its all kicking off in georgia

[St Helens RLFC]

Can we knock the American stuff on the head please and concentrate on Georgia? If you want to discuss the ins and outs of American foreign policy please go right ahead and start a new thread.

This however is a current concern. The Russians are starting to show a total disregard for humanitarianism full stop with their lack of action against Zimbabwe and now marching into Georgia. The Georgians seem to be doing anything they can to stop this as they know they'll get totally overrun. It looks to me like they intend to take Tblisi by force.

 

[feicarsinn]

i wouldnt completely agree with you on that one the current hostilities began late last week when Georgian forces launched a surprise attack to regain control of South Ossetia, which has had de facto independence since the end of a civil war in 1992. The fact of the matter is most people in this area and Abkhazia are either full russian citizens or entitled to citizenship. In its own way Russia is trying to protect it's own

 

[Enguelaz]

i wouldnt completely agree with you on that one the current hostilities began late last week when Georgian forces launched a surprise attack to regain control of South Ossetia, which has had de facto independence since the end of a civil war in 1992. The fact of the matter is most people in this area and Abkhazia are either full russian citizens or entitled to citizenship. In its own way Russia is trying to protect it's own
[/b]

thanks for clearing this out, i was actually wondering how it started... Even thought, nowadays you never know who really does what and the convinient little secrets that no one will ever know.

it's funny cause my GF was actually telling me 3 weeks ago: "You'll see, there will be something happening during the Olympics"... I just wasn't expecting this.

This area of Europe has always been messed up, Countries have been literally made up (like Israel), sometimes separating a same "ethnicity" between two countries.

Bottom line is, even if the Georgians did wrong, Russia is clearly over-reacting and now pushing to overthrow the current government and eventually take control of Georgia... with total disregard of the Georgian population who never asked anything...

Hopes are slim, it seems we NEVER f#cking learn - Peace is just a philosophical concept created to cover up our twisted human nature...

 

[Fa'atau82]

I don't pretend to know much about Soviet Union. I thought there was no problem in that area and that Georgia was a stable, independent country that Russia would have gotten used to by now.

But then again i read there was big problems with some Australia and Solomon Islands recently. So it does happen.

 

[BLR]

This whole idea of 'Police action' is rubbish, I mean, didn't Hitler take under the Sudetenland under the idea that all the German people living in that area should be in Germany. It's history repeating itself. The US cannot do I thing but talk, Iraq has sapped thier strength to the point when they cannot really arrange anything to stop the Russians, although, as I mentioned before I don't think they will do so until it would be far too late.

This could go many ways.

If Russia get their way they will take full control of Georgia and declare something like Martial law and perhaps even throw up the universal term of 'terrorism' to justify their war.

Does Russia have veto on the security council? The option that SHOULD be taken is that the peacekeepers should go in. Tell the Russians to withdraw and the peacekeepers will police the area where this supposed genocide of Russian citizens is taking place.

 

[Charles]

i wouldnt completely agree with you on that one the current hostilities began late last week when Georgian forces launched a surprise attack to regain control of South Ossetia, which has had de facto independence since the end of a civil war in 1992. The fact of the matter is most people in this area and Abkhazia are either full russian citizens or entitled to citizenship. In its own way Russia is trying to protect it's own [/b]

By invading Georgia, an independent country. Are you joking ?

Putin (and Russia) cannot accept the disparition of the Soviet and he's doin everything he can to get control of the former soviet republics (Ukraine poisoning, Belarus, separatism in Moldova etc...).

 

[Steve-o]

<div class='quotemain'> i wouldnt completely agree with you on that one the current hostilities began late last week when Georgian forces launched a surprise attack to regain control of South Ossetia, which has had de facto independence since the end of a civil war in 1992. The fact of the matter is most people in this area and Abkhazia are either full russian citizens or entitled to citizenship. In its own way Russia is trying to protect it's own [/b]

By invading Georgia, an independent country. Are you joking ?

Putin (and Russia) cannot accept the disparition of the Soviet and he's doin everything he can to get control of the former soviet republics (Ukraine poisoning, Belarus, separatism in Moldova etc...).
[/b][/quote]
I agree Charles, that's crazy talk. And this is by no means a blip of Russian aggression, they've been doing constantly for years. In fact Russia still have land (named Kaliningrad) smack bang between Lithuania and Poland, some 200km and 2 countries away from the mainland. It's ludacris.
Do yourself a favour feicarsinn and read up on what happened around 1999 in Chechnya, and more specifically what happened to the capital Grozny.

 

[smartcooky]

The Russians are ****-scared that Ukraine will join NATO, which Kiev has flagged as likely. If they did, Russia loses most of its Black Sea ports at a single stroke.

While the Russians "believe" they have justification for going into Georgia, they are just as happy for this action to serve as a warning to Kiev!!

 

[Charles]

As I said it's just Realpolitik at its best, it's very well done by Russia: Europe has no balls whatsoever, Bush is a tool and has his hands tied in Irak and Afghanistan, the field is wide open for Russia ..

 

[Charles]

As I said it's just Realpolitik at its best, it's very well done by Russia: Europe has no balls whatsoever, Bush is a tool and has his hands tied in Irak and Afghanistan, the field is wide open for Russia .. [/b]

Edit: Russian Prsident Medvedev says he's ordered the end of the military operations in Georgia.

