Italy vs Ireland - 16/03/2013

[Ainsthrilln]

How many noteworthy forwards younger than 24 played the 6 Nations?

Minto (25) and Furno (23) played more than Pavanello and almost as much as Geldenhuys, but I assume they aren´t noteworthy.

And if you look in Rabodirect, you´ll find some interesting prospect under 24.

I agree with you about the problem of the Parisse retirement, in 4 or 5 years? Maybe Castrogiovanni aswell. The other positions are better filled.

But the age is not so so important. Three years ago Barbieri wasn´t even a bench player for Italy, two years ago was starter in just two matches. This year he´s played really well when he wasn´t injuried. Of course everyone loves the classy player who plays from 20 to 35 in the NT, but if you don´t have them, it doesn´t mean you can get a good team made of players in their maturity years.

About the backs, I think Italy don´t want to have better players than the big 4, they want to beat the big 4, which isn´t the same .

 

[psychic duck]

How many noteworthy forwards younger than 24 played the 6 Nations?

Minto (25) and Furno (23) played more than Pavanello and almost as much as Geldenhuys, but I assume they aren´t noteworthy.

And if you look in Rabodirect, you´ll find some interesting prospect under 24.

I agree with you about the problem of the Parisse retirement, in 4 or 5 years? Maybe Castrogiovanni aswell. The other positions are better filled.

Minto and Furno are decent players. But Minto is just a bench player at the moment, whilst Furno plays for a mid table club in Pro D2, neither would really trouble the selectors of other 6 Nations teams. Nothing wrong with that, and as you say they could improve, but neither can carry the pack like Parisse, Castrogiovanni, Bergamasco, Bortolami, Zanni have done for 10 years.

If you were to select an Italian pack of players under 25 or 26 years. Then it would not look good. Contrast that to 10 years ago, when Italy had Perugini, Ongaro, Castrogiovanni, Dellape, Bortolami, Bergamasco, Parisse all 25 or under. Ghiraldini and Zanni emerged a year or so after.

That generation of players was there a long while now, and most of the players added who have arrived since 2007 spent most of their careers behind those names and now are not going to be around for much more than 5 years either. Such as Cittadini for example.

Whilst what younger players are coming through the ranks? What interesting prospects are there in the Pro12? Because I haven't seen any real outstanding new young forward from the Italian teams Treviso or Zebre (the latter of whom's pack has taken a pasting regularly this season, as well as the former when they are away from first choice). And looking at the results from the junior teams it would suggest that they haven't had the finest players in those teams either of late.

 

[Ainsthrilln]

I wrote a long answer... and then Chrome crashed. So I´ll summarize it.

Look at the result and the lineouts in the 2003 6 Nations. Mauro Bergamasco is a wing, but not a forward wing, but a back. Bortolami played as starter, it´s true, but from the others, Castro, Ongaro and Dellape played some matches from the bench. Perugini played just one match, from the bench, and was almost 25 already (lees than a month to his birthday). That´s all. The only one outstandingly young was Castrogiovanni, 21 then, and was a reserve. Parisse started a year after, being 20, but he´s real class- Zanni was in the team until 2006 (three form the bench, and then 3 starters and two from the bench in 2007), and Ghiraldini played his first 6 Nations in 2008, being 23, but it´s true he played as started all the matches.

If you compare, Favaro started at the same age as Zanni, and in the bench aswell, before being a starter. Players need time to reach maturity. Of course this generation of italians players is/was great, and I learnt to love rugby watching them, but look at the results:

2003:

