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Harlequins v Saracens

It may be 1/4 but not the whole squad, thats my point. Everyone is just fixated on a few people while the guys who deserve the attention are just ignored.

EDIT: If Saracens had a Pacific Islands back line who, in some hypothetical situation, were about to play New Zealand in a testamonial match and performed a haka, everyone would be all "Pffft, look at that! Typical Sarries."

Munster do it and suddenly everyone is all hyperbole (rightfully) about the amazing symbolism and so on.

If that isn't the case then I apologise but that is usually what I feel when I hear what other fans have to say. Considering the amount of immigration into North London, I think it is quite fitting for a North London club to reflect its roots and the diversity of the people who live there. Thus, I have no problem with 1 Saffa, 2 Saffas, 7 Saffas or 32 Saffas in my squad :p
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (munstermuffin @ Sep 20 2009, 03:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (feicarsinn @ Sep 20 2009, 03:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Prestwick @ Sep 20 2009, 02:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You guys have made your purchases over the years and so have we. What nobody seems to mention is that Saracens have one of the best Academy set ups in the GP. Nobody seems to mention Noah Cato, Alex Goode and Andy Saul: three of the brightest players in the England under 20s who yesterday played bloody well when they had the ball. Everyone just seems to want to look at the 6 or 7 South Africans (at least one of which are UK qualified btw) out of a squad of 27...[/b]
Well thats about 1/4 of your squad which is a fairly sizable chunk.
[/b][/quote]

In fairness to Saracens it happening throughout the GP
[/b][/quote]

Not surprising when you consider there's 12 clubs to fill and nowhere near as many players available as some would have you believe. Half the time even the forigen players are developed through the academies here also (case point, the Tuilagi clan form Lestificer.)
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Teh Mite @ Sep 20 2009, 03:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (munstermuffin @ Sep 20 2009, 03:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (feicarsinn @ Sep 20 2009, 03:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Prestwick @ Sep 20 2009, 02:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You guys have made your purchases over the years and so have we. What nobody seems to mention is that Saracens have one of the best Academy set ups in the GP. Nobody seems to mention Noah Cato, Alex Goode and Andy Saul: three of the brightest players in the England under 20s who yesterday played bloody well when they had the ball. Everyone just seems to want to look at the 6 or 7 South Africans (at least one of which are UK qualified btw) out of a squad of 27...[/b]
Well thats about 1/4 of your squad which is a fairly sizable chunk.
[/b][/quote]

In fairness to Saracens it happening throughout the GP
[/b][/quote]

Not surprising when you consider there's 12 clubs to fill and nowhere near as many players available as some would have you believe. Half the time even the forigen players are developed through the academies here also (case point, the Tuilagi clan form Lestificer.)
[/b][/quote]

That is true and if it benefit a club what the harm as it is a professional sport and business after all
 
Also note that people seem to see a lot of the "Saffa 7" or whatever as just gold digging mercenaries. Not so. Ernst Joubert and Schalk Brits especially emphasised that if the rugby was crap then they'd rather be back home playing the rugby they know and love. Hougaard came to Leicester because he thought he'd have a great laugh playing rugby but he almost went back home after a rather traumatic first season in the NH. Brendan Venter convinced him otherwise and since then he's had a big grin on his face.

People have become much more cynical in this day and age. We rant about rugby losing its core values but at the same time we don't recognise when people move to other clubs because they value the actual challenge on the field rather than the zeroes on the paycheque.

EDIT: At the end of the day, Edward Griffiths, SAIL and the "Saffa 7" have so far changed Saracens for the better and I respect them all the more for it.

