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European Champions Cup 2017/18: Pool 4

Just got wind of Geordan Murphy interview. It was slightly poor out of him.
But must add a very good Leicester Tigers man came to speak to a few of us and made a great point. The real way of winning is being street smart. He played in Tigers glory years and they were street smart. Our glory years were street smart and again I think that's why we in Munster respect Leicester so muh. It was them we based our style an learning on. And as he said and I agree we have now trained our new batch that and Leicester are in same process but as he said 12-18months away
 
3 lock and 7 are areas we need to invest IMO, 8 maybe but Mapapalangi i reckon in a season of game time and bulking could be very good.



You look a more mature team than last season, the way you sat back and let Leicester do all the damage to themselves was a sign of it, your leaders in Murray and POM control everything and made sure they was no panic after tait's try.

It's a credit to the development of Munster it isn't the case of having that extra passion tonight it was the case of having that extra bit of smarts that won you the game and that will go along way in how you get on in this cup IMO.
Yep in this post and the one on MF you've got it completely right. Passion is all very good, but passion junkie teams who can big themselves up for the odd game will never win anything meaningful unless they're backed by a very clinical edge and able to separate emotions from occasions like this that required us to punch very clever and grind out a win. I'm really happy with how we played today. On maturing, the on field leadership is something I've been critical of this season, but O'Mahony was a man possessed and constantly made good decisions. Keatley who is a huge confidence player didn't let a bad start shake him. Our backrow has incredible and the addition of an out and out 7 has changed the team. We also have a lot more tried and tested depth in positions. Kevin O'Byrne was a club player last year, but he stepped up bigtime. Our academy is on the straight and narrow and it's nice to see after all the trouncings we took in our years long 'transition' period that was synonymous for being crap.
I still wouldn't rank us in the top two sides in this competition, but we could get there before long if we stay the course and coaching is consistent.
 
On the ref. Can I ask a serious question but not detract from the thread.
How come the English teams struggle to adapt to non English refs?
Like Irish teams and rest of Pro14adapt fine as do French teams.
Like weather you agree or not with a ref it is poor to not study a ref pros and cons.
And this isn't based on 1 game just overall.

Like I think today Tigers and Cole especially tested ref at start to limit today. It was expected but the point being they seemed a bit more cuter than last week.

Matt O'Connor I think though let his anger and frustration filter down to coaches and it hampered them a bit too.
 
On the ref. Can I ask a serious question but not detract from the thread.
How come the English teams struggle to adapt to non English refs?

Is there any Scottish refs?
Irish refs are really ****, i mean Lacey really thanks alot ireland.
Welsh refs like the spotlight to be on them.
french refs don't give a fuk.

sums it up pretty much IMHO.

Murphy as a player got pretty arsey with the refs so wouldn't take much to make him ****** off with them as a coach.
 
Is there any Scottish refs?
Irish refs are really ****, i mean Lacey really thanks alot ireland.
Welsh refs like the spotlight to be on them.
french refs don't give a fuk.

sums it up pretty much IMHO.

Murphy as a player got pretty arsey with the refs so wouldn't take much to make him ****** off with them as a coach.
But Tigs that's my point. Yes they can be poor. But in terms of adjusting to them the English teams seem to struggle. I'm not saying ref is right just in terms of adjusting
 
But Tigs that's my point. Yes they can be poor. But in terms of adjusting to them the English teams seem to struggle. I'm not saying ref is right just in terms of adjusting

Considering across the board English teams are struggling in the breakdown, I think it would point to breakdowns being reffed slightly differently in the Aviva than Top 14 / Pro 14. the odd team here or there being worse isn't surprising but systematically struggling? I find it hard to believe that the Aviva teams all just don't know how to win the breakdown. Take Bath for example, we have F.Louw who clearly knows how to operate there and yet in Europe we struggle. If you're used to playing a certain way with some actions being illegal and then enter a series where they aren't, you won't deal with it. For example in European games you will see a lot more of players bridging over a tackled player and just resting their elbows on the ground prior to an attempted clearout. They won't even go for the ball but rather than being penalised as preventing a ruck, it's given as a turnover.
 
Considering across the board English teams are struggling in the breakdown, I think it would point to breakdowns being reffed slightly differently in the Aviva than Top 14 / Pro 14. the odd team here or there being worse isn't surprising but systematically struggling? I find it hard to believe that the Aviva teams all just don't know how to win the breakdown. Take Bath for example, we have F.Louw who clearly knows how to operate there and yet in Europe we struggle. If you're used to playing a certain way with some actions being illegal and then enter a series where they aren't, you won't deal with it. For example in European games you will see a lot more of players bridging over a tackled player and just resting their elbows on the ground prior to an attempted clearout. They won't even go for the ball but rather than being penalised as preventing a ruck, it's given as a turnover.
But that's my point surely an hour in the week breaking down how a ref views breakdown is vital. Like we know English refs police breakdown differently. And what refs are vocal or lenient.
We bring in Lacey, Brace or Joy Neville and George Clancy to ref training games occasionally and discuss scenarios with us. And how they're viewed from each league. I know Welsh teams do it as Nige does. My point being surely Pro14 isn't only league paying close attention to this
 