[TABLE="class: list, width: 725"]
<tbody>[TR="class: odd home group_tests_sixnations rollover"]
[TD="class: field_DateAbbrev, bgcolor: #CDCDCD"]Sat 15th Feb 03[/TD]
[TD="class: field_TimeLong, bgcolor: #CDCDCD"]13:30[/TD]
[TD="class: field_HomeDisplay, bgcolor: #CDCDCD, align: right"]Italy[/TD]
[TD="class: field_Score, bgcolor: #CDCDCD, align: center"]30 - 22[/TD]
[TD="class: field_AwayDisplay, bgcolor: #CDCDCD"]Wales[/TD]
[TD="class: field_VenName, bgcolor: #CDCDCD"]Stadio Flaminio[/TD]
[TD="class: field_Links, bgcolor: #CDCDCD"]More[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: even home group_tests_sixnations"]
[TD="class: field_DateAbbrev, bgcolor: #E2E2E2"]Sat 22nd Feb 03[/TD]
[TD="class: field_TimeLong, bgcolor: #E2E2E2"]14:30[/TD]
[TD="class: field_HomeDisplay, bgcolor: #E2E2E2, align: right"]Italy[/TD]
[TD="class: field_Score, bgcolor: #E2E2E2, align: center"]13 - 37[/TD]
[TD="class: field_AwayDisplay, bgcolor: #E2E2E2"]Ireland[/TD]
[TD="class: field_VenName, bgcolor: #E2E2E2"]Stadio Flaminio[/TD]
[TD="class: field_Links, bgcolor: #E2E2E2"]More[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: odd away group_tests_sixnations"]
[TD="class: field_DateAbbrev"]Sun 9th Mar 03[/TD]
[TD="class: field_TimeLong"]14:00[/TD]
[TD="class: field_HomeDisplay, align: right"]England[/TD]
[TD="class: field_Score, align: center"]40 - 5[/TD]
[TD="class: field_AwayDisplay"]Italy[/TD]
[TD="class: field_VenName"]Twickenham[/TD]
[TD="class: field_Links"]More[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: even home group_tests_sixnations"]
[TD="class: field_DateAbbrev, bgcolor: #E2E2E2"]Sun 23rd Mar 03[/TD]
[TD="class: field_TimeLong, bgcolor: #E2E2E2"]14:00[/TD]
[TD="class: field_HomeDisplay, bgcolor: #E2E2E2, align: right"]Italy[/TD]
[TD="class: field_Score, bgcolor: #E2E2E2, align: center"]27 - 53[/TD]
[TD="class: field_AwayDisplay, bgcolor: #E2E2E2"]France[/TD]
[TD="class: field_VenName, bgcolor: #E2E2E2"]Stadio Flaminio[/TD]
[TD="class: field_Links, bgcolor: #E2E2E2"]More[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: odd away group_tests_sixnations"]
[TD="class: field_DateAbbrev"]Sat 29th Mar 03[/TD]
[TD="class: field_TimeLong"]15:00[/TD]
[TD="class: field_HomeDisplay, align: right"]Scotland[/TD]
[TD="class: field_Score, align: center"]33 - 25[/TD]
[TD="class: field_AwayDisplay"]Italy[/TD]
[TD="class: field_VenName"]Murrayfield[/TD]
[TD="class: field_Links"]More[/TD]
[/TR]
</tbody>[/TABLE]

2004:

[TABLE="class: list, width: 725"]
<tbody>[TR="class: odd home group_tests_sixnations"]
[TD="class: field_DateAbbrev"]Sun 15th Feb 04[/TD]
[TD="class: field_TimeLong"]15:00[/TD]
[TD="class: field_HomeDisplay, align: right"]Italy[/TD]
[TD="class: field_Score, align: center"]9 - 50[/TD]
[TD="class: field_AwayDisplay"]England[/TD]
[TD="class: field_VenName"]Stadio Flaminio[/TD]
[TD="class: field_Links"]More[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: even away group_tests_sixnations"]
[TD="class: field_DateAbbrev, bgcolor: #E2E2E2"]Sat 21st Feb 04[/TD]
[TD="class: field_TimeLong, bgcolor: #E2E2E2"]14:00[/TD]
[TD="class: field_HomeDisplay, bgcolor: #E2E2E2, align: right"]France[/TD]
[TD="class: field_Score, bgcolor: #E2E2E2, align: center"]25 - 0[/TD]
[TD="class: field_AwayDisplay, bgcolor: #E2E2E2"]Italy[/TD]
[TD="class: field_VenName, bgcolor: #E2E2E2"]Stade de France[/TD]
[TD="class: field_Links, bgcolor: #E2E2E2"]More[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: odd home group_tests_sixnations"]
[TD="class: field_DateAbbrev"]Sat 6th Mar 04[/TD]
[TD="class: field_TimeLong"]13:30[/TD]
[TD="class: field_HomeDisplay, align: right"]Italy[/TD]
[TD="class: field_Score, align: center"]20 - 14[/TD]
[TD="class: field_AwayDisplay"]Scotland[/TD]
[TD="class: field_VenName"]Stadio Flaminio[/TD]
[TD="class: field_Links"]More[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: even away group_tests_sixnations"]
[TD="class: field_DateAbbrev, bgcolor: #E2E2E2"]Sat 20th Mar 04[/TD]
[TD="class: field_TimeLong, bgcolor: #E2E2E2"]13:30[/TD]
[TD="class: field_HomeDisplay, bgcolor: #E2E2E2, align: right"]Ireland[/TD]
[TD="class: field_Score, bgcolor: #E2E2E2, align: center"]19 - 3[/TD]
[TD="class: field_AwayDisplay, bgcolor: #E2E2E2"]Italy[/TD]
[TD="class: field_VenName, bgcolor: #E2E2E2"]Lansdowne Road[/TD]
[TD="class: field_Links, bgcolor: #E2E2E2"]More[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: odd away group_tests_sixnations rollover"]
[TD="class: field_DateAbbrev, bgcolor: #CDCDCD"]Sat 27th Mar 04[/TD]
[TD="class: field_TimeLong, bgcolor: #CDCDCD"]14:00[/TD]
[TD="class: field_HomeDisplay, bgcolor: #CDCDCD, align: right"]Wales[/TD]
[TD="class: field_Score, bgcolor: #CDCDCD, align: center"]44 - 10[/TD]
[TD="class: field_AwayDisplay, bgcolor: #CDCDCD"]Italy[/TD]
[TD="class: field_VenName, bgcolor: #CDCDCD"]Millennium Stadium[/TD]
[TD="class: field_Links, bgcolor: #CDCDCD"]More[/TD]
[/TR]
</tbody>[/TABLE]

