Guinness Pro 12 2014/15: Round 5

[iINDOMINUSxx]

Yeah, hopefully! I hope he gets some game time this year.

after today im pretty sure he will get more game time,

 

[big ginger 8]

That's where selection is a big issue. Leinster have played 5 times this season. Jimmy Gopperth has started all 5 games at 10. Nobody else is getting a look in despite Gopperth's limitations. Likewise Darragh Fanning has started all 5 games on the wing and Sean Cronin has 5 starts at hooker. The squad isn't being rotated well enough. Not to pick on Gopperth, Fanning and Cronin but it's not as though they're playing so well that they can't be kept out of the team.

Gopperth is our best 10 at the moment. I know Madigan has his fans but despite being as you say limited Gopperth is a better outhalf than Madigan. Madigan has also been covering centre leaving us with Marsh or Crosbie as our only options (Marsh is also just after getting injured) maybe Marsh should have got a go but they're not exactly guys you put in when the team is not doing so well.

Regards Fanning, we haven't had DK or Fitzgerald available so far this season. While we only had Kirchener for a game and a hald and McFadden for about the same. MOC clearly doesn't rate SCM, which I do think he is probably wrong of him. McGrath while a livewire on attack has shown himself to have such poor positioning that he needs to be coached from the sideline and isn't trusted to take a high ball. Fanning has also being playing quite well imo and I think has been a justified selection.

Then finally at hooker we've haven't had Strauss or Dundon yet leaving us with Bryan Byrne as our replacement. He has in fairness looked decent in his cameos but clearly you pick Cronin every time.

I reckon neither Fanning or Cronin will start vs Zebre. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if we start a very callow team and end up basically sacrifising it. Not sure I'd agree with it but I can see it happening.

 

[iINDOMINUSxx]

Gopperth is our best 10 at the moment. I know Madigan has his fans but despite being as you say limited Gopperth is a better outhalf than Madigan. Madigan has also been covering centre leaving us with Marsh or Crosbie as our only options (Marsh is also just after getting injured) maybe Marsh should have got a go but they're not exactly guys you put in when the team is not doing so well.

Regards Fanning, we haven't had DK or Fitzgerald available so far this season. While we only had Kirchener for a game and a hald and McFadden for about the same. MOC clearly doesn't rate SCM, which I do think he is probably wrong of him. McGrath while a livewire on attack has shown himself to have such poor positioning that he needs to be coached from the sideline and isn't trusted to take a high ball. Fanning has also being playing quite well imo and I think has been a justified selection.

Then finally at hooker we've haven't had Strauss or Dundon yet leaving us with Bryan Byrne as our replacement. He has in fairness looked decent in his cameos but clearly you pick Cronin every time.

I reckon neither Fanning or Cronin will start vs Zebre. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if we start a very callow team and end up basically sacrifising it. Not sure I'd agree with it but I can see it happening.

and you have sexton coming back for next season

 

[IainTheScot]

Glasgow 40 Treviso 23. Not a great game for Glasgow, riddled with stupid errors, poor scrummaging and bad discipline. Got 6 tries, which is always a positive. We'll need to improve the defence for the Ulster game.

 

[iINDOMINUSxx]

Glasgow 40 Treviso 23. Not a great game for Glasgow, riddled with stupid errors, poor scrummaging and bad discipline. Got 6 tries, which is always a positive. We'll need to improve the defence for the Ulster game.

despite glasgow having a slow start that is a good score for them

 

[Thingimubob]

Scarlets 13 - 3 Dragons at the moment.

Pretty fast paced entertaining start, two early injuries to Gareth Davies and Ben John though, gone a bit scrappy since.

 

[Peat]

Glasgow 40 Treviso 23. Not a great game for Glasgow, riddled with stupid errors, poor scrummaging and bad discipline. Got 6 tries, which is always a positive. We'll need to improve the defence for the Ulster game.