If they replace the fez with a red and black miners/builders hat and expect everyone to say "ey, brew" at the end of every sentance then maybe I'll change that statement :lol:
 
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2 reasons;

1. Quins already have Evans and So'oialo in the regular squad, so aren't allowed any more foreigners to play.
2. Tiesi is even the best 13 at Quins, let alone the league.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Teh Mite @ Sep 20 2009, 06:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
2 reasons;

1. Quins already have Evans and So'oialo in the regular squad, so aren't allowed any more foreigners to play.
2. Tiesi is even the best 13 at Quins, let alone the league.[/b]

1. Is there a limit on foreigners in the XV? Are you sure? Foreigners are in all teams in high numbers, certainly more than 2.

2. Was Tiesi not missing due to injury? He missed the match vs Leicester last week because of injury:

http://www.union.quins.co.uk/rugby/10275.php

3. You may be shocked to learn that there were five imports in the 2008/2009 Guinness Premiership XV of the season. Gonzalo Tiesi was chosen as the best 13, hence my statement and question as to why he did not play vs Saracens. He played the first two matches. Tiesi, is the best Quins centre, without question. Dean Richards regarded him very highly and always started him.

The best Quins backline (according to me) is:

9 Care, 10 Evans
12 Turner-Hall, 13 Tiesi
11 Camacho, 15 Monye, 14 Strettle

I agree with playing Ugo Monye at fullback. he is a better player than Mike Brown and this enables two good wingers to start. Lowe and Masson are inferior players to the Argentina pair. No wonder the Quins lost. The Quins haven't scored a try since the first match. That match featured Tiesi and Camacho in the starting XV. Camacho scored a try. Camacho is new and learning. he will be comanding a starting place soon enough.

Sky Sports Dream Team:
1. Marcos Ayerza (Leicester Tigers)
2. Lee Mears (Bath Rugby)
3. Mike Ross (Harlequins)
4. Dean Schofield (Sale Sharks)
5. Ben Kay (Leicester Tigers)
6. Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
7. Steffon Armitage (London Irish)
8. Juan-Martin Fernandez Lobbe (Sale Sharks), captain
9. Paul Hodgson (London Irish)
10. Charlie Hodgson (Sale Sharks)
11. Ugo Monye (Harlequins)
12. Seilala Mapasua (London Irish)
13. Gonzalo Tiesi (Harlequins)
14. Joe Maddock (Bath Rugby)
15. Olly Morgan (Gloucester Rugby
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Melhor Time @ Sep 21 2009, 03:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Teh Mite @ Sep 20 2009, 06:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
2 reasons;

1. Quins already have Evans and So'oialo in the regular squad, so aren't allowed any more foreigners to play.
2. Tiesi is even the best 13 at Quins, let alone the league.[/b]

1. Is there a limit on foreigners in the XV? Are you sure? Foreigners are in all teams in high numbers, certainly more than 2.

2. Was Tiesi not missing due to injury? He missed the match vs Leicester last week because of injury:

http://www.union.quins.co.uk/rugby/10275.php

3. You may be shocked to learn that there were five imports in the 2008/2009 Guinness Premiership XV of the season. Gonzalo Tiesi was chosen as the best 13, hence my statement and question as to why he did not play vs Saracens. He played the first two matches. Tiesi, is the best Quins centre, without question. Dean Richards regarded him very highly and always started him.

The best Quins backline (according to me) is:

9 Care, 10 Evans
12 Turner-Hall, 13 Tiesi
11 Camacho, 15 Monye, 14 Strettle

I agree with playing Ugo Monye at fullback. he is a better player than Mike Brown and this enables two good wingers to start. Lowe and Masson are inferior players to the Argentina pair. No wonder the Quins lost. The Quins haven't scored a try since the first match. That match featured Tiesi and Camacho in the starting XV. Camacho scored a try. Camacho is new and learning. he will be comanding a starting place soon enough.