2005:

[TABLE="class: list, width: 725"]
<tbody>[TR="class: odd home group_tests_sixnations rollover"]
[TD="class: field_DateAbbrev, bgcolor: #CDCDCD"]Sun 6th Feb 05[/TD]
[TD="class: field_TimeLong, bgcolor: #CDCDCD"]14:30[/TD]
[TD="class: field_HomeDisplay, bgcolor: #CDCDCD, align: right"]Italy[/TD]
[TD="class: field_Score, bgcolor: #CDCDCD, align: center"]17 - 28[/TD]
[TD="class: field_AwayDisplay, bgcolor: #CDCDCD"]Ireland[/TD]
[TD="class: field_VenName, bgcolor: #CDCDCD"]Stadio Flaminio[/TD]
[TD="class: field_Links, bgcolor: #CDCDCD"]More[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: even home group_tests_sixnations"]
[TD="class: field_DateAbbrev, bgcolor: #E2E2E2"]Sat 12th Feb 05[/TD]
[TD="class: field_TimeLong, bgcolor: #E2E2E2"]13:30[/TD]
[TD="class: field_HomeDisplay, bgcolor: #E2E2E2, align: right"]Italy[/TD]
[TD="class: field_Score, bgcolor: #E2E2E2, align: center"]8 - 38[/TD]
[TD="class: field_AwayDisplay, bgcolor: #E2E2E2"]Wales[/TD]
[TD="class: field_VenName, bgcolor: #E2E2E2"]Stadio Flaminio[/TD]
[TD="class: field_Links, bgcolor: #E2E2E2"]More[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: odd away group_tests_sixnations"]
[TD="class: field_DateAbbrev"]Sat 26th Feb 05[/TD]
[TD="class: field_TimeLong"]14:00[/TD]
[TD="class: field_HomeDisplay, align: right"]Scotland[/TD]
[TD="class: field_Score, align: center"]18 - 10[/TD]
[TD="class: field_AwayDisplay"]Italy[/TD]
[TD="class: field_VenName"]Murrayfield[/TD]
[TD="class: field_Links"]More[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: even away group_tests_sixnations"]
[TD="class: field_DateAbbrev, bgcolor: #E2E2E2"]Sat 12th Mar 05[/TD]
[TD="class: field_TimeLong, bgcolor: #E2E2E2"]16:00[/TD]
[TD="class: field_HomeDisplay, bgcolor: #E2E2E2, align: right"]England[/TD]
[TD="class: field_Score, bgcolor: #E2E2E2, align: center"]39 - 7[/TD]
[TD="class: field_AwayDisplay, bgcolor: #E2E2E2"]Italy[/TD]
[TD="class: field_VenName, bgcolor: #E2E2E2"]Twickenham[/TD]
[TD="class: field_Links, bgcolor: #E2E2E2"]More[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: odd home group_tests_sixnations"]
[TD="class: field_DateAbbrev"]Sat 19th Mar 05[/TD]
[TD="class: field_TimeLong"]13:00[/TD]
[TD="class: field_HomeDisplay, align: right"]Italy[/TD]
[TD="class: field_Score, align: center"]13 - 56[/TD]
[TD="class: field_AwayDisplay"]France[/TD]
[TD="class: field_VenName"]Stadio Flaminio[/TD]
[TD="class: field_Links"]More
[/TD]
[/TR]
</tbody>[/TABLE]

2006:

