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Is scrum really necessary?

Maybe that's another point for South Africa and why we love this area in Union.

In Afrikaans we have "Skrum" for scrum, and "Losskrum" for ruck, which is actually loose scrum in english. these terms are some of the earliest rugby terms a kid learns when playing the game in SA. It's a fundamental part of rugby union, and should never be removed from the game.

To be completely honest, I wish there was more reverence for scrummaging in Australia, because if there's one thing that annoys me about the management of the game here, its the insistence that Rugby try to compete with the type of spectacle that League offers. League is a fast game, based on ball-in-hand action and raw power. Rugby is a very different game that is fundamentally about the contest for possession at every level first and foremost and thus offers different things, but that should be celebrated rather than regretted as it often seems to be here.

That said, I feel like a lot of former props still have a propensity to talk about the scrum as though nothing else in the game matters, and that sort of sentiment was more what I was responding to.
 
I think a lot depends on if one played the game or not at some point in one's life. I would never be able to appreciate another sport as much as Union. I follow a few others but there is just no comparison. In SA it is the game of choice for the majority of the white population (okay, cricket has a large following as well but the two games don't compete with each other and one is a winter and the other a summer sport) and a growing number of the black majority where it has traditionally been soccer (the reverse is also happening but again, I think there is scope for the average SA sports fan to follow all of Rugby, Cricket and Soccer- then you probably won't be following foreign leagues though). So that means the vast majority of the spectators had a few years of playing even if only in primary school so are much more likely to appreciate the 'finer' aspects of Union and would be well versed in the, lets face it, plethora of laws. I know I found getting into NFL a little tough law-wise without having much input other than the commentators so I can just imagine how much a person with zero Union knowledge would struggle to get 'into' it.

I suppose there is scope for simplification IF it doesn't take away from what makes Union what it is. To that extent one would almost want to say, take away the laws at the breakdowns and scrums; don't pollice the breakdowns or scrums at all; take the onus away from the ref and give it to the players but I suppose safety is a big factor to consider if that is a route to go.
 
In regards to people questioning the aussie depth to field 5 super rugby teams and their reliance on foreign imports, I think the quality of Australian players that head overseas is far greater than the quality of second rate foreigners that bulk up teams like the force, so I think its more financial limitations to sustain 5 teams rather than player depth.
 
I agree that the scrum is a tactical weapon in Rugby, but I don't think it's what defines the extra depth in rugby, which is the claim that was being made. Scrums absolutely have a tactical element, but even in their reduced form in League they do, and my original point was always that rugby's depth comes from rucking more than scrummaging, because that fundamentally changes the way teams view possession when compared with League.

Maybe i misunderstood, but i thought you were asking whats the difference between a scrum in union and league for influencing tactics?

The scrum defines the game in union it's the primary phase of contest for the ball - everything starts with the scrum, it shapes the formation of the team and influences it's entire attack.

Ask any coach in union to set out their team and their attacking strategy, they will not start with rucking, they will start with the scrum and build the team up from there. The scrum will shape the forward pack which will in turn shape the attack and what you are able to do in attack.

If you have a strong front row you can have lighter non scrummaging locks, if you have a strong front 5 you can have a loose back row that gets off early.

If your scrum is strong and going forward you can go for a lighter midfield as they don't need to get you to the gain line, you can have an attacking fly half, you can have a midfield that passes. You can play wider than the opposition because you're first pod has a stable launch pad to release them.

If you don't have a strong front 5 you might need a heavier blitzing backrow, a heavier midfiled unit a tactical kicker at 10 and so on... the scrum directly influences tactics right through out the game of union including rucks.
 
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Maybe i misunderstood, but i thought you were asking whats the difference between a scrum in union and league for influencing tactics?

The scrum defines the game in union it's the primary phase of contest for the ball - everything starts with the scrum, it shapes the formation of the team and influences it's entire attack.

Ask any coach in union to set out their team and their attacking strategy, they will not start with rucking, they will start with the scrum and build the team up from there. The scrum will shape the forward pack which will in turn shape the attack and what you are able to do in attack.

