Ireland vs France - 09/03/2013

[munstermuffin]

Is Fall injured? I thought he played well in previous games and used his size well.

 

[Amiga500]

And ROG was 1 of the players that pulled Munster in to being golden era but his individual performances in gettin scores at vital times were what made him a great.

What about all those times David Wallace had to do his tackling for him?

Did that also make him a great?


Superb kicker but a wildly over-rated fly-half. The Munster pack made him as he never had to worry too much about running a back line.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

Humphreys was unfortunate that he played most of his career with a struggling Ireland side in the 1990's, and with a poor Ulster side, and when he did get the chance with the new generation from Ireland he was impressive and could do everything as good as O'Gara could plus being able to defend better as well (which isn't hard). O'Gara was just fortunate enough to play in better sides than Humphreys did, he was by no means a better player.

This is where your point fall down in my opinion. Humphreys didn't miss many tackles for the simple reason that he went missing in defence and would regularly hide on the wing. He was a liability when the opposition had the ball. Humphreys also hated being tackled and would often ship the ball on to a team mate to avoid contact.

I'm a Humphreys fan and think he was a fantastic talent who developed an outstanding kicking game to go with a strong running and passing game. What I dislked was his temperment which saw him fall to pieces too often. O'Gara's stronger will and refusal to let incidents on the pitch affect him won him the job post 2003 and rightly so. He made the most of his talent while Humphreys could have do so much more.

 

[munstermuffin]

Snoop I think you put it and while I'd say exton is possibly the best all rounded and balanced 10 we ever had I think at moment ROG is best of modern era (Jack Kyle possibly best ever 10) at moment and people say he was in superb Munster team but he was a reason that team were great and it things like DG vs Saints, Wales and tactical kicks. Yes he was poor in defense and there is videos all over of ROG been steam rolled but every time he was creamed he'd get up, dust off and be the bump again. He was brave and had the bit of mental strength that did his part. I think Sexton can be better simply because Sexton is developing a good kicking game (don't think this will ever be as good as ROG), is posibly becoming the best play making 10 in Europe and has a defense and bit of that mental toughness too.

 

[lucky number 7]

I reckon France will do us...big style

 

[munstermuffin]

I reckon France will do us...big style

It depends on few issues. I really think this is a game where ROG may have been handy off bench IF Sexton is out. But I think if we start Madigan at 10 the French will be blindsighted and Madigan is cocky and at times arrogant (all in a good way may I add) that I think he can do the job. Also we need to get balance all over and set pieces on track. Who is calling shots in the lineout and where we most comfortable throwing. Just hope we have a bit of clarity and all playing off one plan. As for game also it worth noting IF we loose we are going to Italy trying to win and avoid finishing last....... A long way from murmurs of Grand Slam after Welsh win

 

[psychic duck]

This is where your point fall down in my opinion. Humphreys didn't miss many tackles for the simple reason that he went missing in defence and would regularly hide on the wing. He was a liability when the opposition had the ball. Humphreys also hated being tackled and would often ship the ball on to a team mate to avoid contact.

I'm a Humphreys fan and think he was a fantastic talent who developed an outstanding kicking game to go with a strong running and passing game. What I dislked was his temperment which saw him fall to pieces too often. O'Gara's stronger will and refusal to let incidents on the pitch affect him won him the job post 2003 and rightly so. He made the most of his talent while Humphreys could have do so much more.

What matches did Humphreys's "fall to pieces"?

I was watching a few Ireland matches from the Gatland era back from about 2001 era lately, and I don't see Humphreys hiding on the wing either. Watch this video of his man of the match performance in the win over Wales in 2001 (note that Humphreys returned to the side after Ireland cost themselves a Grand Slam by losing to Scotland the week before where O'Gara was poor and dropped). His tactical kicking was up on a level with O'Gara, he had 100% success goal kicking, and also if you watch at about a minute in, Humphreys makes in the words of Bill McLaren a "thumping crash tackle" to stop a Welsh attack which ROG could only dream of making. He was by no means a defender along the level of Wilkinson and I'm not saying he did that every match, but he was above the level of O'Gara tackling (which isn't that hard to be fair).