[TABLE="class: list, width: 725"]
<tbody>[TR="class: odd away group_tests_sixnations rollover"]
[TD="class: field_DateAbbrev, bgcolor: #CDCDCD"]Sat 4th Feb 06[/TD]
[TD="class: field_TimeLong, bgcolor: #CDCDCD"]13:30[/TD]
[TD="class: field_HomeDisplay, bgcolor: #CDCDCD, align: right"]Ireland[/TD]
[TD="class: field_Score, bgcolor: #CDCDCD, align: center"]26 - 16[/TD]
[TD="class: field_AwayDisplay, bgcolor: #CDCDCD"]Italy[/TD]
[TD="class: field_VenName, bgcolor: #CDCDCD"]Lansdowne Road[/TD]
[TD="class: field_Links, bgcolor: #CDCDCD"]Report[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: even home group_tests_sixnations"]
[TD="class: field_DateAbbrev, bgcolor: #E2E2E2"]Sat 11th Feb 06[/TD]
[TD="class: field_TimeLong, bgcolor: #E2E2E2"]16:00[/TD]
[TD="class: field_HomeDisplay, bgcolor: #E2E2E2, align: right"]Italy[/TD]
[TD="class: field_Score, bgcolor: #E2E2E2, align: center"]16 - 31[/TD]
[TD="class: field_AwayDisplay, bgcolor: #E2E2E2"]England[/TD]
[TD="class: field_VenName, bgcolor: #E2E2E2"]Stadio Flaminio[/TD]
[TD="class: field_Links, bgcolor: #E2E2E2"]Report[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: odd away group_tests_sixnations"]
[TD="class: field_DateAbbrev"]Sat 25th Feb 06[/TD]
[TD="class: field_TimeLong"]14:00[/TD]
[TD="class: field_HomeDisplay, align: right"]France[/TD]
[TD="class: field_Score, align: center"]37 - 12[/TD]
[TD="class: field_AwayDisplay"]Italy[/TD]
[TD="class: field_VenName"]Stade de France[/TD]
[TD="class: field_Links"]Report[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: even away group_tests_sixnations"]
[TD="class: field_DateAbbrev, bgcolor: #E2E2E2"]Sat 11th Mar 06[/TD]
[TD="class: field_TimeLong, bgcolor: #E2E2E2"]13:30[/TD]
[TD="class: field_HomeDisplay, bgcolor: #E2E2E2, align: right"]Wales[/TD]
[TD="class: field_Score, bgcolor: #E2E2E2, align: center"]18 - 18[/TD]
[TD="class: field_AwayDisplay, bgcolor: #E2E2E2"]Italy[/TD]
[TD="class: field_VenName, bgcolor: #E2E2E2"]Millennium Stadium[/TD]
[TD="class: field_Links, bgcolor: #E2E2E2"]Report[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: odd home group_tests_sixnations"]
[TD="class: field_DateAbbrev"]Sat 18th Mar 06[/TD]
[TD="class: field_TimeLong"]13:30[/TD]
[TD="class: field_HomeDisplay, align: right"]Italy[/TD]
[TD="class: field_Score, align: center"]10 - 13[/TD]
[TD="class: field_AwayDisplay"]Scotland[/TD]
[TD="class: field_VenName"]Stadio Flaminio[/TD]
[TD="class: field_Links"]Report
[/TD]
[/TR]
</tbody>[/TABLE]

First good results doesn´t arrive until 2007, when some of them already experienced:

[TABLE="class: list, width: 725"]
<tbody>[TR="class: odd home group_tests_sixnations rollover"]
[TD="class: field_DateAbbrev, bgcolor: #CDCDCD"]Sat 3rd Feb 07[/TD]
[TD="class: field_TimeLong, bgcolor: #CDCDCD"]13:30[/TD]
[TD="class: field_HomeDisplay, bgcolor: #CDCDCD, align: right"]Italy[/TD]
[TD="class: field_Score, bgcolor: #CDCDCD, align: center"]3 - 39[/TD]
[TD="class: field_AwayDisplay, bgcolor: #CDCDCD"]France[/TD]
[TD="class: field_VenName, bgcolor: #CDCDCD"]Stadio Flaminio[/TD]
[TD="class: field_Links, bgcolor: #CDCDCD"]Report | Stats[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: even away group_tests_sixnations"]
[TD="class: field_DateAbbrev, bgcolor: #E2E2E2"]Sat 10th Feb 07[/TD]
[TD="class: field_TimeLong, bgcolor: #E2E2E2"]13:30[/TD]
[TD="class: field_HomeDisplay, bgcolor: #E2E2E2, align: right"]England[/TD]
[TD="class: field_Score, bgcolor: #E2E2E2, align: center"]20 - 7[/TD]
[TD="class: field_AwayDisplay, bgcolor: #E2E2E2"]Italy[/TD]
[TD="class: field_VenName, bgcolor: #E2E2E2"]Twickenham[/TD]
[TD="class: field_Links, bgcolor: #E2E2E2"]Report | Stats[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: odd away group_tests_sixnations"]
[TD="class: field_DateAbbrev"]Sat 24th Feb 07[/TD]
[TD="class: field_TimeLong"]15:00[/TD]
[TD="class: field_HomeDisplay, align: right"]Scotland[/TD]
[TD="class: field_Score, align: center"]17 - 37[/TD]
[TD="class: field_AwayDisplay"]Italy[/TD]
[TD="class: field_VenName"]Murrayfield[/TD]
[TD="class: field_Links"]Report | Stats[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: even home group_tests_sixnations"]
[TD="class: field_DateAbbrev, bgcolor: #E2E2E2"]Sat 10th Mar 07[/TD]
[TD="class: field_TimeLong, bgcolor: #E2E2E2"]15:30[/TD]
[TD="class: field_HomeDisplay, bgcolor: #E2E2E2, align: right"]Italy[/TD]
[TD="class: field_Score, bgcolor: #E2E2E2, align: center"]23 - 20[/TD]
[TD="class: field_AwayDisplay, bgcolor: #E2E2E2"]Wales[/TD]
[TD="class: field_VenName, bgcolor: #E2E2E2"]Stadio Flaminio[/TD]
[TD="class: field_Links, bgcolor: #E2E2E2"]Report | Stats[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: odd home group_tests_sixnations"]
[TD="class: field_DateAbbrev"]Sat 17th Mar 07[/TD]
[TD="class: field_TimeLong"]13:30[/TD]
[TD="class: field_HomeDisplay, align: right"]Italy[/TD]
[TD="class: field_Score, align: center"]24 - 51[/TD]
[TD="class: field_AwayDisplay"]Ireland[/TD]
[TD="class: field_VenName"]Stadio Flaminio[/TD]
[TD="class: field_Links"]Report | Stats[/TD]
[/TR]
</tbody>[/TABLE]