If you have a strong front row you can have lighter non scrummaging locks, if you have a strong front 5 you can have a loose back row that gets off early.

If your scrum is strong and going forward you can go for a lighter midfield as they don't need to get you to the gain line, you can have an attacking fly half, you can have a midfield that passes. You can play wider than the opposition because you're first pod has a stable launch pad to release them.

If you don't have a strong front 5 you might need a heavier blitzing backrow, a heavier midfiled unit a tactical kicker at 10 and so on... the scrum directly influences tactics right through out the game of union including rucks.

Well if you go back and look at my original post and what I was replying to you'll see I was asking how the scrum is what gives Union more tactical depth than League.

I contested that it's the defining point of depth. Perhaps it's because I'm Australian and I played in the backs, but I felt that statement was overblown and when I played in my (admittedly lower level teams) we didn't even have a scrum coach, but we focussed an awful lot on our rucking.
 
Well, Actually, it makes a dualistic effect. You don't see Aussies in South African teams now, do you??

It's because we have too much talented players, and that we don't have space for all of them in our squads. We are even going to be the first nation to have 6 teams in the tournament.

I think your one-eyed view on this is a bit annoying, and instead of taking in what we are saying, to disagree with EVERYTHING is not the right way to go about.

Haha, well I wouldn't say South Africa's great depth is translated into putting out quality teams.
 
1. Rugby in Australia has nose dived because Australia hasn't had success. If Australia won every game for the next three years through ugly, forward oriented drop goals - rugby would come back. As it is they haven't won against New Zealand in four years and haven't won a Bledisloe Cup in a decade. The sport has been poorly administrated and marketed for the last ten years, and the 'golden era' players have all moved on and been replaced by constant scandals.

Thanks for your detailed response. Just on this though...you cannot seriously believe that lack of success is the reason interest in Rugby has nosedived. It's the other way round...the lack of interest has caused the game to plummet. What about the domestic comp?...success has no bearing on interest there.. The lack of interest is such they have players beg fans to come along to games. I was astounded last summer during the Lions series to see the lack of interest of the game in Australia.

45,000 today, 7000 empty seats...for an Aus-NZ game was unheard of a decade ago where 100,000 crammed into Sydney...gold flags and scarves everywhere, sound system blaring...waltzing Matilda played by some bloke on a banjo. It used to be a big national event. And looking at the crowd today a huge chunk were kiwis. 24,000 in Perth for the game against South Africa. 14,000 in the Gold coast against Argentina. Apparently there was little or no publicity in Sydney for that game today (an Aussie mate originally from Melbourne but now in Sydney told me).

The alarm bells are ringing for Union in Australia but it seems a few would rather not face it. It definitely is hampered by league being so big in Sydney/Brisbane...personally I don't think there's room for two codes in the same area...which is the case in the two countries that have two codes. I recall Aus vs NZ getting quite a build up on Sky Sports here (Up to the end of Lomu era)...I'd never miss it. Now there's very little and you'd barely know the game was on (I just happened to be up early after my morning run and seen that it was on).

This decline is also very bad for NZ. Every team/person in any sport needs strong rivals. I have no idea what can be done to arrest the decline of the game in Aus.
 
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People can talk about how crap Aussie are but they have been 3rd or 2nd in the world for most of the past few years. They just look really crap because they always play and lose to us. The early 2000's was a golden run for Aussie rugby but aside from that they have rarely been able to compete with us. The Australians remain a strong rival as doe South Africa and England.
 
On the under-exposed part, that is quite true with my country as an example. You see football everywhere and rugby is nowhere to be seen.

Despite Australia currently having plenty of great players, overall the nation's quality is inconsistent imoo and most players available are mediocre.

Well, Malaysia I imagine is a little trickier as it doesn't really have a strong rugby tradition that transitioned into the professional era. In Australia we have, but the reality is that if you go to the big markets of Sydney and Melbourne the sports news is 90% Rugby League and Australian Football respectively, with the rest filling in the gaps.