Note that Humphreys played most of the first half of his career in a poor Ireland side in the mid to late 1990's. He only got a 2 or so years with the improved Ireland side. Whilst O'Gara played with that side at it's peak as well as one of the best sides in European rugby history. If O'Gara had been in the weaker Ulster side, or Ireland in the 1990's, then he would have probably fell to pieces like he is doing now that Munster have declined, and like he did famously in the Lions 2009 series.

So what was it that made O'Gara better other than playing in a better side for his career?

And Humphreys was relegated to number 2 after RWC 2003 because he of his age was 32 after that tournament. By the way, I'm not saying Humphreys was miles better than O'Gara, but just O'Gara was one of the most overrated players of his generation, Humphreys was at least as good if not better than O'Gara. There is debate as to whether O'Gara is the best of the professional era, it's not clear cut as some make it out to be.

 

[munstermuffin]

You do know Humphreys was never fully number 1 from 200 Duck and he got few MOTMs so what so did ROG. Nobody is saying he was a bad player just nobody in Ireland (not just Munster) say ROG was well ahead. And you say O'Gara played in a better team but O'Gara was 1 of the reasons the team got better. And it is true what Snoop said and you can watch it as it's hugely shown in 03 Grand Slam decider against England, he bottled up and hid constantly outside on the wing and Keith Gleeson I remember babysitting him more than once. And I'd argue ROG has played in average performing Irish teams on and off from 07 on and a poor Munster team since 09 and has still been doing more than his fair share so he's had it similar to Humphreys and you say he was relegated because of age,,,, Ireland don't relegate because of age ie. Look how long it took Sexton to get in and it only really in past 18months Sexton has held on solely to shirt, reason Humphreys was relegated to the bench is he wasn't as good. And I don't think O'Gara is over hyped as there are hours and hours of video on what he done well. Nobody is saying he was the best 10 in world at any stage but he simply used his skillset with a team that built their plan around that skillset and it was executed superbly and well his temperment and mentality is another thing that can be praised. But he wasn't always great etc like Lions game etc but overall he was in my opinion ahead of Humphreys (who I'd also have beehind Elwood).

 

[falcons1988]

What about Gareth Steenson, who has been playing exceptionally well for the Chiefs, surely he deserves a call-up?

 

[munstermuffin]

What about Gareth Steenson, who has been playing exceptionally well for the Chiefs, surely he deserves a call-up?

Will never get a serious shot while abroad.
And Amiga500 you mentioned ROG being saved by Wallace but it worked and game plan that was done worked so people can argue it but Humphreys went hiding as does Ian now.
People can say all ROG was is a passenger in golden era but you can't achieve all he did and hold personal records he has by being a passenger in a pivotal position

 

[Teh Mite]

O'Gara was a weak link in that "Golden era" side (a description which reminds me of the over-hyped England soccer side of the mid-naughties TBH). Had there been anybody else available, he's have "achieved" a lot less.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Steenson's being playing well enough for Chiefs, but will never get a shot while Madigan, Jackson, Keatley and ROG are fit - don't think he'd be ahead of any of those if he were playing in Ireland either.

 

[munstermuffin]

Mite it true ROG had a lack of competition etc but he achieved well and yes he was poor defensively and Wallace sacrificed a bit for ROG but the tactic worked and it was best you could make out of situation on hand.
And Olyy even if Steenson was playing like Dan Carter it hard to see him been given a chance due to IRFU stubbornness. It killed them every time Geordan Murphy was picked.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

@psychic duck
Humphreys was well known for shirking his defensive responsibilities. It's well and good that you found one clip of a man of the match performance from him in 2001, I'd argue that from 2000-2003 he was better than the Munster man. From 2003 on he wasn't and he never peaked like O'Gara did from 2006-2008 (World Cup 2007 excepted).

I can barely remember details of what happened yesterday never mind 10+ years ago so Iwon't reel off a list of poor Humphreys performances. Off the top of my head, I think he was at the helm for the Murrayfield debacle in 2001 and he certainly cost Ireland against France in 1999. He was very, very poor in the 1999 World Cup.

I re-state, Humphreys had more talent, O'Gara made better use of his talent.

Thank God O'Gara's gone now though. He's woefully off the pace although you'd think he was one of the best players on the planet right now if you rread the inane rambling of Conor George in the Irish Independent. As recently as January he was calling O'Gara a Lions starter!

