Italians may join Magners League

[shazbooger]

In thoery its not a bad idea, but they would need to add an additioanl two teams at least to an already congested fixture list. One super Italian team would proably do more harm than good to Italian rugby. Why not enter the French league and play their way up through the divisions?

Would like to see it, I think its a good idea, but I dont see the rugby authorities doing it correctrly. They never fecking do.

 

[Col]

My problem with this would be... Italians aern't Celtic. I'd have no problem with the relegation of the lowest ranking Italian club and the promotion of their National Championship.... No Itialian team could challenge Munster, Leinster, Ospreys or Blues so they'd be battling each other for league points.

No problem with the removal of the EDF Energy Cup either, it's a lost cause, teams play their reserves until they reach the Semi's anyway. It would also allow for a 14 team Premiership, which would make more sense, Leeds are a premiership team in everything but status currently. Why not get another team in their, give them a challenge to try and stay up the economic benefits of being in the top flight for a year at least. The Yo-Yo-ing of Leeds, Quins, Saints in recent years has made a mockery of Division 1.

 

[Cymro]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Col @ Dec 12 2008, 12:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

My problem with this would be... Italians aern't Celtic. I'd have no problem with the relegation of the lowest ranking Italian club and the promotion of their National Championship.... No Itialian team could challenge Munster, Leinster, Ospreys or Blues so they'd be battling each other for league points.

No problem with the removal of the EDF Energy Cup either, it's a lost cause, teams play their reserves until they reach the Semi's anyway. It would also allow for a 14 team Premiership, which would make more sense, Leeds are a premiership team in everything but status currently. Why not get another team in their, give them a challenge to try and stay up the economic benefits of being in the top flight for a year at least. The Yo-Yo-ing of Leeds, Quins, Saints in recent years has made a mockery of Division 1.[/b]

I like the idea of removing the EDF Cup and increasing the Guniess Premiership!

But for me the Italians would benefit from playing in France! Its also closer to home for the fans!

 

[Col]

*shrugs* I dont know enough about the 14, so I cant really comment.

 

[shazbooger]

Doesnt have to be straight into the 14. make em play up through a few divisions.

 

[danit]

it's official now, FIR press release: http://www.federugby.it/news.asp?i=66296&s=2

the essential: Italian Rugby Union unanimously deliberated to join the competition actually called Magners Celtic League

two new franchises will be created (one based in Rome, the other somewhere in the north), selecting the best italian players actually under contract with Super 10 clubs and, if possible, players actually playing abroad, each franchise will be allowed 5 non italian players (not more) in the squad

if the Celtic League will accept, two more private clubs (Treviso and ?), who declared they will at least double their budget, could join the league

later more details (if available) and some commentary from an italian point of view

 

[shazbooger]

Danit

What are the people saying in Italy? Do the fans think this is a good idea? The press? Does anyone care?

I think most fans of Magners teams would be delighted with it.

 

[porcorosso]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Logorrhea @ Dec 19 2008, 08:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Danit

What are the people saying in Italy? Do the fans think this is a good idea? The press? Does anyone care?

I think most fans of Magners teams would be delighted with it.[/b]

So, first it is not clear either if 2 federal selections or 4 existing clubs with relegation/promotion with the Super 10 national league will join CL.
For the movement the second option will be better for sure, it means that also a small club can keep an open window to the CLeague, so they could keep improving their game and organization.
The press in Italy is taking more care than ever about rugby, usually relegated on small essais for the 6nations or the finals of the national league. As it works in this way, unfortunately, in Italy half of the press agreed with this option if they are involved with teams that agreed too - for example Rome has two teams insede the Super 10, they are currently #8 and #10, so they have all the convenience to push for a federal selection (based in this case surely in Rome) to be involved in. So journalists near to the two roman teams wrote pieces pro CLeague - else Viadana that will have to reboot from the ground its team ( poor juniores teams and 13 foreigners on 15: Italian Board declared a maximum of 5 non-eligible per squad for the CLeague) seems to be non favourable at the first steps, so the press near Veneto's teams (4 of the 10s of the main league are from this area and historically this is the root region for Italian rugby) in a first moment wrote against the federal selections assumed when these were just rumors.
On the next days we will se what will be the response of the movement and after the CLeague headmasters reply to Italian Board's proposal we could have a real view of it.
Personally I think that to improve the Italian Rugby it will help a lot but if it will be not convoyed with the developement of the ground (basically now juniores and smaller league players are selected more for their fisically equipment than for technical skills), coaches and referees we will soon pull out of the top tier teams.
Another solution advanced by a portion of fans is to resume 3 old selection: DOGI based on the 4 Veneto's teams, LUPI based on Rome's movement, ZEBRE Lombardia's (second region with more rugby background - Calvisano and Viadana are located there) team and DUCALI a new one based in Parma, in Emilia, that has two teams in Super 10 and two more in Serie A (a step lower).

