Former players turn out for Tier 2 Nations

[higgik]

Surely if you want to play for your country of residence then you should take up citizenship. That would make a big difference, giving up your nationality of birth would make a lot of the project players think twice, as most want to return to their motherland when retired.

 

[Which Tyler]

Which would make much more sense if A] dual citizenship didn't exist; and B] all could tries had the same rules for citizenship, making the rule one-size-fits-all

 

[Kiwiwomble]

just to clarify my thoughts, it would need to be either they played less than five games or they were going back to their country of birth, someone like piutau would be out, born in NZ and had a good run with the AB's.

The argument on here probably proves that its not worth dabbling in as it gets very complicated very quickly,

do we take it the other way and restrict all eligibility right back to country of birth or maybe only residency before the age of 10 just to capture those kids that move before becoming involved in a countries development systems. guys like fekitoa and naholo would still make a good living playing club rugby in NZ or overseas but to show off on the international side they would turn out for tonga and fiji respectively.

would that help those tier two nations without corrupting the system?

 

[mania]

However a born and bred New Zealander of Samoan heritage, such as Charles Piutau, brought through the NZ schools and academy system, nurtured by the All Blacks would be a different story. His wanting to now play for Samoa merely sounds opportunistic to me and shouldn't be allowed to happen.

nz born islanders are still islanders. true that nz develops them but that doesnt mean they own them. NZ gets their moneys worth from them when they win games for which ever NZ team they're playing for.
how is this different for people like tanieluTupou, seanMaitland and bundeeAki who have grown up in NZ but play for other countries?

 

[mania]

just to clarify my thoughts, it would need to be either they played less than five games or they were going back to their country of birth, someone like piutau would be out, born in NZ and had a good run with the AB's.

ok now u guys are forgetting what its like to be a player.
so piutau misses out and we'll never again have the privilege of seeing him play on the test stage?
sorry but thats pedantic and mean spirited. these players want to play at test level and we as rugby lovers should be hanging out to see some of this great talent on the sidelines . whats the point of rugby if all the rules want to do is to stop people from playing? i dont think the spirit of these eligibility laws are correct.
i dont know the correct level but the POV we should be coming from is that of getting the most talented players on the test field as possible.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

nothing is stopping him coming back and trying to play for the AB's again...him not playing international rugby is on him not on the rules

i was keen before but i have to say listening to how far it could be taken makes me want to strengthen the rules because it does start to sound ridiculous

 

[mania]

nothing is stopping him coming back and trying to play for the AB's again...him not playing international rugby is on him not on the rules

i was keen before but i have to say listening to how far it could be taken makes me want to strengthen the rules because it does start to sound ridiculous

but he cant play test rugby because he's overseas. NZ's policy prevents him playing for the ABs but he's still eligible and he has so much talent that should be seen at test level.
strengthening the rules would only benefit the tier1 teams.

 

[Five Meters Out]

but he cant play test rugby because he's overseas. NZ's policy prevents him playing for the ABs but he's still eligible and he has so much talent that should be seen at test level.
strengthening the rules would only benefit the tier1 teams.

What you are in effect arguing is - Average NZ rugby fan pays club/school/provincial subscriptions and buys tickets to games, which helps fund NZ rugby. NZ rugby uses this money to develop Piutau's natural god given talent. Playing for the AB's puts him in the shop window. He cashes in with a multi million dollar contract to a Northern Hemisphere club. He then switches to play internationals for Tonga.
So Piutau is playing for Ulster in our summer (when we're watching cricket) and he's playing for Tonga and us NZ rugby fans should be happy about that, all because his great talent is back on the international stage???

 

[mania]

What you are in effect arguing is - Average NZ rugby fan pays club/school/provincial subscriptions and buys tickets to games, which helps fund NZ rugby. NZ rugby uses this money to develop Piutau's natural god given talent. Playing for the AB's puts him in the shop window. He cashes in with a multi million dollar contract to a Northern Hemisphere club. He then switches to play internationals for Tonga.
So Piutau is playing for Ulster in our summer (when we're watching cricket) and he's playing for Tonga and us NZ rugby fans should be happy about that, all because his great talent is back on the international stage???

Five Meters Out - yes that is what im saying in its most simplified form. i didnt say this was an argumnent i could win.

my counter argument however is that its been done by NZ with Sivivatu, Fekitoa, taweraKerrBarlow etc. NZ doesnt mind doing it to other players and nor do these unions own these players. these players that have been developed by the unions; it hasnt been for pure altruistic reasons and those players paid the unions back by winning games for them.

i'd also like to point out your line "natural god given talent". yes and this talent comes from their genetics and their upbringing, not the union. so the union develops their rugby skills, but everything else, their strength, speed, co-ordination, workEthic, intelligence and warrior spirit comes from their genetics and upbringing. all the unions did was teach them rugby. most wouldve had success in a myriad of other (less entertaining) sports, eg im a huge fan of gridiron and samoans have shown a lot of success in NFL.

but i fully get where your coming from. but at some stage when is the "development debt" end and the player is no longer in servitude/bondage to the union?

let me point out tho that piutau is a unique case, and his situation has turned up exactly once in the 40 years that ive watched rugby. no one has ever been in the situation he's in. but how about if he wasnt making millions? wouldnt that mitigate the argument and lean it more towards my stance?

 

[Immenso]

no thats not what i'm saying. again your a have that want s to stop the have nots.
but its ok for tier1 nations to benefit? thats my point.
and dont tell me NZ developed them, because thats only half the equation. their genetics gave them their speed, strength , co-ordination and warrior spirit.

Its more than half the equation.
An NZ Born Samoan team selecting from a population of 150,000 would annihilate a Samoan Born Samoan team selecting from a pool of 200,000.