But that's my point surely an hour in the week breaking down how a ref views breakdown is vital. Like we know English refs police breakdown differently. And what refs are vocal or lenient.
We bring in Lacey, Brace or Joy Neville and George Clancy to ref training games occasionally and discuss scenarios with us. And how they're viewed from each league. I know Welsh teams do it as Nige does. My point being surely Pro14 isn't only league paying close attention to this

It depends on how in line the interpretation is with what you are used to. Carrying on as before with minimal change is much easier than having to remember to play differently at the breakdown. That extra second of thinking time makes the difference, or leads to penalties if you forget. If Pro 14 and Top 14 breakdown enforcement is more lenient and Aviva are used to stricter policing then playing in Europe with lenient rules will already suit the former leagues. This may not be the case at all of course but my personal observation as mentioned above is the prevelance of this bridging technique, particularly among Irish clubs, that I don't really see in the Aviva or internationals.
 
It depends on how in line the interpretation is with what you are used to. Carrying on as before with minimal change is much easier than having to remember to play differently at the breakdown. That extra second of thinking time makes the difference, or leads to penalties if you forget. If Pro 14 and Top 14 breakdown enforcement is more lenient and Aviva are used to stricter policing then playing in Europe with lenient rules will already suit the former leagues. This may not be the case at all of course but my personal observation as mentioned above is the prevelance of this bridging technique, particularly among Irish clubs, that I don't really see in the Aviva or internationals.
But that bridging technique comes from Andy Farrell. Irish clubs were practising what Camp Schmidt tried. It reminds me of the choke tackle. It infuriates opposition but there is technicalities etc. But on the breakdown is it a case the English league isn't doing it correct. I'm not saying it is or isn't but like they seem to be the only league struggling to adapt. I fully accept your point on playing differently and the extra second but equally think it's the same for all teams and just that the attention to detail is possibly different
 
But that bridging technique comes from Andy Farrell. Irish clubs were practising what Camp Schmidt tried. It reminds me of the choke tackle. It infuriates opposition but there is technicalities etc. But on the breakdown is it a case the English league isn't doing it correct. I'm not saying it is or isn't but like they seem to be the only league struggling to adapt. I fully accept your point on playing differently and the extra second but equally think it's the same for all teams and just that the attention to detail is possibly different

I couldn't say for certain, it clearly happens in all leagues. It's just I found it noticeable as a definite plan among all the Irish clubs and cannot remember seeing such widespread utilisation in Aviva. You are right in that it's like the choke tackle, everyone would do it some time but Ireland in particular did it more than the others. I'm pretty certain though that the choke tackle is legal but bridging isn't. If you are competing in a ruck, you can't seal the ball off with your body preventing release. If you are competing for the ball you must be supporting your body weight. Bridging over and putting your weight on your elbows past the ball is neither supporting your weight nor allowing release, but I'm yet to see it get penalised in the European games. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong on that but I'm pretty sure it is not a legal tactic.
 
I couldn't say for certain, it clearly happens in all leagues. It's just I found it noticeable as a definite plan among all the Irish clubs and cannot remember seeing such widespread utilisation in Aviva. You are right in that it's like the choke tackle, everyone would do it some time but Ireland in particular did it more than the others. I'm pretty certain though that the choke tackle is legal but bridging isn't. If you are competing in a ruck, you can't seal the ball off with your body preventing release. If you are competing for the ball you must be supporting your body weight. Bridging over and putting your weight on your elbows past the ball is neither supporting your weight nor allowing release, but I'm yet to see it get penalised in the European games. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong on that but I'm pretty sure it is not a legal tactic.
I agree but as BT highlighted Friday night. The "support your own weight" is rarely enforced. And that is where the studying of the ref becomes effective. Again I'm not saying it's legal 100% just as I said a bit shocked at lack of attention to detail
 
But that's my point surely an hour in the week breaking down how a ref views breakdown is vital. Like we know English refs police breakdown differently. And what refs are vocal or lenient.
We bring in Lacey, Brace or Joy Neville and George Clancy to ref training games occasionally and discuss scenarios with us. And how they're viewed from each league. I know Welsh teams do it as Nige does. My point being surely Pro14 isn't only league paying close attention to this
Not sure that'd be any help!
 
I think it has far more to do with than just refereeing, it's a factor yes but not the sole or primary reason English sides have struggled this year. Having watched a lot of Pro14 rugby and a little top14 the breakdown is a contest more often than it isn't, whereas from what I've read about the Prem and observed watching English sides in Europe they contend it far less, hoping one or two of their specialist jackles can win them a turnover only when the opportunity arises and that worked very well for Exe in particular when they were hammering us with a blitz defence. The problem with that is that if/when you start losing the battle at the gainline against sides who are used to having to protect ball at almost every breakdown you're going to stop winning turnovers, likewise in attack you'll have players hitting more rucks than their used to which will affect the system in place and cause unforced errors, I think we saw examples of both of this in Exe's and Leicester's games as well as Bath last week where the provinces and Toulon could build phases better, play the game at their pace and score some crucial points while the English sides made some frustrating and costly errors, Wasps probably adapted the best this weekend.