 

[psychic duck]

@psychic duck
Humphreys was well known for shirking his defensive responsibilities. It's well and good that you found one clip of a man of the match performance from him in 2001, I'd argue that from 2000-2003 he was better than the Munster man. From 2003 on he wasn't and he never peaked like O'Gara did from 2006-2008 (World Cup 2007 excepted).

I can barely remember details of what happened yesterday never mind 10+ years ago so Iwon't reel off a list of poor Humphreys performances. Off the top of my head, I think he was at the helm for the Murrayfield debacle in 2001 and he certainly cost Ireland against France in 1999. He was very, very poor in the 1999 World Cup.

I re-state, Humphreys had more talent, O'Gara made better use of his talent.

Thank God O'Gara's gone now though. He's woefully off the pace although you'd think he was one of the best players on the planet right now if you rread the inane rambling of Conor George in the Irish Independent. As recently as January he was calling O'Gara a Lions starter!

snoopy snoopy dog dog: You're probably right about Humphreys defence. But still, it was at least a bit better than O'Gara's. That one tackle is better than any of O'Gara entire career.

I'm not saying Humphreys was much better than O'Gara, I don't think there was much in it either way, but I don't see anything in O'Gara that makes him so much better apart from playing in a better side. Everything that O'Gara was good at, Humphreys was also just as good at.

O'Gara had his off days as well. As well as single handedly costing the Lions tour, he once also cost Munster the 2000 Heineken Cup final against Northampton, in a match Munster lost by 1 point he missed all 4 kick attempts, 2 drop goals, and conceding a penalty as well as getting intercepted and being saved by his flanker. Humphreys was playing in that match against Wales after O'Gara had played poorly in that Scotland game that cost a Grand Slam in 2001 by the way.

 

[munstermuffin]

Duck as someone who's watched and seen ROG train and play since day 1 I'd say Stevie Wonder was better defending than ROG but he made up for terrible defense with other aspects. And snoop I think we all are glad to see him go as he has declined hugely these last 18months and I think his confidence is shot too from fact he hasn't got legs or skills anymore to adapt to Rob P's game style. But hope people remember ROG for good days he gave and he owes Irish rugby nothing. Didn't want to see him drag out like the bull although Bull wanted to retire but wasn't let.

 

[Gavin]

I remember the 2003 match against France in the World Cup. Ireland were down and out then Humphreys came on and the game change. Ok Ireland still lost but the fact is David 6 years older than O'Gara surely demonstrates how much of a better player he was.

 

[Big Ewis]

Szarsweski has been ruled out, with Guirado called up in his place.

(Anyone having to write about this game likes this)

We're likely to see a loose trio and a back three made purely of Toulouse players. The squad will, in all likelihood look like:
Domingo, Kayser, Mas
Maestri, Samson
Nyanga, Picamoles, Dusautoir
Parra, Trinh-Duc
Médard, Fofana, Fritz (Bastareaud), Clerc
Huget.

Bench:
Guirado, Debaty, Ducalcon, Vahaamahina, Claassen, Machenaud, Michalak, Bastareaud (Fritz)

looks darn good to me ! But then again that's what I said about us from the start of the tournament and uhm we're sort of the only team without a win !! :lol:
But I'm pretty confident here. I know Ireland will be at home, coming off a super disappointing match they should have won in any possible parallel dimension...and eager to bury some demons...but we got this I reckon. The only thing (besides Italy who were really good against us) so far that's been a problem for us is discipline and playing teams that have some. Ireland will commit stupid fouls and mistakes and penalties and all that good stuff themselves, and hopefully they can score some more of that beautiful stuff they've got in store (not too much though !!!) but I think France will take this one.

In fact, goin out on a limb or not, it may go like this: France plays very well early on, everything goes their way, build up a nice lead. Ireland comes right back in the second half, crowd roaring and chanting, France wins by 5 still at the end.

EDIT: never quite sure how handy Szar is in the scrum, somehow never ma,aged to observe him down there...but seeing how solicited he is by French coaches and how bad he is on the field (terrible carrier, has he ever gained more than a meter once ?...) I'm guessing that's his main function ?...lineouts ?...

 

[UlsterRugby2012]

Funny feeling we'll beat France then lose to Italy.

 

[big ginger 8]

This is a really intriguing battle with two tactical masterminds at the helm.