 
I disagree.

Fantastic. bloody. squad.

I think this is the first time I've ever agreed with nearly every player being in the squad. I wrote down who I'd like to see last night and my squad differs by 3 players: I had Webber, May and Joseph for Eastmond, Ashton and Goode.

And even then, I can get behind Eastmond and even Ashton's inclusion. Eastmond is great, I only didn't include him because I wanted a specialist 13. We now have two wing alternatives to Ashton, so I don't mind him being there as he may return to those heights eventually.

The only call I can't really get behind is Goode.

The Saxons isn't so bad either. I'd have had a few different faces, but the important part is that there are some good players for the EPS to call upon in case of injury.
 
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How many changes can they make to the EPS each time?
I've got six in my head for some reason, and that's how many they've done - so on the balance it's pretty good. Not 100% on Binny (would've had him in the Saxons) but on the whole it's pprreettttyy good.
 
The thing about Billy is that he's by far the most natural replacement for Morgan. In a way, he's a more extreme version of Morgan. Bigger, bulkier, less skilful. The last time Morgan didn't play, we stuck Wood there and suffered for a lack of carriers. And he shows a lot more promise than the other 8s (Waldrom, Crane) available.
 
I disagree.

Fantastic. bloody. squad.

I think this is the first time I've ever agreed with nearly every player being in the squad. I wrote down who I'd like to see last night and my squad differs by 3 players: I had Webber, May and Joseph for Eastmond, Ashton and Goode.

And even then, I can get behind Eastmond and even Ashton's inclusion. Eastmond is great, I only didn't include him because I wanted a specialist 13. We now have two wing alternatives to Ashton, so I don't mind him being there as he may return to those heights eventually.

The only call I can't really get behind is Goode.

The Saxons isn't so bad either. I'd have had a few different faces, but the important part is that there are some good players for the EPS to call upon in case of injury.

I like you - man after my own heart :p

Don't get me wrong, I think it's a strong strong squad and I'm pretty pleased - the vast majority of selections are spot on. It's not perfect, however - I guess what I feel is that Lancaster has repeatedly made lots of the harder or bolder calls, but maybe not done the more obvious stuff, such as with Goode and Ashton.

Vunipola's probably my biggest gripe - I feel he's been fast-tracked purely because of people's excitement in him as a player, rather than it being a reflection of his consistent performance on the field - which just arn't there - as a result I guess I just feel it's a wee bit early for him to be in the EPS. By no means disasterous, though, as he can learn hugely by being around that squad.

I think you're right about him being by far the best back-up to Morgan, but I guess I feel he's some way behind.
 
I didn't want Goode, Ashton and Barritt in the EPS but I can deal with it if they are not in the 23. I am happy to see Eastmond in there but it is a shame May didn't make it. All in all I am quite happy with the squad.
 
I really don't understand how Goode and Ashton are still in the EPS. They have done nothing for England. Infact in the case of Ashton he was a liability because he was so weak in defence. If you're going to do nothing in attack at least don't be a liability in defence. For Barritts lack of attacking ability, at least he doesn't become an easy channel for the opposition to attack.


Anyway, Ashton: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxRX6LXDpWs
 
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I like you - man after my own heart :p

Don't get me wrong, I think it's a strong strong squad and I'm pretty pleased - the vast majority of selections are spot on. It's not perfect, however - I guess what I feel is that Lancaster has repeatedly made lots of the harder or bolder calls, but maybe not done the more obvious stuff, such as with Goode and Ashton.

Vunipola's probably my biggest gripe - I feel he's been fast-tracked purely because of people's excitement in him as a player, rather than it being a reflection of his consistent performance on the field - which just arn't there - as a result I guess I just feel it's a wee bit early for him to be in the EPS. By no means disasterous, though, as he can learn hugely by being around that squad.

I think you're right about him being by far the best back-up to Morgan, but I guess I feel he's some way behind.
Haha, I just like to organise my thoughts! There's probably a list of my 2011 WC squad lying around somewhere. :P

And it's true, Morgan is quite ahead of the rest of the 8s. We are so lucky he chose to play for England, otherwise I might be vouching for a return for Easter. :huh: Being picked for England really spurred Morgan on though, hope something similar happens for Vunipola.

I really don't understand how Goode and Ashton are still in the EPS. They have done nothing for England. Infact in the case of Ashton he was a liability because he was so weak in defence. If you're going to do nothing in attack at least don't be a liability in defence. For Barritts lack of attacking ability, at least he doesn't become an easy channel for the opposition to attack.
Y'know when authors go under a pseudonym to find out whether their books are famous because of their quality, or the author's identity? I think similar applies to Ashton. He's living off earlier success and wouldn't be picked otherwise. It's the promises of the past that entices coaches to pick him I believe. Normally I'd be upset, but there's now plenty of scope to avoid using him, and if he is to return to his best, then it's good that he was picked.

No arguments in favour of Goode though. Perhaps he's there for a Sarries-style plan B? Foden and Brown are head and shoulders above the 15 competition so I don't see the need for a third player.