and there were bad years as 2009 and 2010.

And then 2013:

[TABLE="class: list, width: 725"]
<tbody>[TR="class: odd home group_tests_sixnations"]
[TD="class: field_DateAbbrev"]Sun 3rd Feb 13[/TD]
[TD="class: field_TimeLong"]15:00[/TD]
[TD="class: field_HomeDisplay, align: right"]Italy[/TD]
[TD="class: field_Score, align: center"]23 - 18[/TD]
[TD="class: field_AwayDisplay"]France[/TD]
[TD="class: field_VenName"]Stadio Olimpico[/TD]
[TD="class: field_Links"]Report | Stats[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: even away group_tests_sixnations rollover"]
[TD="class: field_DateAbbrev, bgcolor: #CDCDCD"]Sat 9th Feb 13[/TD]
[TD="class: field_TimeLong, bgcolor: #CDCDCD"]14:30[/TD]
[TD="class: field_HomeDisplay, bgcolor: #CDCDCD, align: right"]Scotland[/TD]
[TD="class: field_Score, bgcolor: #CDCDCD, align: center"]34 - 10[/TD]
[TD="class: field_AwayDisplay, bgcolor: #CDCDCD"]Italy[/TD]
[TD="class: field_VenName, bgcolor: #CDCDCD"]Murrayfield[/TD]
[TD="class: field_Links, bgcolor: #CDCDCD"]Report | Stats[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: odd home group_tests_sixnations"]
[TD="class: field_DateAbbrev"]Sat 23rd Feb 13[/TD]
[TD="class: field_TimeLong"]14:30[/TD]
[TD="class: field_HomeDisplay, align: right"]Italy[/TD]
[TD="class: field_Score, align: center"]9 - 26[/TD]
[TD="class: field_AwayDisplay"]Wales[/TD]
[TD="class: field_VenName"]Stadio Olimpico[/TD]
[TD="class: field_Links"]Report | Stats[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: even away group_tests_sixnations"]
[TD="class: field_DateAbbrev, bgcolor: #E2E2E2"]Sun 10th Mar 13[/TD]
[TD="class: field_TimeLong, bgcolor: #E2E2E2"]15:00[/TD]
[TD="class: field_HomeDisplay, bgcolor: #E2E2E2, align: right"]England[/TD]
[TD="class: field_Score, bgcolor: #E2E2E2, align: center"]18 - 11[/TD]
[TD="class: field_AwayDisplay, bgcolor: #E2E2E2"]Italy[/TD]
[TD="class: field_VenName, bgcolor: #E2E2E2"]Twickenham[/TD]
[TD="class: field_Links, bgcolor: #E2E2E2"]Report | Stats[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: odd home group_tests_sixnations"]
[TD="class: field_DateAbbrev"]Sat 16th Mar 13[/TD]
[TD="class: field_TimeLong"]14:30[/TD]
[TD="class: field_HomeDisplay, align: right"]Italy[/TD]
[TD="class: field_Score, align: center"]22 - 15[/TD]
[TD="class: field_AwayDisplay"]Ireland[/TD]
[TD="class: field_VenName"]Stadio Olimpico[/TD]
[TD="class: field_Links"]Report | Stats[/TD]
[/TR]
</tbody>[/TABLE]

Maybe I´m wrong, but my point is competition to get into the italian squad is harder now, because italian rugby is tronger now. Of course ther are and were great players, and very young when they started, but the results against others teams weren´t good at all at the beginning. They were very good, but the main reason all of them reached the NT so soon was that Italy didn´t have anything else better. They weren´t as good then as they became later.

Think in players like Bernabó, who is now 29, but played more matches with Italy around the mid 2000s than in the last years. The competition is now stronger. And the actual players like Cittadini had been behind them, the thing is before them there weren´t so good players. Italy had a great generation at the late 90s and first 2000s, but then... just a bunch of kids. I´m not saying Cittadini is as good as Castro, because is not trur, but he deserves credit. Look at the matches against England and Ireland, with Castro injuried.