This shows to me the development and coaching play quite a part.

 

[mania]

Its more than half the equation.
An NZ Born Samoan team selecting from a population of 150,000 would annihilate a Samoan Born Samoan team selecting from a pool of 200,000.
This shows to me the development and coaching play quite a part.

and yes this is because NZ has better economy, coaching and facilities. comes down to money again .
thank you for iterating the divide between the haves and have nots.

and either way, the NZ development didn't have 100% to do with their success. (Samoan, Fijian, Tongan etc) genetics had a super huge role to play

 

[Immenso]

IMO, a game between these 2 teams would be a blowout.

Samoan Born:
15 Toeava
14 Nanai
13 Tuilagi
12 Leiua
11 D Smith
10 L Laulala
9 ?
8 Fa'asalele
7 ?
6 Fa'osiliva
5 ?
4 ?
3 N Laulala
2 Elia
1 Mulipoli

NZ Born:
15 TNW
14 Savea
13 Aso
12 Aki
11 Li
10 Perofeta
9 Enari
8 Vito
7 Savea
6 Luatua
5 Tuipulotu
4 Fatialofa
3 Faumuina
2 Aumua
1 Seiuli

For simplicty's sake, i left out NZ born Samoans with mixed ethnicity like Sopoaga, Ioane brothers, SBW etc

 

[mania]

IMO, a game between these 2 teams would be a blowout.

not sure your point but your blog is correct.
however these are still Samoans who are eligible to play for Samoa. all the NZ borns can play for Samoa. those overseas like Vito, Luatua, Faumuina would be vital for Samoa and would make a huge difference. but because they played for NZ or arent wanted anymore could still contribute on the test stage.

 

[Immenso]

and yes this is because NZ has better economy, coaching and facilities. comes down to money again .
thank you for iterating the divide between the haves and have nots.

and either way, the NZ development didn't have 100% to do with their success. (Samoan, Fijian, Tongan etc) genetics had a super huge role to play

This part; "comes down to money again". I'll disagree with.
IMO it's the NZ system.
While comparatively rich on a global rugby scale I agree. The strength of the NZ system involves plenty of selfless volunteers at the bottom, up to good coaching and administration at the top. There is a pyramid system. Eventually (quickly) talent is identified, coached and rewarded.

Where as if i was to compare to the Samoan system (as an outsider). I don't doubt there are also selfless volunteers at the bottom in Samoa.

I doubt the Samoan system has as good a 'pyramid' funnelling talent to the top, and that partly comes down to money, but also partly just through good administration & governance creating the playing structures.

I most definitely doubt Samoa has good coaching and administration at the top. I very much doubt all the talent is identified, coached and rewarded. Instead i suspect talent can become pawns as adminisitration positions are secured by strengthening family/church/village bonds through selection and coaching appointments.

This part; "(Samoan, Fijian, Tongan etc) genetics had a super huge role to play". I'll agree with.
The growing percentage of PI ethnic players in NZ rugby is obvious.

The NZ system rewards talent. Talent increases the success and prestige of the school. club, province, SR franchise etc. If a NZ PI kid has the talent (and they disproportianetly do) then they will progress and get the access to awesome NZ coaching system.

There isn't some administrator or coach somewhere in the system blocking the path of an aspiring NZ rugby player because he isn't white, or went to the wrong school or club or church etc (Or very few of them anyway, it does pay to play for a good club ..... )

 

[Immenso]

not sure your point but your blog is correct.
however these are still Samoans who are eligible to play for Samoa. all the NZ borns can play for Samoa. those overseas like Vito, Luatua, Faumuina would be vital for Samoa and would make a huge difference. but because they played for NZ or arent wanted anymore could still contribute on the test stage.

The point was just to illustrate, via a team list of the best qualified player in each position, how much better the 15 best NZ Samoans are than the 15 best Samoan born payers are.

Therefore demonstrating that coaching and development plays a huge role, regardless of genetics.

 

[mania]

This part; "comes down to money again". I'll disagree with.
IMO it's the NZ system.

for a non Samoan your opinion is very accurate.
yes its NZ's superior grassroots system, peopled by invaluable volunteers that puts NZ so far ahead of the world.
however my argument isnt just about NZ. its about all tier1 nations. its just comes across as its about Samoa because depending which blog u read. but i'm arguing for Samoa, Tonga, Fiji, Tokelau, Scotland, Ireland any nation that could use players that tier1 nations have no use for anymore.
another thing that affects Samoa is its poverty, which isnt like a typical 3rd world poverty but just as little money. Samoans grow a lot of their food...if the families are good and work hard. so the need for money/cash isnt as high as in developed countries. however that means less disposable income to go on non essentials. most Samoan families are just trying to make ends meet. having money to get to a rugby game is secondary to working the plantation and making sure everyone gets fed.. having a TV, to watch rugby, is a non essential.

Therefore demonstrating that coaching and development plays a huge role, regardless of genetics.

genetics has a massive part to play in whether your a good player or not. your example doesnt take into account the poverty that Samoans grow up in vs the "luxury" (i say that with irony) NZ borns get.

thats the whole reason Samoan parents left Samoa. more money, better schools, health and education services etc. kinda like how kiwi's go to Aus.

love your description of NZ grassroots which i'm stealing and using for my other arguments i have with Australians and their state of rugby.

 

[mania]

There isn't some administrator or coach somewhere in the system blocking the path of an aspiring NZ rugby player because he isn't white, or went to the wrong school or club or church etc (Or very few of them anyway, it does pay to play for a good club ..... )

agree there isnt some bogeyMan keeping Samoa (Tonga and Fiji etc) down. its just that rules disadvantage Samoa from getting access to Samoan players (or tongan or fijian etc)