Is scrum really necessary?

[SimonG]

Sanzar, they're trying to come up with obsure reasons why Union is dying a slow death in Australia, rather than address the actual problem of why it is.

They gave their answer in market research polls carried out by ARU authorities. I watched two games today...NZ vs England and Ireland vs South Africa. In both games we heard comments on the lack of line breaks....England coach was asked about it in his post match interview..paraphrase; "apart from Jonny May's run is it a concern there were very few runs through their defence", and in the Ireland game, commentator Mark Robson said in the 77th minute that Ireland won't be bothered its been a game of few line breaks.

Line breaks are an endangered species. The first game the crowd was silent for long spells. The one thing that gets people excited is runs that breach the defence...what made Lomu Rugby's first superstar. We got that with Jonny May's try but that was pretty much it. The second game in Dublin the atmosphere sounded better (though that's cause we were winning not how we were winning)....I cant recall us breaking the South African defence...the best moment of the match we had to kick over it for Tommy to collect the bouncing ball and score.

The emphasis now appears to be bulking up in the gym and stifling opponents. Aussies can see what is happening, it's a pity others can't (or don't want to).

 

[William18]

Lomu was not the first player to make line breaks.

 

[SimonG]

...and Pele was not the first player to score goals.

What Lomu did was make line breaks more spectacular than any individual before or since, and in an era when they were common in the game. Two of my favourite Irish moments pre O'Drsicoll....Gordon Hamiltons try against Aus in 91, Simon Gheoghan at Twickenham in '94 ish.

Line breaks are the ultimate form of entertainment in Rugby. The greatest Rugby moment ever is? That try. France up until the last decade did it in such a slick manner that made them a joy to watch. Post O'Driscoll I worry for us...it's his retirement that has perhaps triggered my issues with the game.

I watched both games yesterday..with no prior prejudices or any negativity. My reaction as the game went on mirrored the near silence at Twickenham (bar that fantastic run by Jonny May).

 

[Jaguares]

Sanzar, they're trying to come up with obsure reasons why Union is dying a slow death in Australia, rather than address the actual problem of why it is.

They gave their answer in market research polls carried out by ARU authorities. I watched two games today...NZ vs England and Ireland vs South Africa. In both games we heard comments on the lack of line breaks....England coach was asked about it in his post match interview..paraphrase; "apart from Jonny May's run is it a concern there were very few runs through their defence", and in the Ireland game, commentator Mark Robson said in the 77th minute that Ireland won't be bothered its been a game of few line breaks.

Line breaks are an endangered species. The first game the crowd was silent for long spells. The one thing that gets people excited is runs that breach the defence...what made Lomu Rugby's first superstar. We got that with Jonny May's try but that was pretty much it. The second game in Dublin the atmosphere sounded better (though that's cause we were winning not how we were winning)....I cant recall us breaking the South African defence...the best moment of the match we had to kick over it for Tommy to collect the bouncing ball and score.

The emphasis now appears to be bulking up in the gym and stifling opponents. Aussies can see what is happening, it's a pity others can't (or don't want to).

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh Rugby is dying... :cryy::cryy::cryy:

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/oct/23/rugby-world-cup-2015-tickets-england-v-australia

650,000 applications for England v Australia pool match

:yahoo::yahoo::yahoo::yahoo::yahoo::yahoo::yahoo::yahoo::yahoo::yahoo::yahoo::yahoo::yahoo::yahoo:

500,000 applications received for Rugby World Cup final

:sex011::sex011::sex011::sex011::sex011::sex011::sex011::sex011::sex011::sex011::sex011::sex011::sex011::sex011::sex011::sex011::sex011::sex011:

 

[RoosTah]

Conrad, you need to take heed of the old axiom that "less is more"... in this case with regard to emoticons.

 

[Draggs]

Why do we even have that Banana one?

 

[Jaguares]

Conrad, you need to take heed of the old axiom that "less is more"... in this case with regard to emoticons.

I like minimalist art but I prefer exaggerate with emoticons

 

[SimonG]

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh Rugby is dying... :cryy::cryy::cryy:

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/oct/23/rugby-world-cup-2015-tickets-england-v-australia

In Australia Argie....in Australia

http://tvnz.co.nz/rugby-news/rugby-losing-shine-in-australia-3068434

Rugby is dying on its arse in Australia for the reasons the Aussies give. I'm coming up with solutions (due to increased bulk have less players/widen field)...give some incentive to be more attacking and have less emphasis on low risk forward dominated play.

Oddly enough in the Scotland vs Argie game (two teams not known for being good in attack) there were plenty of line breaks. The standard may have been lower than Eng-NZ and Ire-SA but the excitement was higher.

 

[Kempistry]

Agreed. Some sort of experimentation is needed. I think the proposed answer was to give the offence the benefit of the doubt at rucks to speed up play, but that's mostly just resulted in less defensive players rucking and a more spread out defence. It's a tough nut to crack. Maybe reduce the number of players, make the field bigger, a weight limit on players? I don't think any of those will individually work, it needs to be a combination of multiple changes.