About outstanding players, I don´t have the definition or the measure. If you are so gentle to give me a list of outstanding players younger than 24, I´d be gratefull anb maybe I´d be able to compare...

Treviso has some very young forwards who they trust, as Fuser or Maistri, just at first thought. In Zebre you have Ferrarini, Andrea de Marchi, Manici... Are they outstanding or just decent players? I don´t know, wait and see. But Perugini wasn´t outstanding before 25, nor Dellape, nor Ongaro... Just Castro, Parisse, Bortolami and maybe Bergamasco. I´m not worried with the wing-forwards nor the locks, so the real deal is nº3 and nº8. And is not due for next year.

If you take a look to the u20s, you´ll see a 3 called Pasquali (Leicester Academy) and a nº8 called Mata-Mbandá or just Mbandá who look good, but who knows how are they going to be in 5 years...

Actually Zebre is a development team, with more than half of the players are under 26 (with a lot being 20-22) and almost everyone else over 30, almost being the "teachers" . And of course they´re a mess this year, but you can see the improvement along the year. They got 7 defensive bonus already, and they´ve been leading in the last 10 minutes in the last two, but lost in the end. As somebody said, Celtic League is a great help for Italy. They´re training their young players at high level, and the lack of physicality which avoided them to fight in the last 20 minutes probably won´t be a problem in the future. I think they can develop players faster and better with this kind of competition.

I´m not one of the few who vsee Italy competing for the ***le in less than 10 years, but I don´t expect a big step back.

 

[Ainsthrilln]

Didn´t I post here?

I´m sorry, but I´m new here, and the forum showed me a message saying the message wasn´t going to be showed until a moderator accepted it, but now I can´t post... So I´m afraid I lost it for the second time .

 

[RWC2011Fan]

O'Driscoll's been cited:
http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/8442843/O-Driscoll-cited-for-alleged-stamp

 

[Helmy]

**** me, five years is a long time in rugby, or any sport for that matter. In the same vein, I think any international side would suffer if Parisse retired.

Why take the gleam off of a promising 6N by Italy by looking so far into the future? Bar Parisse, who in the Italian side at the moment is truly world class? Their front row perhaps, but that's almost a given when it comes to Italian rugby. The Italian team isn't about having super stars, it's about having a group of professional athletes competing for one another. If they continue with this attitude, they will continue to improve. The rest should hopefully sort itself out as Italian rugby sorts its structure out.

Isaia Toeva was rated one of the most promising young players many years ago, where is he now? Basing the success of individual players off of U20 rugby is a bit like basing a team's season off of pre-season matches. It might give you some idea, but until a player is tested in the big time, it's impossible to write him off completely.

As a side note, I wouldn't be surprised to see Parisse turning into a Brad Thorn esque player, either, he's got that nature about him.

 

[Ainsthrilln]

I would appreciate the psychic duck´s list of outstanding players younger than 24 in the 2013 6 Nations.

But look at ten years ago, at 2003 6 Nations. Only Mauro Bergamasco and Bortolami were starters (and Mauro as a wing, a back wing, not a wing forward, even if he was a forward in 2002). Castro, Ongaro, Mirco and Dellape were bench players. And Perugini, already almost 25, played only a match as a bench player these year.

Parisse came later. Zanni didn´t play until 2006, and only 3 games as a bench player. Then 3 as a starter and 2 as a bench player the next year. And Ghiraldini´s debut wasn´t in 2004, but in 2008.

It´s true most part of them started to play for Italy being really young, but Zanni wasn´t younger than Favaro, nor more important than Favaro at his age. And Perugini wasn´t much younger than de Marchi.

And look at the results from 2003 to 2006 and compare them with the results at 2013 6N. My point is that they started so young because Italy hadn´t got anything better in these times, not because they were so much better than the italian youngs of today. Of course they were great players, and I learnt to love rugby watching them, but the level of the italian team is higher now, and the competition to get into the squad is much stronger today, because this mature generation is much better than the mature generation of 2002-2004.

Look at Bernabó for example. He is 28 or 29 now, but he played more with Italy 5 years ago than in the last year, because the competition for the lock and back row position is harder now.

And of course, Parisse and probably Castrogiovanni are special and outstanding players who aren´t easy to replace in any team, but the other are great players, who improved a lot reaching their maturity. Most part of the players needs time to mature and improve. Specially forwards and props even more.

And about the Rabo, Zebre itself is a development team, with more than half a team under 26, lots of players being 20-22, and the other over 30 doing a "teacher" role. Ferrarini, Andrea de Marchi, Manici... are very interesting players. It´s true Zebre is doing very badly, but you can see the improvement of the team and the players along the year. They have seven defensivo bonus already, and they were leading in the last ten minutes the last two matches, even if they lost in the end. Zebre is a really bad team with some very good players. Think that people like Alberto de Marchi were playing for Aironi last year and he played really well against Dan Cole in the England-Italy of this 6N. Treviso really trusts Fuser and Maistri, for example. And I´m talking only about forwards.