Encouraging signs so far, but there wasn't any big casualties in this squad selection, so it's hard to gauge whether Lancaster is mixing up the squad, or just tidying the fringes/bench/reserves.
 
Asside from Ashton and Goode I'm fairly happy with the Senior EPS. As Lancatser was limited to six changes (for reasons beyond my understanding) there were always going to be a couple of guys who kept places undeservingly. Ashton is now in the last chance saloon, hopefully having him training alongside Yarde and Wade will convince Lancaster to send him home after the Autumn Internationals. Goode is probably in the same situation, although I would have dropped him and pulled Tait back into the EPS (great to see him in the Saxons).

Forwards look good, nice for Atwood to be back to add some muscle to the row although I think Haskell is unlucky to loose out. I thought he performed well off the bench in the Six Nations but fluffed his lines when given a starting role.

Incidentally, does anyone have a list of the players dropped from the EPS?
 
Coulda sworn that during the summer, he gets a free hand. Actually, yeah, he had seven changes last year.

Most of its good. I'm annoyed about Dylan Hartley, I'm annoyed that Lancaster seemingly was lying when he talked about how the players would have to be disciplined and represent England well at all times, if a ban for swearing at the ref in a Premiership final isn't failing that, then wtf does? Well, we know snapping someone's arm doesn't either. Apparently Lancaster met Hartley and said he was happy Hartley understand all the implications, whatever that means. Can't help but feel that if he understood, the silly pillock wouldn't have done it. Also, Hartley is the definition of military medium, a permanent disciplinary problem, and Webber went well in Argentina. Bonkers call. Or, pick three hookers. Because we don't need three full-backs, three 12s, 3 fly-halves etc.etc.

Alex Goode is very lucky. I also feel that only having one 13 puts insufficient pressure on Tuilagi to perform.

The Saxons... well, I think he's slightly taking the pee here, as there's not actually a legal side there. I'd be irked by that if I were a Premiership coach, the point of the squads is to allow clubs to plan as much as anything, when he's basically announced "Btw, I'll be adding another prop, and I'm not saying who". It's not like we couldn't have ditched one of the 5 locks and 7 back-rows. In fact, we could ditch one of each, and maybe have another hooker. Apparently we're fine, and there's only 4 hookers worth talking about in England anyway. Madness. Or maybe axe one of the 5 guys who predominantly play wing, or one of the 5 who mainly play centre (4 if you believe Daly will be focusing exclusively on full-back).

But yeah, generally fine, except for this...

I think think Joe Marler must have been teetering on the edge of the squad really, especially with the 'Matt stevens lions snub' - however some strong scrummaging against Argentina has probably saved his bacon. I'd have been keen to see Nick Wood get a shot.

Matt Stevens toured as a tighthead. As you may recall, Marler is a loosehead.

I'm disappointed Henry. DISAPPOINT. Give yourself an uppercut :D
 
The Saxons... well, I think he's slightly taking the pee here, as there's not actually a legal side there. I'd be irked by that if I were a Premiership coach, the point of the squads is to allow clubs to plan as much as anything, when he's basically announced "Btw, I'll be adding another prop, and I'm not saying who". It's not like we couldn't have ditched one of the 5 locks and 7 back-rows. In fact, we could ditch one of each, and maybe have another hooker. Apparently we're fine, and there's only 4 hookers worth talking about in England anyway. Madness. Or maybe axe one of the 5 guys who predominantly play wing, or one of the 5 who mainly play centre (4 if you believe Daly will be focusing exclusively on full-back).
Unless it's different this year, the Saxons never have any matches August-December. The next EPS announcement in January will update the squad to have the appropriate number of props, but for now, given no matches or training sessions will happen, all the squad seems to serve as is as an extension of the EPS, to call upon in case of injury.

But it does give us an indication of who is still in Lancaster's mind, for present and future, and who he may have discarded. The most eye-opening was Nowell. Leapfrogging a bunch of players like Abendanon, Arscott and Miller, and beating out promising players of his own generation, like Watson. Seems that Lancaster has a keen eye. Tait ahead of Abendanon too. Also that Deacon, Palmer, Botha, Dowson, Abendanon, Biggs, JTH, guys who have been on the England/Saxons scene for a while, dropping out of the frame. (I'm happy with quite a few of these calls, actually.) I also think it's quite interesting that Wallace has come into the picture, alongside Kvesic and Fraser. Wood was behind Mullan and Catt at the start of 2013, and only got called up as an injury replacement to the Saxons. That he's gone past both, despite being relatively old, could mean something.
 
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Unless it's different this year, the Saxons never have any matches August-December. The next EPS announcement in January will update the squad to have the appropriate number of props, but for now, given no matches or training sessions will happen, all the squad seems to serve as is as an extension of the EPS, to call upon in case of injury.