The styles in the Pro14 and Top14 vary a little bit more too, I think Premiership sides are all following the Jones model, maybe with the exception of Bath and Wasps who play a faster, wider game, where dominance is achieved up front and the backs are then used to wreak havoc. In the Pro14 you have sides like Munster, Treviso and Edinburgh who'll play like this, Scarlets, Glasgow, Ulster, Connacht and Zebre who employ some smart organised chaos, Leinster and Cheetahs who can do both and then some trash who can be used to get the kids up to pace. Right now I think the Pro14 and Top 14 a little bit more balanced and more innovative, I think the Italians this year is a testament to that as they slowly get places, whereas the Prem is a few different variations on the same formula for the most part which will lead to them struggling to adapt to different styles of play as much as they do a referee. It's probably a result of Sarries dominance and everyone trying to copy and better that. No league is left behind for long in any case, two seasons ago no Pro12 side progressed past the knockout stages and the media both home and abroad had you believe we were in crises and last year Clermont were the only French side worth mentioning while Toulouse and Toulon limped their way through weak groups, so if it's not addressed and fixed by January or March it will be next year and probably result in a more entertaining domestic league too.
 
I agree but as BT highlighted Friday night. The "support your own weight" is rarely enforced. And that is where the studying of the ref becomes effective. Again I'm not saying it's legal 100% just as I said a bit shocked at lack of attention to detail

True but there are varying degrees of bending the rules. If both your forearms are on the floor beyond the ball and never come off the ground, that is about as clear as not supporting your weight as you can get short of actually flopping down on them. Also Alpha you make a valid point and I'd agree that English clubs compete less, but that then begs the questions couldn't it be they compete less due to stricter reffing of the breakdown and the increased likelihood of conceding a penalty rather than getting a turnover? English clubs could be struggling at the breakdown because actions that would be illegal in the Aviva are not being blown up as illegal in Europe (not releasing, bridging etc). Essentially the breakdown favours sides that go to challenge frequently.

This isn't to claim all English teams lost just because of reffing differences in the breakdown but when you have English teams with players who have a proven ability to turn the ball over who in one year all suddenly lose the ability and that sudden loss of ability is predominantly with one league, well dismissing it as English clubs should git gud kinda sounds hollow.
 
True but there are varying degrees of bending the rules. If both your forearms are on the floor beyond the ball and never come off the ground, that is about as clear as not supporting your weight as you can get short of actually flopping down on them. Also Alpha you make a valid point and I'd agree that English clubs compete less, but that then begs the questions couldn't it be they compete less due to stricter reffing of the breakdown and the increased likelihood of conceding a penalty rather than getting a turnover? English clubs could be struggling at the breakdown because actions that would be illegal in the Aviva are not being blown up as illegal in Europe (not releasing, bridging etc). Essentially the breakdown favours sides that go to challenge frequently.

This isn't to claim all English teams lost just because of reffing differences in the breakdown but when you have English teams with players who have a proven ability to turn the ball over who in one year all suddenly lose the ability and that sudden loss of ability is predominantly with one league, well dismissing it as English clubs should git gud kinda sounds hollow.
True but it is an interesting debate.
Like I think the allowing of competition at breakdown is a good thing and it is a fair debate. But I do also think the English teams didn't/don't do alot of analysis in adapting and that was a key part
 
I definitely feel like the Aviva refs are stricter.
You're going to get away with far less shenanigans at the breakdown under Wayne Barnes than some of the Pro14 refs.
The split second of hesitancy, reminding yourself to go beyond the ball and get cleared out onto it etc. is the split second that support players arrive and the rucks lost anyway
Obviously not saying all Prem forwards are squeaky clean but I'm definitely feeling the same way as RageRancher, where the stricter enforcenent of the rules in the prem means sides aren't as interested in competing because it's too easy to concede a pen
 
True but it is an interesting debate.
Like I think the allowing of competition at breakdown is a good thing and it is a fair debate. But I do also think the English teams didn't/don't do alot of analysis in adapting and that was a key part

With adapting think of it like this, have you seen that thing where you have the colours written out but the colour of the word is different to the word itself? Eg "blue" written in red. Most people can adapt to read the colour of the word rather than the word itself but it takes time and you still can't do it as quickly as just reading the word. Likewise if there is a difference between how breakdowns are reffed in the Aviva and the Pro14/Top14 and European games then it's like asking the Pro14/Top14 to read the word and the Aviva clubs to say what colour the word is written in. You can adapt all you want but actions that require you to go against what is natural to you is more difficult than just doing what is natural.

So with English clubs competing less, would that be a cause of different breakdown attitudes or a symptom of it?
 

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