I hope you need to but don't - but Ulster have yet to really fire on all cylinders yet. Nervy about this one.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

Gopperth is our best 10 at the moment. I know Madigan has his fans but despite being as you say limited Gopperth is a better outhalf than Madigan. Madigan has also been covering centre leaving us with Marsh or Crosbie as our only options (Marsh is also just after getting injured) maybe Marsh should have got a go but they're not exactly guys you put in when the team is not doing so well.

Regards Fanning, we haven't had DK or Fitzgerald available so far this season. While we only had Kirchener for a game and a hald and McFadden for about the same. MOC clearly doesn't rate SCM, which I do think he is probably wrong of him. McGrath while a livewire on attack has shown himself to have such poor positioning that he needs to be coached from the sideline and isn't trusted to take a high ball. Fanning has also being playing quite well imo and I think has been a justified selection.

Then finally at hooker we've haven't had Strauss or Dundon yet leaving us with Bryan Byrne as our replacement. He has in fairness looked decent in his cameos but clearly you pick Cronin every time.

I reckon neither Fanning or Cronin will start vs Zebre. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if we start a very callow team and end up basically sacrifising it. Not sure I'd agree with it but I can see it happening.

Do you think Jimmy Gopperth is playing so well that neither Ian Madigan nor Cathal Marsh should have had a single start in the 10 shirt? Is Darragh Fanning playing so well that Adam Byrne or Cian Kelleher should remain out of the picture? If Bryan Byrne is now the 3rd choice hooker ahead of Aaron Dundon as seems to be the case, would it not be wise to get him a start in a low pressure home game ahead of the start of the not the Heineken Cup, sponsored by Heineken competition?

I don't think Fanning, Gopperth or Cronin are bad players. Fanning ships a lot of criticism but rarely makes a mistake, Gopperth is a perfectly serviceable 10 and Cronin is deservedly an international. Gopperth has 400 minutes on the field this season. Nobody else has got a look in at 10. Darragh Fanning has played 400 minutes this season. Sean Cronin has played 360 minutes. Their backups aren't getting game time which hurts squad depth and leaves Leinster in the lurch if injuries strike. It's not as though results and performances point to the coach being correct either.

 

[Groundhog]

Having watched only a piece of that match it struck me that Munster weren't particularly clinical and were allowed to grow into the game with a pick and go game that exposed poor pillar work. The work of the Munster backrow can't be understated though, it's an area we have a lot of talent and young talent at that. The concern of centres is going to stop us from beating serious competition, because I reckon Smith is up to getting through the more routine games, but not much more. I haven't made my mind up about Hurley yet.
I'm not going to slate or praise Axel yet. He's only a few games into his tenure. People calling him **** (cmac) need to give him a chance yet. Rarely a coach can step in and force immediate results. Will he ever be a success? I don't know. Penney should have been kept though, can't deny that.
Leinster have real problems. O'Connor has had his amnesty year, it's time he produced results now. His personnel issues aren't that bad, and even so, the gameplan is cynical and a really foolish step away from a skill based gameplan Leinster thrive under.

 

[munstermuffin]

Lads a serious question for likes of Snoop BG8 Cmac etc. is Madigan toast as a 10?
He's played superbly toward end of last season and had good moments this year. But none of it was at 10 and he obviously won't be 10 ever. As with Sexton coming back he'll be main man and when his time is up I'm sure they'll have a younger man or 2. So has he given up on being a 10 which explains his lack of time there?

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Lads a serious question for likes of Snoop BG8 Cmac etc. is Madigan toast as a 10?
He's played superbly toward end of last season and had good moments this year. But none of it was at 10 and he obviously won't be 10 ever. As with Sexton coming back he'll be main man and when his time is up I'm sure they'll have a younger man or 2. So has he given up on being a 10 which explains his lack of time there?

I reckon he'll feature at 10 soon enough and consistently this year, unless Matt O'Connor wants a fast track to picking up social welfare every week by continuing to play Mr. Gopperth!