And if you look to the u20 level, you have Mata-Mbandá, a really good nº8, and Pasquali, a very good nº3 who is in the Leicester Academy. But who knows how good are they going to be in 5 years?

 

[dasNdanger]

O'Driscoll's been cited:
http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/8442843/O-Driscoll-cited-for-alleged-stamp

I've seen worse, but I think it's also deserved. Watching the replay it's obviously a deliberate stamp, and then it appears he tries to plant the player's face into the ground when he tries to get up. Pretty nasty.


das

 

[KAPman]

Think that is Declan Kidney's time up as Ireland coach. I feel sorry for him this 6 nations with the amount of injuries he's had to deal with, but i think he's tried to stick with the same group of players for a bit too long, and hasnt been helped by the fact that those older players are still regular starters for their provinces. I think he should have been looking at getting younger players into the squad after the last world cup, but instead stuck with mostly the same group for last years six nations. He's tried to hang on to the generation of players who shone from 2000 to 2011. The younger players in the team have mostly been given their oppurtunity if there has been an injury the a more senior player. Also the depth in Ireland in some positions is not as strong as a few years ago. Example Heaslip, if he gets injured there's no out-and-out international quality or potential international number 8 to replace him, or Conor Murray, there doesn't seem to be a young quality number 9 as his back up, Mike Ross, there are decent tighthead back ups, but they arent first choice for their province, and also Mike McCarthey breaking into the team in his 30s. I also worry for their leadership. Apart from O'Driscoll there doesnt strike me as a natural leader in their ranks. Jamie Heaslip has not put his hand up in the captaincy role, though would give him another chance next season. I hope Brian O'Driscoll sticks around for the autumn internationals at least, as a send off in green, after that Ireland need to look at getting the younger players into the team and build toward the next world cup, all their provinces need focus more on youth development.
Who would replace Kidney if he goes? I'd go for Conor O'Shea, but dont think it will be him. Think they'll look to either Joe Schmit or Ewen MacKenzie, he's leaving the Reds at the end of the super 15 season. What is your say?

 

[munstermuffin]

Think that is Declan Kidney's time up as Ireland coach. I feel sorry for him this 6 nations with the amount of injuries he's had to deal with, but i think he's tried to stick with the same group of players for a bit too long, and hasnt been helped by the fact that those older players are still regular starters for their provinces. I think he should have been looking at getting younger players into the squad after the last world cup, but instead stuck with mostly the same group for last years six nations. He's tried to hang on to the generation of players who shone from 2000 to 2011. The younger players in the team have mostly been given their oppurtunity if there has been an injury the a more senior player. Also the depth in Ireland in some positions is not as strong as a few years ago. Example Heaslip, if he gets injured there's no out-and-out international quality or potential international number 8 to replace him, or Conor Murray, there doesn't seem to be a young quality number 9 as his back up, Mike Ross, there are decent tighthead back ups, but they arent first choice for their province, and also Mike McCarthey breaking into the team in his 30s. I also worry for their leadership. Apart from O'Driscoll there doesnt strike me as a natural leader in their ranks. Jamie Heaslip has not put his hand up in the captaincy role, though would give him another chance next season. I hope Brian O'Driscoll sticks around for the autumn internationals at least, as a send off in green, after that Ireland need to look at getting the younger players into the team and build toward the next world cup, all their provinces need focus more on youth development.
Who would replace Kidney if he goes? I'd go for Conor O'Shea, but dont think it will be him. Think they'll look to either Joe Schmit or Ewen MacKenzie, he's leaving the Reds at the end of the super 15 season. What is your say?

Disagree with a whole lot of this - apart from BOD you have POC, Best and I think Kearney as natural leaders.
Heaslip hasn't exactly being tearing up trees and were he to get injured Sean O'Brien could be let loose at 8 so no problem there. If Murray were to get injured we are equipped at 9 in terms of talent if not experience, McCarthy broke in because of POC injuy but till he is there to fill a gap and well there are options coming through so no worries there also.
And while Kidney may not have done alot positive 1 think he has and I'd disagree with you hugely is he has brought alot of youth to team - Healy, D. Ryan, SOB, POM, Heaslip (to an extent), Murray, Jackson, Marshall, Earls, Gilroy, Kearney are young enough add in he has used Archer, Fitzpatrick, Madigan, Paul Marshall, Zebo amongst others and few nearly ready for International rugby and been with squads like O'Donnell, Ruddock, D. Ryan maybe and certainly lads like Henshaw and McSharry so I think if Kidney goes that he will be laying decent foundations for next man

 

[KAPman]