But it does give us an indication of who is still in Lancaster's mind, for present and future, and who he may have discarded. The most eye-opening was Nowell. Leapfrogging a bunch of players like Abendanon, Arscott and Miller, and beating out promising players of his own generation, like Watson. Seems that Lancaster has a keen eye. Tait ahead of Abendanon too. Also that Deacon, Palmer, Botha, Dowson, Abendanon, Biggs, JTH, guys who have been on the England/Saxons scene for a while, dropping out of the frame. (I'm happy with quite a few of these calls, actually.) I also think it's quite interesting that Wallace has come into the picture, alongside Kvesic and Fraser.

I know. That doesn't change my point about it looking cheap and not utterly in the spirit of the agreement.

Also, we need more hookers. We need more props. What we didn't need was more aging "Never going to be world class" back-rows, which is why we have Waldrom, Crane, Johnson, Clark and Haskell in the squad. Just the guys who'll benefit from coming in for the training camp. As for Strettle and Monye in the Saxons squad... yeah.

Whatever way you look at this, this is a poor call, just it's such a minor call no one's gonna care that much.
 
But Peat, haven't the Saxons been a waste of time since the Churchill Cup was abolished? Playing two games a year in February with a couple of training camps thrown in is hardly a formula for an environment that is going to feed players into the senior EPS with ease. I'm not saying your point about needing more youth and more of certain positions isn't a good one, but in a way until the Saxons get some more game time the use of having players in the squad is limited.

Also, I missed that Hartley was in and Webber wasn't. What the hell?
 
I say sod the agreement. There isn't any other international team in the world that restricts itself by giving so many months notice to clubs about who will be away and not being allowed to change the squad for half-a-year at a time. And to not only inform the clubs of the players that will be away with the EPS, but also players that could get called up from the Saxons.

I'd do away with the Saxons tbh. Announce a 45-to-50 player squad at the start of the year, 10 or so changes allowed halfway in the year, draw squads for tours/tournaments from the wider squad. Make England U20s the A team, lock down players into England nationality like Wales do.
 
I say sod the agreement. There isn't any other international team in the world that restricts itself by giving so many months notice to clubs about who will be away and not being allowed to change the squad for half-a-year at a time. And to not only inform the clubs of the players that will be away with the EPS, but also players that could get called up from the Saxons.

I'd do away with the Saxons tbh. Announce a 45-to-50 player squad at the start of the year, 10 or so changes allowed halfway in the year, draw squads for tours/tournaments from the wider squad. Make England U20s the A team, lock down players into England nationality like Wales do.

This.
 
Patchey, I'd agree the Saxons are in a bit of an odd position at the moment. But it allows the coaches a chance to look at more players in their systems, both in training and on the pitch, and that is valuable. It's not much, but at the same time, when we have this little usage of them, all the more reason to use it to its fullest potential.

And j'nuh, cool, I suggest you write in to Rob Andrew and let him know you'll be renegotiating a new hard line agreement with the clubs, and putting your hand in your pocket to fund the extra money the clubs will want for a worse agreement for them, and also that you'll be fielding any angry phone calls/mending any broken diplomatic fences with the Premiership coaches. I'd agree the situation is far from ideal - but we also get a lot of what we want out of it, and having the RFU act like dicks over it isn't going to improve things. It sucks, but this is the reality - and while we may be the only international team that restricts itself this way, we are one of only two tier 1 teams (iirc) who don't own their major teams by the balls in terms of finance. The other is France. You'd prefer to be France?
 
Patchey, I'd agree the Saxons are in a bit of an odd position at the moment. But it allows the coaches a chance to look at more players in their systems, both in training and on the pitch, and that is valuable. It's not much, but at the same time, when we have this little usage of them, all the more reason to use it to its fullest potential.

And j'nuh, cool, I suggest you write in to Rob Andrew and let him know you'll be renegotiating a new hard line agreement with the clubs, and putting your hand in your pocket to fund the extra money the clubs will want for a worse agreement for them, and also that you'll be fielding any angry phone calls/mending any broken diplomatic fences with the Premiership coaches. I'd agree the situation is far from ideal - but we also get a lot of what we want out of it, and having the RFU act like dicks over it isn't going to improve things. It sucks, but this is the reality - and while we may be the only international team that restricts itself this way, we are one of only two tier 1 teams (iirc) who don't own their major teams by the balls in terms of finance. The other is France. You'd prefer to be France?

True. I'm not saying the Saxon's are worthless, and perhaps 'waste of time' was a little strong. I just find it frustrating, especially when there are so many young players with potential in their early twenties in the Premiership, that there isn't a real 'A' level outlet for English rugby at the moment.
 
I think it fair to say it's not that A level rugby is a waste of time, but that the current set up is a waste of an opportunity. That said, the current model of midweek games in longer tours offers real opportunities of the Churchill Cup kind - but would make more sense with the sort of big squad j'nuh suggested. I think that would make more sense tbh, we could arrange A games and pick teams from that - also sidestepping the weird situation where promising guys on the fringe of the EPS got even less game time than guys in the Saxons.

But, alas, that is not the situation we have.
 

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