Now from a fan point of view I've to say that this is an exciting moment of passage for Italian rugby: if it will be able to perform a good 6nations and, if involved, a good CLeague with free to air TV coverage and a good marketing team, Rugby can really gain a relevant place on the prerence of Italian soccer-sucker sport fans, else it will be just another momentary fashion drink.

Hope to heard your impression too (and to have more chances to share my opinion with yours in the future).
See ya PR

 

[danit]

according to the today's edition of sports newspaper "Corriere dello Sport", Magners Celtic League officially accepted 2 italian teams in the league, starting immediately from the 2009-2010 season

the two sides will have to:
1. be officially introduced into next 20 days (or the agreement will be delayed to the next season)
2. have a maximum of 5 non-italian elegible players in the squad
3. have a stable stadium and a stable base, easy to reach by plane
4. have an expenditure budget of at least 8 millions euros

so, according to the guidelines set by FIR (Italian Rugby Union) on jan 12th:
1. the 2 teams will be franchises or "superclubs", jointly operated by FIR & private partners who will have to find important sponsor (at least 700.000 euros per season)
2. if no private partner will be able to respond or any will be available, the FIR would operate the franchise by itself
3. the two franchises will also play the next Heineken Cup, while the top "first division" clubs will be allowed into the Challenge Cup
4. stadiums will have at least 5.000 seats

(seems very similar to the actual welsh regional structure, I guess)

rumors:
- both teams will be jointly operated by FIR and private partners
- one team will be based in Rome, will be owned by FIR and the two actual Super 10 teams by Rome, will be based at Stadio Flaminio
- one team will be based in north-east, will be jointly operated by FIR and the 3 top teams of italian league (Treviso, Viadana and Calvisano), will be probably based in Treviso
- the new franchises will be able to contract players from any Super 10 team and will work to get some of the "legion etrangére" players to came back to Italy
- Sky Italy will be the tv broadcasting partner

to be honest, I'm sure everything had already been decided and settled down some monthes ago, these next 20 days will be used just to set up a proper inauguration to the new era also using the high media coverage of the beginning of the 6 Nations Tournament

 

[Canadian_Rugger]

I think its a profoundly stupid idea that italy are pursuing. How are you supposed to build a national fanbase with two rugby teams???

Will the Super 10 remain a professional competition in spite of this? The whole thing seems so ridiculous. It makes little to no sense from a logistical standpoint and I think its a terrible way to grow the game. The club competition is obviously going to suffer. But what do I know I am sure the rugby authorities have it all figured out anyways... especially if money is involved... then again we only need to look at Scotland to understand just how easily they can f*** things up.

 

[danit]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Canadian_Rugger @ Jan 20 2009, 02:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

I think its a profoundly stupid idea that italy are pursuing. How are you supposed to build a national fanbase with two rugby teams???

Will the Super 10 remain a professional competition in spite of this?[/b]

well CR, Super10 is not really a professional competition, actually...

how can you think that a base movment with just 60.000+ registered players can build up a 10 teams professional competition? where are so many high level players? where is the nedeed money? Super10 had a poor tv contract with the pay tv Sky Italia 'until last year, just 400.000 euros to divide among 10 teams, but they also lost it because there's no real interest, the fanbase is is really really small when you talk about club rugby in Italy

just 500 or 1000 people attendance, poor tv audience and just a little interst also in international club competition as you cannot expect fans are content with those continuous 50 - 60 points losses in HCup

but there's a huge potential, this is a 60 millions population country like Eng or Fr and fans involvment when the Azzuri play is really high, particulary for 6N, tv audience are pretty good and stadiums are crowded

so Italy just needs an intermediate level between the national Team anche Super10 clubs

Supe10 and the traditional clubs Padova, Rovigo, Treviso, Rome, L'Aquila, etc. will not disappear, they will be the base for the new franchises, every player will know that, if good enough, could be selected for the franchise and play HCup and CL: the same is happening in most of rugby countries (except England and France where club rugby is dominant)

I think it's a good project, dunno if it'll work but it's something that had to be done

 

[Prestwick]

I don't think its a stupid idea at all, Italian Rugby needs a boost and regular competition against top quality opposition.

The Super 10 doesn't offer this, Italian Rugby and specifically Italian Club rugby doesn't have the room to expand within such confines I would think.

By colaborating to enter two to four teams to the Magners League, you expand the competition, you make it viable, you make people take the damn thing seriously.

By bringing in the Italian teams, you aid the existing sides and therefore their national sides by exposing them to regular rugby against Italian teams. To be honest, any help that Scotland and Wales can get to prepare for that nerve wracking away fixture at the Stadio Flaminio (other than, oh let me think, telling Gareth Thomas to shut the **** up when you're trying to kick to touch before time runs out) would be a boon and make the entire enterprise worthwhile.