 

[munstermuffin]

I reckon he'll feature at 10 soon enough and consistently this year, unless Matt O'Connor wants a fast track to picking up social welfare every week by continuing to play Mr. Gopperth!

My point is Madigan hasn't done much in past 15 months to remove Gopperth too. He only played well when he wasn't at 10. And is it a case of if Madigan leaves the centre that Leinster loose something from there? Like look if we are honest injuries happen in rugby and if it were full teams then result may have been different but my view on injuries
Healy obviously huge loss.
Sob a loss but hasn't been explosive the past 12 months.
McGrath and Moore obviously mean loss of depth.
Jennings was a loss as he usually delivers against us. But rest weren't much of loss in my eyes. Being fair it's like for us realistically Earls and fact we don't have a fit 10 were probably our 2 biggest issues.

 

[Amiga500]

The squad isn't being rotated well enough.

Yeah, but in real elite level leagues (like the Aviva Premiership) you don't rotate your squad, not because of the pressures of relegation or qualification for Europe, but because elite level coaches (like me) aren't interested.

Also, in real elite level leagues (like the Aviva Premiership) you don't play expansive entertaining rugby, but insist on tight borefests, not because of the pressures of relegation or qualification for Europe, but because elite level coaches (like me) aren't interested.

 

[big ginger 8]

Do you think Jimmy Gopperth is playing so well that neither Ian Madigan nor Cathal Marsh should have had a single start in the 10 shirt? Is Darragh Fanning playing so well that Adam Byrne or Cian Kelleher should remain out of the picture? If Bryan Byrne is now the 3rd choice hooker ahead of Aaron Dundon as seems to be the case, would it not be wise to get him a start in a low pressure home game ahead of the start of the not the Heineken Cup, sponsored by Heineken competition?

I don't think Fanning, Gopperth or Cronin are bad players. Fanning ships a lot of criticism but rarely makes a mistake, Gopperth is a perfectly serviceable 10 and Cronin is deservedly an international. Gopperth has 400 minutes on the field this season. Nobody else has got a look in at 10. Darragh Fanning has played 400 minutes this season. Sean Cronin has played 360 minutes. Their backups aren't getting game time which hurts squad depth and leaves Leinster in the lurch if injuries strike. It's not as though results and performances point to the coach being correct either.

Eh as I said Madigan has had to cover centre. With Reid out it makes a lot of sense that Madigan hasn't started at 10. As for Marsh yeah I'd have liked for him to be on the bench at least at some stage but it is pretty understandable not starting a 10 with 1 senior start when you're struggling. Unfortunately we won't know if he'd have started vs Zebre now either. I'd say it'd take a pretty ballsy coach to stick in a winger who's just finished at u20s in for a guy who as you say rarely makes a mistake and when you need results. I don't agree 100% with all his selection decisions but imo they're very understandable.

@mm I think Madigan will get some starts at 10 but I'm doubtful of him being a first choice 10 within the next three years at least if ever.

 

[munstermuffin]

Eh as I said Madigan has had to cover centre. With Reid out it makes a lot of sense that Madigan hasn't started at 10. As for Marsh yeah I'd have liked for him to be on the bench at least at some stage but it is pretty understandable not starting a 10 with 1 senior start when you're struggling. Unfortunately we won't know if he'd have started vs Zebre now either. I'd say it'd take a pretty ballsy coach to stick in a winger who's just finished at u20s in for a guy who as you say rarely makes a mistake and when you need results. I don't agree 100% with all his selection decisions but imo they're very understandable.

@mm I think Madigan will get some starts at 10 but I'm doubtful of him being a first choice 10 within the next three years at least if ever.