Malaysia can never succeed in rugby by genetics of its citizens. They are very small, lower than the world average, while the average rugby player should weigh around 100 kgs, depending on their position. Not to sound racist (In fact many believe that I am) but the genetic is very important for sports like rugby. Malaysians have this disadvantage, also be very difficult for the Japanese to be a basketball power, because their low height makes them inferior in that sport. For some reason most rugby players of Hong Kong are descendants of English or Anglo-Saxon countries. Chinese are too small to play rugby

For the first time, the Miss Universe Malaysia Organisation has done away with the height requirement of 163cm:

http://www.scmp.com/news/asia/artic...malaysia-pageant-contestants-look-too-western
 
Malaysia can never succeed in rugby by genetics of its citizens. They are very small, lower than the world average, while the average rugby player should weigh around 100 kgs, depending on their position. Not to sound racist (In fact many believe that I am) but the genetic is very important for sports like rugby. Malaysians have this disadvantage, also be very difficult for the Japanese to be a basketball power, because their low height makes them inferior in that sport. For some reason most rugby players of Hong Kong are descendants of English or Anglo-Saxon countries. Chinese are too small to play rugby

For the first time, the Miss Universe Malaysia Organisation has done away with the height requirement of 163cm:

http://www.scmp.com/news/asia/artic...malaysia-pageant-contestants-look-too-western

Nonsense. Genetics plays a minor part in relation to them developing as a rugby nation.

First of all, the average height of a Malaysian is 5 ft 5 and a half, but they could be bigger if they ate better. Every time I'm in Malaysia where I would usually eat local I'm having to order extra servings and to ask for more meat to be added into my meal. If you look at their neighbours Singapore who are taller on average, well that's because they're more developed and eat better. Food is a lot more balanced, and the portions are a lot bigger. They are also very into well being and fitness. Given the right coaching, strength and conditioning, and nutrition, Malaysians could play rugby effectively, but it won't happen because they lack the finances and interest for the sport to ever take off.

Japan's average only stands at 5 ft 7 and a half, which is not much taller, and they are doing alright in the sport. The difference is that they are a much more developed country. They also have the rugby tradition in place, and the finances to keep it growing.

Genetics is not stopping Malaysia from playing rugby. You just have to look at the Japanese.

Edit. You know it is racist when you claim certain ethnic groups can't succeed in a sport due to their genetics when that's not the reason. Genetics will affect their style of play, but it won't stop them from being able to succeed given the right tools. Japan have turned over nations of "natural rugby pedigree" despite their size.
 
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Can we not have the "Impact of genetics/diet/native levels of athleticism on a country's international team" debate here please? Even as someone who finds it fascinating, it seems a little off-tangent here and rarely ends well...
 
Can we not have the "Impact of genetics/diet/native levels of athleticism on a country's international team" debate here please? Even as someone who finds it fascinating, it seems a little off-tangent here and rarely ends well...

I agree. I'm not keen to get into it here but I felt I needed to respond to Conrad Smith's post. Back on topic!
 
At the risk of going off topic and just for the sake of putting forward a case for Malaysia. Bryan Habana, Juan de Jongh, Gio Aplon etc. All of mixed Malaysian decent. The Cape Malay people play some bloody brilliant rugby here in the Cape where there is a passion for the game ;that's all you need,, passion.
 
Nonsense. Genetics plays a minor part in relation to them developing as a rugby nation.

First of all, the average height of a Malaysian is 5 ft 5 and a half, but they could be bigger if they ate better. Every time I'm in Malaysia where I would usually eat local I'm having to order extra servings and to ask for more meat to be added into my meal. If you look at their neighbours Singapore who are taller on average, well that's because they're more developed and eat better. Food is a lot more balanced, and the portions are a lot bigger. They are also very into well being and fitness. Given the right coaching, strength and conditioning, and nutrition, Malaysians could play rugby effectively, but it won't happen because they lack the finances and interest for the sport to ever take off.

Japan's average only stands at 5 ft 7 and a half, which is not much taller, and they are doing alright in the sport. The difference is that they are a much more developed country. They also have the rugby tradition in place, and the finances to keep it growing.

Genetics is not stopping Malaysia from playing rugby. You just have to look at the Japanese.