Some outside the box thoughts:
Make the defense have 9 bound to scrum rather than 8
Give the offence the option of a 5 minute bin To the offending player but only if they take a tap rather than line or scrum
Try's count for more (8 or 9)
Expand the 22 out for the purpose of calling a mark (to half?)
Make all set line outs have 8-9 people in them

Just some out there ideas.

 

[SimonG]

Some good suggestions there. Increasing the try value to 8 or 9 wouldn't affect things much as you would still have forwards stuffing it up the jumper to get the try.

The size issue for me is the biggest. The XV men game was created when the players were of slimmer build...they have bulked up to such a degree the field is overcrowded. The gaps just ain't there. Wales (pre Gatland) and Australia tend to go for skills over size and opt for a more running based game...hence games between the two are almost always open and free flowing with plenty of finesse. Their problem is they get overpowered when they face the brutes. It's like Martina Hingis vs Venus Williams...sublime technique being defeated by all out brutish power. Pity.

Arguably the four best teams in Rugby NZ-Eng, Ire-SA (I include us in there as we are the 6 nations champs, just beat SA, should have beat NZ in our last meeting)...and in the two games there was barely a line break. The Jonny May try stands out like a sore thumb such was the paucity in the two brutish encounters.

 

[Thingimubob]

Love the convenient non mention of Wales vs Australia
Then again, of course not like Simon would ever say anything to praise rugby

 

[McTallshort]

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh Rugby is dying... :cryy::cryy::cryy:

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/oct/23/rugby-world-cup-2015-tickets-england-v-australia

650,000 applications for England v Australia pool match

:yahoo::yahoo::yahoo::yahoo::yahoo::yahoo::yahoo::yahoo::yahoo::yahoo::yahoo::yahoo::yahoo::yahoo:

500,000 applications received for Rugby World Cup final

:sex011::sex011::sex011::sex011::sex011::sex011::sex011::sex011::sex011::sex011::sex011::sex011::sex011::sex011::sex011::sex011::sex011::sex011:

Dont mock too hard Conrad this is a guy who claimed Rugby Union was "virtually non existent" north of the M25 so hes obviously a bit dim

 

[TRF_Olyy]

The size issue for me is the biggest. The XV men game was created when the players were of slimmer build...they have bulked up to such a degree the field is overcrowded.

This is just the most ridiculous argument I've ever seen.

 

[Thingimubob]

This is just the most ridiculous argument I've ever seen.

He's like an anti- Big Ewis...

 

[SimonG]

Love the convenient non mention of Wales vs Australia

Should have gone to specsavers.

This is just the most ridiculous argument I've ever seen.

What that players today are bulked up to the heavens and the game is more brutish? I see that as a major issue. Theres far less space, gaps are at a premium. The stifling tactics and low risk forward emphasis is obviously another.

Just been watching Sky Sports News and heard a South African (of all people) state the game in the NH is different to what they are used to because it's more "forward orientated". Alarm bells should be ringing at such a comment....it doesn't get discussed on here though. Nothing to see here folks...move along.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

That you think players having a few extra kilos makes any significant impact on the amount of room on the pitch.

 

[William18]

In Australia Argie....in Australia

http://tvnz.co.nz/rugby-news/rugby-losing-shine-in-australia-3068434

Rugby is dying on its arse in Australia for the reasons the Aussies give. I'm coming up with solutions (due to increased bulk have less players/widen field)...give some incentive to be more attacking and have less emphasis on low risk forward dominated play.

Oddly enough in the Scotland vs Argie game (two teams not known for being good in attack) there were plenty of line breaks. The standard may have been lower than Eng-NZ and Ire-SA but the excitement was higher.

I don't know why you think Australia is the centre of the world? Australia is one of the so called Big 5 rugby nations so of course we don't want rugby there to die. Rugby is growing just about everywhere in the world and declining in one country. I call that progress. Besides rugby used to be way more boring and the sport still existed.

 

[SimonG]

That you think players having a few extra kilos makes any significant impact on the amount of room on the pitch.

Far too simplistic. It's common sense that if you are running at a smaller guy or a bigger guy, physique wise, the chances of evading the smaller guy are bigger.

You put fifteen bigger men across a field, there are less gaps, the field is that bit more congested. I've read newspaper comments only last week on Lomu being able to go past guys as they were smaller then. The added bulk has had a massive impact on the game and all of it negative.

 

[Thingimubob]

Should have gone to specsavers.

Sorry so used to your posts being utter drivel that I missed that one.

Ironically its a load of ********... Last I checked Wales have been among the "brutes" for at least 6 years now. Getting overpowered hasn't been a problem for us in quite a few years.

 

[dasNdanger]

I have a question (serious one, though to some it may sound like a sarcastic one, but it's not):

Does the team NOT feeding the ball into the scrum ever stand a chance of actually winning the ball? Feed-ins never appear straight, and I can't remember the last time I actually saw the other team steal the ball. I'd love to know the percentage of scrums actually won by the defending team.


das