Maybe he will get a start or 2 at 10 eventually but only to rest Gopperth. He's went from a serious prospect at 10 to being a good player that noone knows where exactly to put him. Sexton will be back next year and well that rules him out of 10 and if he ever wants to be an international then his choices are commit to 12 or 15 or move. But then again where would he go only Connacht (to be a 10) or abroad. It's a very vital time in Madigans career. And I think all Leinster fans will agree. Like I know some will say with Sexton gone on internationals and rest periods he will get time but 2 points are. 1. He wants to be gone on them internationals too and 2. He will want to be playing in the big games as a starter.

 

[big ginger 8]

Maybe he will get a start or 2 at 10 eventually but only to rest Gopperth. He's went from a serious prospect at 10 to being a good player that noone knows where exactly to put him. Sexton will be back next year and well that rules him out of 10 and if he ever wants to be an international then his choices are commit to 12 or 15 or move. But then again where would he go only Connacht (to be a 10) or abroad. It's a very vital time in Madigans career. And I think all Leinster fans will agree. Like I know some will say with Sexton gone on internationals and rest periods he will get time but 2 points are. 1. He wants to be gone on them internationals too and 2. He will want to be playing in the big games as a starter.

That's what I was saying regarding a few starts and not being first choice.

I actually think he's still quite likely to be involved internationally. Schmidt spoke about how much he liked his versatility at the weekend and while Jackson will start if Sexton isn't playing I think Madigan is his preferred bench option as you don't take Sexton off unless he's injured. Schmidt also probably backs himself to get the best out of Madigan.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

My point is Madigan hasn't done much in past 15 months to remove Gopperth too. He only played well when he wasn't at 10. And is it a case of if Madigan leaves the centre that Leinster loose something from there? Like look if we are honest injuries happen in rugby and if it were full teams then result may have been different but my view on injuries
Healy obviously huge loss.
Sob a loss but hasn't been explosive the past 12 months.
McGrath and Moore obviously mean loss of depth.
Jennings was a loss as he usually delivers against us. But rest weren't much of loss in my eyes. Being fair it's like for us realistically Earls and fact we don't have a fit 10 were probably our 2 biggest issues.

I think I've done enough in the last 15 months to displace Gopperth! Madigan has been one of our best and our only creative player this year, our backline needs a serious change and I think a youthful McGrath and Madigan halfback pairing would be a good start.

 

[munstermuffin]

That's what I was saying regarding a few starts and not being first choice.

I actually think he's still quite likely to be involved internationally. Schmidt spoke about how much he liked his versatility at the weekend and while Jackson will start if Sexton isn't playing I think Madigan is his preferred bench option as you don't take Sexton off unless he's injured. Schmidt also probably backs himself to get the best out of Madigan.

True for now but Hanrahan will be a starter for Munster and will overtake him in next 18months as a 10. And with alot more other options it'll only be a matter of time. And Schmidt will be under pressure too if he continues to select him as back up 10 if he's not playing there in meaningful games. Like if he plays there against Zebre then that's pointless too. And like Keatley is carrying an injury but if he clears that up and starts to go well and his kicking (linked to hip injury) improve then he's proven to be versatile in big games and will be stating case too. But from Madigans POV too - Does he want to just be a bench option or be a starter next year? (Well after next season his contract is up isn't it). It'll only be a matter of time too before another younger 10 or 2 emerge to challenge and as I said it's his personal goals as well that will be interesting.
When Teo'o arrives that'll mean D'Arcy back to 12 and well he'll be fighting for spot there too.

 

[Peat]

While Schmidt definitely likes his players versatile and definitely doesn't like taking Sexton off, Jackson did get the bulk of the Six Nations sub slots until the last game when injury concerns over D'Arcy and I think Kearney were cited as reasons for taking Madigan. To me, that says that if Madigan is fighting a bit for form in a Leinster 10 jersey, then he struggles to make the bench because there are worries about something happening to Sexton. The first role of the sub fly-half is to protect the team against an injury to the starter first and foremost, even if its a rare role, everything else is a bonus. To me, that's the lesson of the Six Nations.