Bottom line, introducing play offs and the Italian teams will make the Mangers League a brilliant league and will help all involved.

EDIT: I love the idea of having a top line newspaper dedicated to just sport. viva il Corriere dello Sport!

 

[Cymro]

The whole entire point of the Magners League is that its a competition between the Celtic Nations!

For me the best way for the Italians to develop is to play in the Top 14! Simple!

 

[Canadian_Rugger]

Well with the way the Euro leagues are now then why not just stuff the Heineken Cup and Amalgamate into a 30 team Euro Super League... Hell we already have one League with 3.... soon to be 4.... nations professional franchises in it why not add in the other two and have a 30 team European Super League.

France is already dominated by the same few clubs every year so why not just ring fence the entire thing completely. The only league which really offers any variety is the Guinness Premiership...

Div 1
Leinster
Munster
Ulster
Edinburgh
Glasgow

Div 2
Cardiff
Llanelli
Neath-Swansea
Bath
Bristol

Div 3
Newcastle
Sale
Gloucester
Leicester
Worcester

Div 4
Northampton
London Wasps
London Irish
Saracens
Harlequins

Div 5
Stade Francais
Bourgoin
Brive
Clermont
Biarritz

Div 6
Perpignan
Toulouse
Toulon
Rome
Treviso

I would even get rid of a few of the english teams and look at adding more French teams.. aka get rid of Newcastle and Bristol

The benefits would be quite obvious
*competition would have a bigger name
*more sponsors/more people exposed
*I would eliminate the league ring fencing and allow the clubs to sign anyone they wanted
*It would eliminate all the scheduling conflicts which currently occur with regards to internationals as all nations would now be on the same page
*Roughly 200 million people would be exposed to the game... a single league which would operate on an American sports model of divisions based on geographics
*Ontop of that nobody would ever have to goto Leeds :-D
*There would be no relegation or promotion it wuld be ring fenced and the teams would become super franchises or clubs


This of course will never happen though but it would be an interesting league

 

[Prestwick]

That is the same flawed argument that goes into trying to shoehorn Argentina into the Six Nations.

The simple fact is that there are already 14 teams in the French League. There simply isn't the room nor the structure to accomodate two more Italian teams. For example, how would the Italian teams handle being in the Top 14 one season and then relegated to the Pro D2 the next?

At the end of the day, it is the Magners League that has spare capacity with the disbanding of the Borders team. It needs a shot in the arm and it needs more teams. Italy can deliver these teams.

And lets be honest, Cymro. Once you go on a happy jaunt to Italy for a Cardiff Blues away game, trust me, you won't be complaining about Italy being included then!

Anyone who has visited Italy with their teams in the HEC or ECC will know that this is no brainer. The fanbase may be small but they are insanely passionate and just as freindly and welcoming. The two Italian regions will be a brilliant addition to the Magners League and, for the first time, I'm actually quite jealous for I would take an Italian franchise in the Guiness Premiership over Newcastle any day.

 

[Canadian_Rugger]

the problem with rugby is unlike other sports its marquee product is the international game... the international game is important in sports such as ice Hockey and Football but the clubs are what really make the money. The southern hemisphere has it right in terms of there development structure for developing international players... a single unified season allows there players to adequately prepare for internationals

Imagine no ring fencing of players... players from all countries would be able to to be traded between the teams of the league. I think the fanbase for rugby would increase exponentially with a league like this. Heineken cup rugby is a big deal ... imagine every match being a Heineken cup style match... Cardiff vs Stade Francais.... London Wasps vs Toulouse

 

[danit]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cymro @ Jan 20 2009, 03:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

The whole entire point of the Magners League is that its a competition between the Celtic Nations![/b]

www.joellessacredgrove.com/Celtic/history.html: "many Celtic tribes migrated from one region of Europe to another. From their homeland in central Europe, the Celts spread westward into modern France and the British Isles, southwest into Iberia, southward into northern Italy ... Ancient tribes now thought to be Celtic include ... the Boii in modern Italy"

http://pastpresenters.com/the-non-celtic-o...e-celtic-knot/: "The broken and reconnected knotwork we consider Celtic today originated in northern Italy and southern France in the 6^th century. While these areas were once Celtic"

 

[Cymro]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Prestwick @ Jan 20 2009, 02:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

That is the same flawed argument that goes into trying to shoehorn Argentina into the Six Nations.

The simple fact is that there are already 14 teams in the French League. There simply isn't the room nor the structure to accomodate two more Italian teams. For example, how would the Italian teams handle being in the Top 14 one season and then relegated to the Pro D2 the next?