Edit. You know it is racist when you claim certain ethnic groups can't succeed in a sport due to their genetics when that's not the reason. Genetics will affect their style of play, but it won't stop them from being able to succeed given the right tools. Japan have turned over nations of "natural rugby pedigree" despite their size.

Yours is fantastic literature, It's like saying: If all Hindus eat meat (protein), they would be excellent rugby players. Yes, but their religion doesn't allow them to eat meat, and that's something that will never change. It's like saying: If all the Arabs could drink beer, Saudi Arabia would be the world's largest consumer of beer. Yes, but their religion doesn't allow them to drink alcohol and that's something that will never change.

I once read a statistic that said the average American eats 4 times more food than the average Chinese, and that if all Chinese eat the same amount of food the average American, the resources of the earth wouldn't be enough to meet demand. Ok, but that's something that will never change, and if you change, it takes 35,000 light years to happen. The Chinese continue eating rice and Americans continue eating fast food, so Americans are better predisposed to a sport like american football, where size is very important and the Chinese are good at table tennis, where small size is critical.

We must talk about the reality of what happens. And don't say things like: "If all Chinese jumping simultaneously, the orbit of the Earth could change". First they have to agree all Chinese, something that has never happened in history (China was always a separatist country with different ideologies) and then 1.3 billion Chinese should jump at the same time, something almost impossible to happen. So we can't talk about it, because taking something like that as an example, is fancy talk.

If all Malaysians eat as much fast food as Americans, they could produce great NFL players (and also would have problems with morbid obesity and childhood obesity) but that's something that won't change from night to morning. Malaysians won't change their diet from one day to the other, then say that if all Malaysians consume more protein, they would be fantastic rugby players, that's talking nonsense because you can't change the idiosyncrasy and culture of a nation.

Japan is the perfect example what I mean. They have the same number of rugby players than Argentina, there are 125,000 Japanese rugby players and 3631 official rugby clubs, with more money and a professional league and they are still not at the same level as The Pumas. And most players of the Japan national rugby team are foreigners, while the Pumas players are 100% Argies, that's a good example of that genetics is important for the sports. We don't have great genetics, but it certainly is better than the Japanese, for sports such as rugby or american football. Each sport has specific requirements, the Japanese genetics is better for some sports than others, that's the reality.

Then you have no right to accuse me of racist for saying something like that, that's not racism

At the risk of going off topic and just for the sake of putting forward a case for Malaysia. Bryan Habana, Juan de Jongh, Gio Aplon etc. All of mixed Malaysian decent. The Cape Malay people play some bloody brilliant rugby here in the Cape where there is a passion for the game ;that's all you need,, passion.

But you're talking about one style players as Habana or Gio Aplon, rugby requires different styles of players. With players like Habana, Juan de Jongh and Gio Aplon, you can make a great Sevens team but for Rugby XV, you need other styles of players like Carl Hayman, Victor Matfield or David Pocock. That's the problem with Fijians, they produce a lot of talented backs but their forwards are crap, so they will never be leaders in rugby XV as they are in Sevens.

Can we not have the "Impact of genetics/diet/native levels of athleticism on a country's international team" debate here please? Even as someone who finds it fascinating, it seems a little off-tangent here and rarely ends well...

Sorry, I have to defend myself, because I'm not racist and I'm right at the point I am saying.
 
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Yours is fantastic literature, It's like saying: If all Hindus eat meat (protein), they would be excellent rugby players. Yes, but their religion doesn't allow them to eat meat, and that's something that will never change. It's like saying: If all the Arabs could drink beer, Saudi Arabia would be the world's largest consumer of beer. Yes, but their religion doesn't allow them to drink alcohol and that's something that will never change.

I once read a statistic that said the average American eats 4 times more food than the average Chinese, and that if all Chinese eat the same amount of food the average American, the resources of the earth wouldn't be enough to meet demand. Ok, but that's something that will never change, and if you change, it takes 35,000 light years to happen. The Chinese continue eating rice and Americans continue eating fast food, so Americans are better predisposed to a sport like american football, where size is very important and the Chinese are good at table tennis, where small size is critical.