Sean O'Brien would be a good number 8, but hes not a specialist there. And name a talented back up to Murray, besides Eion Reddan (Maybe Tomas O'Leary if he's fit)? Paul O'Connell is getting old too. Could make next world cup, but no gurentees. Of the younger players there doesnt strike me as a potential leader in the long run, maybe Conor Murray. Dont think Kearney would cut it as a captain, maybe sexton. And apart from Ross, the other tightheads arent first choice for their province: In Ulster its Afoa, in Munster its BJ Botha. And agree that Kearney, Sexton and Murray got in the national team by their talents, but the rest of the younger generation in the national side got oppurtunities because an older player got an injury and they got a chance in their place. Kidney has been a conservative selector for alot of his reign, and some of his selections over the years in certain position have been made completely irrespective of what form they are in, D'arcy is an example of that, so was O'Callaghan before this season, and so was O'Gara before the Scotland game

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Sean O'Brien would be a good number 8, but hes not a specialist there. And name a talented back up to Murray, besides Eion Reddan (Maybe Tomas O'Leary if he's fit)? Paul O'Connell is getting old too. Could make next world cup, but no gurentees. Of the younger players there doesnt strike me as a potential leader in the long run, maybe Conor Murray. Dont think Kearney would cut it as a captain, maybe sexton. And apart from Ross, the other tightheads arent first choice for their province: In Ulster its Afoa, in Munster its BJ Botha. And agree that Kearney, Sexton and Murray got in the national team by their talents, but the rest of the younger generation in the national side got oppurtunities because an older player got an injury and they got a chance in their place. Kidney has been a conservative selector for alot of his reign, and some of his selections over the years in certain position have been made completely irrespective of what form they are in, D'arcy is an example of that, so was O'Callaghan before this season, and so was O'Gara before the Scotland game

Paul Marshall is more than capable of replacing Murray and also more suited to an open game Ireland should be trying to play. As for captain, I reckon we're fine with Heaslip, I think it was difficult for him to captain the likes of BOD and ROG but he'll grow into the role much like Robshaw did with England. It's not that he's a bad captain he showed in Autumn and numerous times with Leinster he can captain he just should never have been captain ahead of BOD.

 

[munstermuffin]

Sean O'Brien would be a good number 8, but hes not a specialist there. And name a talented back up to Murray, besides Eion Reddan (Maybe Tomas O'Leary if he's fit)? Paul O'Connell is getting old too. Could make next world cup, but no gurentees. Of the younger players there doesnt strike me as a potential leader in the long run, maybe Conor Murray. Dont think Kearney would cut it as a captain, maybe sexton. And apart from Ross, the other tightheads arent first choice for their province: In Ulster its Afoa, in Munster its BJ Botha. And agree that Kearney, Sexton and Murray got in the national team by their talents, but the rest of the younger generation in the national side got oppurtunities because an older player got an injury and they got a chance in their place. Kidney has been a conservative selector for alot of his reign, and some of his selections over the years in certain position have been made completely irrespective of what form they are in, D'arcy is an example of that, so was O'Callaghan before this season, and so was O'Gara before the Scotland game

Disagree, Zebo and Gilroy earned their spots, POM earned his spot mixed with injury, And if you knew much about Irish system Kedney slightly had his hands yied with regards selection due to central contracts. It's no secret he wanted Madigan on tour last summer and IRFU refused to fund it. And while they aren't first choice the likes of Archer and Fitzpatrick (when fit) and others see plenty of gametime and start alot more than possibly the frontline lads. Add in regardless of how young lads get in to team, it's how they settled in and look at Luke Marshall for example has slotted in and made it a huge challenge for D'arcy to get back.
And Kearney in my opinion has key captain attributes and was key to Grand Slam. And well yes Paulie is getting old but players are coming through and if you actually do research in to Irish Rugby there will be a massive amount of talent coming through.

 

[Feicarsinn]

Disagree, Zebo and Gilroy earned their spots, POM earned his spot mixed with injury, And if you knew much about Irish system Kedney slightly had his hands yied with regards selection due to central contracts. It's no secret he wanted Madigan on tour last summer and IRFU refused to fund it. And while they aren't first choice the likes of Archer and Fitzpatrick (when fit) and others see plenty of gametime and start alot more than possibly the frontline lads. Add in regardless of how young lads get in to team, it's how they settled in and look at Luke Marshall for example has slotted in and made it a huge challenge for D'arcy to get back.
And Kearney in my opinion has key captain attributes and was key to Grand Slam. And well yes Paulie is getting old but players are coming through and if you actually do research in to Irish Rugby there will be a massive amount of talent coming through.

I'm still far from sure about POM. I always get the feeling that he requires more defending that praising if you get my drift. Very few times do I see him as the outstanding player in the game. That said, he's still a very young guy, but there are back rows in the country I'd like to see in a green shirt more than POM.

It's debatable whether Zebo and Gilroy earned their spots. Had Fitz and Bowe been fit they'd have been farther back unquestionably. We shouldn't forget that we were missing two test Lions in our back three.

Make Sexton captain. The kid thrives on being the mad. Hence why he's been so good for Leinster and why he was so poor for Ireland for a few years. If you back him and actually look to put the team in place around him he'll be our best player.