Sky Sports Dream Team:
1. Marcos Ayerza (Leicester Tigers)
2. Lee Mears (Bath Rugby)
3. Mike Ross (Harlequins)
4. Dean Schofield (Sale Sharks)
5. Ben Kay (Leicester Tigers)
6. Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
7. Steffon Armitage (London Irish)
8. Juan-Martin Fernandez Lobbe (Sale Sharks), captain
9. Paul Hodgson (London Irish)
10. Charlie Hodgson (Sale Sharks)
11. Ugo Monye (Harlequins)
12. Seilala Mapasua (London Irish)
13. Gonzalo Tiesi (Harlequins)
14. Joe Maddock (Bath Rugby)
15. Olly Morgan (Gloucester Rugby
[/b][/quote]

South African players count as Engish because of Kolpak Agreement. So do Fijians, Samoans and Tongans.
 
Yeah sorry Melhor, you (and most people actually) rarely get told about Kolpak (or "Empire/Commonwealth Preference" as it used to be called). It is a seperate legal ruling arising after a completely different set of circumstances but it runs along the same vein as the old traditions of allowing Commonwealth citizens to travel to the UK without a visa, EU style up until the 1970s...
 
Thanks, I didn't know. Thats a really strange ruling. It makes no sense to me because:

1, it will not free up more space for English players and thus allow more places to be taken by players elligible to play for England. Rather it groups 'some' nationalities in the same category as English players.

and

2, it will not guarantee more competitive teams across the board as it restricts teams from fielding their best players. i.e. Tiesi and Camacho as stated above.

I found it on the GP site. Thanks for letting me know. Do you think it is good? Appropriate? Fair? Pretty bad for players from New Zealand, Argentina and Canada who are not covered by Kolpak concidering players from South Africa are. Its illogical from the perspective of the sport of rugby.

It is a recipe for players to leave the GP and play in places when they are not under such restrictions. Thinking about certain players I have followed closely over the past 4 or 5 years it makes sense now. Juan Leguizamon, for instance was often not in the London Irish XV because they had other foreigners. Such a loss to the team and the GP. Since leaving for Stade Francais he has taken France by storm. He was the best 8 last season in the Top 14. It makes sense that he was not allowed to be picked rather than wasn't picked on ability as, clearly, he is a World class.

It means players will be less encouraged to stay in England. If Tiesi can't start because of this law then its not in his interests or Argentina's interests for him to stay at Harlequins. I know for a fact that there are French clubs with his name on their wanted list. He'll likely leave after this season to play Super 14 as will others as los Pumas prepare for the 2012 Tri Nations.

http://www.guinnesspremiership.com/about/faq.php

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>
Foreign playersThe legal definition of foreign players is different to one of non-English players.

Bosman and Kolpak
The Bosman ruling reinforced the Treaty of Rome in a sporting context, allowing the free movement of EU national workers around other EU countries. This effectively means any EU national has the same rights as any ‘local’ worker and therefore cannot be defined as a foreigner.

The Kolpak ruling means any person from a country that has workers rights agreements with another, must also treat that person as if they were a local or EU worker. In the case of the UK, this gives workers from South Africa, Tonga, Fiji and Samoa for example, EU rights. However, these rights are dependent on the national first gaining a work permit, so an International player for South Africa may get a work permit and would then be entitled to workers rights under Kolpak. A player for Sharks may not get that work permit and would not then be entitled to any additional rights under Kolpak.

Guinness Premiership rulesThe rule on foreign players has been amended to come into line with the regulations in European competitions. A maximum of two foreign players can now be on the pitch at any one time, at all periods during the season. This replaces the old ruling of one foreign player during the majority of the season and three during international periods. The definition of a foreign player is a player that does not have European working rights. Those classed as foreign players include Australian, New Zealand, American, Canadian and Argentinean players.

Some of the greatest players of the last decade have played in the Premiership and many of those helped develop our local talent. Premier Rugby supports the national side and therefore we support the development of quality English players. However, we cannot operate without recognising the stipulations of employment law.

Rulings such as Bosman and Kolpak mean the term ‘foreign player’ no longer applies to solely non-English players, meaning rules designed to contribute to an English Premiership are difficult to formulate.[/b]
 

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