At the end of the day, it is the Magners League that has spare capacity with the disbanding of the Borders team. It needs a shot in the arm and it needs more teams. Italy can deliver these teams.

And lets be honest, Cymro. Once you go on a happy jaunt to Italy for a Cardiff Blues away game, trust me, you won't be complaining about Italy being included then!

Anyone who has visited Italy with their teams in the HEC or ECC will know that this is no brainer. The fanbase may be small but they are insanely passionate and just as freindly and welcoming. The two Italian regions will be a brilliant addition to the Magners League and, for the first time, I'm actually quite jealous for I would take an Italian franchise in the Guiness Premiership over Newcastle any day.[/b]

They would not go into the Top 14 straight aay, they could be put into the second division and work their way up!

And to be honest there are enough games in the Magners League also!

 

[Prestwick]

I don't think the Italians would accept that. That would be like telling the Argentines to go play Germany, Russia and Georgia for a few years and then we may have enough room for you...

No, the Magners League is the ideal choice. Trust me, when you go down to Italy to follow Cardiff and you see how awesome the rugby and the fans and the general Italian lifestyle is, you'll be won over.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Canadian_Rugger @ Jan 20 2009, 02:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Well with the way the Euro leagues are now then why not just stuff the Heineken Cup and Amalgamate into a 30 team Euro Super League... Hell we already have one League with 3.... soon to be 4.... nations professional franchises in it why not add in the other two and have a 30 team European Super League.

France is already dominated by the same few clubs every year so why not just ring fence the entire thing completely. The only league which really offers any variety is the Guinness Premiership...

Div 1
Leinster
Munster
Ulster
Edinburgh
Glasgow

Div 2
Cardiff
Llanelli
Neath-Swansea
Bath
Bristol

Div 3
Newcastle
Sale
Gloucester
Leicester
Worcester

Div 4
Northampton
London Wasps
London Irish
Saracens
Harlequins

Div 5
Stade Francais
Bourgoin
Brive
Clermont
Biarritz

Div 6
Perpignan
Toulouse
Toulon
Rome
Treviso

I would even get rid of a few of the english teams and look at adding more French teams.. aka get rid of Newcastle and Bristol

The benefits would be quite obvious
*competition would have a bigger name
*more sponsors/more people exposed
*I would eliminate the league ring fencing and allow the clubs to sign anyone they wanted
*It would eliminate all the scheduling conflicts which currently occur with regards to internationals as all nations would now be on the same page
*Roughly 200 million people would be exposed to the game... a single league which would operate on an American sports model of divisions based on geographics
*Ontop of that nobody would ever have to goto Leeds :-D
*There would be no relegation or promotion it wuld be ring fenced and the teams would become super franchises or clubs


This of course will never happen though but it would be an interesting league [/b]

Love the idea and it's something I see happening in the future.

I think the only way it's a runner is if more than 30 teams are included though. None of the old 5 Nations countries or representative bodies of the clubs would agree to it if they lost clubs/districts/provinces. I believe such a league would be possible if the entire current Magners League, Guinness Premiership and Top 14 teams (numbering 36 in total) were added. Add 2 Italian sides initially plus strategically placed new teams (in cities like Madrid, Marseille, another team in Paris, Barcelona for example) and bring the number up to 42 sides. After a couple of years, underperforming teams will become self evident and can be primed for relocation into new territories - Connacht would fall into this category, as would a few of the lesser French teams. Split the teams into 6 groups of 7 teams which preserve current rivalries (and develop new rivalries such as the Irish provinces and London Irish, the Basque teams of Biarritz and Bayonne battling with Spanish representative Madrid, the Catalans of Perpignan and Barcelona etc). Here's a quick outline:

Group 1:
Munster
Leinster
Ulster
Connacht
Glasgow
Edinburgh
London Irish

Group 2:
Ospreys
Scarlets
Dragons
Cardiff Blues
Bath
Bristol
Gloucester

etc

Split it like the NFL so you play each team in your group on a home and away basis plus another, say, 10 or 12 games against teams in other groups on a home or away basis. Perhaps add a full round in a new market like Germany (huge potential TV market plus good crowds in Hanover for the 7s tournament played there), Portugal (help increase interest in the game on the back of their appearance in RWC07), Romania (as a former power which was neglected by the then iRFB). Dubai, Hong Kong or Singapore (purely for the money). 23 to 25 regular season games in a high octane tournament would provide massive revenue in terms of both gate receipts and TV contracts.

I'd run with a 16 team playoff system of the 6 group winners plus the 10 teams with the best records who didn't win their groups. Basically what I advocate is a trumped up Heineken Cup which can catch the imagination more so than the system currently in place and allows for a swift expansion of the sport into continental Europe (outside of France and Italy). It's something David Moffett spoke about and Mark Evans recently hypothesized about too