We must talk about the reality of what happens. And don't say things like: "If all Chinese jumping simultaneously, the orbit of the Earth could change". First they have to agree all Chinese, something that has never happened in history (China was always a separatist country with different ideologies) and then 1.3 billion Chinese should jump at the same time, something almost impossible to happen. So we can't talk about it, because taking something like that as an example, is fancy talk.

If all Malaysians eat as much fast food as Americans, they could produce great NFL players (and also would have problems with morbid obesity and childhood obesity) but that's something that won't change from night to morning. Malaysians won't change their diet from one day to the other, then say that if all Malaysians consume more protein, they would be fantastic rugby players, that's talking nonsense because you can't change the idiosyncrasy and culture of a nation.

Japan is the perfect example what I mean. They have the same number of rugby players than Argentina, there are 125,000 Japanese rugby players and 3631 official rugby clubs, with more money and a professional league and they are still not at the same level as The Pumas. And most players of the Japan national rugby team are foreigners, while the Pumas players are 100% Argies, that's a good example of that genetics is important for the sports. We don't have great genetics, but it certainly is better than the Japanese, for sports such as rugby or american football. Each sport has specific requirements, the Japanese genetics is better for some sports than others, that's the reality.

Then you have no right to accuse me of racist for saying something like that, that's not racism

Dude just pm me.
 
People can talk about how crap Aussie are but they have been 3rd or 2nd in the world for most of the past few years. They just look really crap because they always play and lose to us. The early 2000's was a golden run for Aussie rugby but aside from that they have rarely been able to compete with us. The Australians remain a strong rival as doe South Africa and England.


2nd or 3rd best "in the world" is hardly a ringing endorsement when there are less than half a dozen serious teams, and in that half dozen two of them have Rugby as the major sport.

Rugby is not in a position to be able to afford a weak Australia. When I think of Rugby (in my time which is the last 20 yrs) I had seen Australia as the second biggest Rugby team. They were one of the major carriers of the sport. The Bledisloe Cup was the biggest draw in Rugby...box office. The build up, the match ups, the packed stadium, the passion and excitement. All gone. Every sport needs box office. Next week I shall be glued to the tv (as will approx 400 million around the globe) to watch Barcelona vs Real Madrid. The equivalent in Rugby was the Bledisloe Cup until it became what is now...just another test match with a half ar$ed Aussie public and a pale shadow of an Aussie team. It's sad it really is.
 
Can we not have the "Impact of genetics/diet/native levels of athleticism on a country's international team" debate here please? Even as someone who finds it fascinating, it seems a little off-tangent here and rarely ends well...

agreed. :beee:
 
2nd or 3rd best "in the world" is hardly a ringing endorsement when there are less than half a dozen serious teams, and in that half dozen two of them have Rugby as the major sport.

Rugby is not in a position to be able to afford a weak Australia. When I think of Rugby (in my time which is the last 20 yrs) I had seen Australia as the second biggest Rugby team. They were one of the major carriers of the sport. The Bledisloe Cup was the biggest draw in Rugby...box office. The build up, the match ups, the packed stadium, the passion and excitement. All gone. Every sport needs box office. Next week I shall be glued to the tv (as will approx 400 million around the globe) to watch Barcelona vs Real Madrid. The equivalent in Rugby was the Bledisloe Cup until it became what is now...just another test match with a half ar$ed Aussie public and a pale shadow of an Aussie team. It's sad it really is.

Wouldn't the European Championship or Super Rugby Final be Rugby's version of your big soccer match? For the record, the Waratahs v Crusaders Super Rugby Final was an absolute blockbuster and classic.

Anyway, Australia being 2nd or 3rd best in the world is simply a reflection of what you might call the "real strength" of rugby in Australia when you look at in terms of development, professional player numbers and funding. The game's new TV deal will see it overtake soccer here (thanks largely to foreign TV deals though - domestically no one is buying), but the fundamentals of soccer here are better thanks to the A-League (a competition ironically set up by for ARU CEO John O'Neil).

That's the reality though. In Australia Rugby competes with soccer, and neither are even in the same league as the AFL and NRL... so with the sport jostling for 3rd spot in the Australian sporting landscape, should it really be surprising that the national team jostles for lower ranked positions?
 

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