 

[Prestwick]

Thats because he and Putin have achieved all that he wants to achieve: kicking Georgia out of South Ossetia and effectively redrawing the borders to secure vital Russian interests in the Caucasus.

 

[feicarsinn]

<div class='quotemain'>
<div class='quotemain'> i wouldnt completely agree with you on that one the current hostilities began late last week when Georgian forces launched a surprise attack to regain control of South Ossetia, which has had de facto independence since the end of a civil war in 1992. The fact of the matter is most people in this area and Abkhazia are either full russian citizens or entitled to citizenship. In its own way Russia is trying to protect it's own [/b]

By invading Georgia, an independent country. Are you joking ?

Putin (and Russia) cannot accept the disparition of the Soviet and he's doin everything he can to get control of the former soviet republics (Ukraine poisoning, Belarus, separatism in Moldova etc...).
[/b][/quote]
I agree Charles, that's crazy talk. And this is by no means a blip of Russian aggression, they've been doing constantly for years. In fact Russia still have land (named Kaliningrad) smack bang between Lithuania and Poland, some 200km and 2 countries away from the mainland. It's ludacris.
Do yourself a favour feicarsinn and read up on what happened around 1999 in Chechnya, and more specifically what happened to the capital Grozny.
[/b][/quote]sorry lads i dont know if you read my post at all South Ossetia tried to declare independance from georgia years ago but hasnt been regonised by the international community it did in fact however have the support of russsia so when Georgia moved troops Russia reacted as nearly all people of South Ossetia are russian citizens. I do agree however they have over reacted to the situation. And on the whole Kaliningrad issue if you knew any european history you'd know poland and lithuania have no claim to it as it was land captured from the Germans after the Second World War, Formerly containing the capitol of Eastern Prussia. The Majority of it's population is russian so i dont see what your point is

 

[Steve-o]

Feicarsinn, South Ossetia IS part of Georgia. It doesn't matter who supports them. It obvious some extremist or cult like leader rallied the residents together to establish yet another Eastern European republic.
Go ahead and buy a 1 meter by 1 meter piece of land in a park and try establish an independent republic. If the Irish authorities give you any trouble just radio in mother Russia.
Georgia is not part of the Soviet Union anymore, the Russia Federation have no claim. With that kind of logic Russia can just stroll into Estonia, Ukraine, Belarus, etc and take over because it was "once theirs". Come man, what you trying to prove?

You obviously don't know much about Soviet Union history if actually think Russia some how has 100% rightful claim to Kaliningrad, which was "transfered" to the Soviet Union after WW2, like the other Eastern European regions that were "transfered" along with it. Heck the Russians even occupied Berlin for several weeks after the fall of the Nazi's and were very keen on doing another "transfer" before the Allies told them to take a hike. Just because Russia had more sex and babies there doesn't make it theirs.

 

[shtove]

Russia reacted as nearly all people of South Ossetia are russian citizens. I do agree however they have over reacted to the situation. And on the whole Kaliningrad issue if you knew any european history you'd know poland and lithuania have no claim to it as it was land captured from the Germans after the Second World War, Formerly containing the capitol of Eastern Prussia. The Majority of it's population is russian so i dont see what your point is
[/b]

This is the point - Russians are in Kaliningrad because the USSR colonised it. That's also why they're in the Caucusus and central Asia. They've been colonising for centuries. Ukraine is a mind blowing example - think of the Holomodor, almost as ruthless as the Holocaust, and probably more efficient.

Before Hitler went hunting for Stalin, there were German colonists strung out across the Baltic states and western Russia - living there for hundreds of years. They're not there now because ... you know the story.

And a major part of Hitler's strategy in Barbarossa was to gain control of the Caucusus - because of the oil, not just around the Caspian but in the Gulf as well. It's part of the reason Israel is so important to the west - that strategic control is needed to keep the oil flowing to industry, and to our (America's) fleets and battalions.

I'm not sure how to join the dots, but western Europe is in big trouble ... again! Appeasement looks like the way to go. ****.

 

[redunderthebed]

^ The Yanks won't do anything, they like to fight those who can't possibly fight them on thier own soil. They haven't been in a fair fight since WW2 and even then they came in when the Nazi's weren't exactly the strongest. [/b]

About right if it wasnt for the soviet union forcing them to fight on two fronts the allies would of had a helluva lot harder fight with hitler.

<div class='quotemain'>
^ The Yanks won't do anything, they like to fight those who can't possibly fight them on thier own soil. They haven't been in a fair fight since WW2 and even then they came in when the Nazi's weren't exactly the strongest.
[/b]

Hmm, the fact that the US was attacked by the Japanese in 1941, when Germany was at the height of its power seems to slip your mind. You are partly right though, the Yanks don't give a damn unless there's a risk to their precious oil supply [/b][/quote]



1941 was the beginning of the end for hitler the whole pearl harbour thing has always seemed a bit too convenient.Like WWI where they let the allies die by there thousands but when there was loot to be had the yanks finally turned up.

<div class='quotemain'> Official US thoughts on the situation:

'What's that? Russia has oil? w00p w00p hey hey hey.. hey.. wait a minute.. they causing trouble with Georgia state..!?? OMGWTF! who ya gonna call..? w00p w00p Uncle Sam that's who.. we gonna kick yo' communist muthafcukin a$$ KERRRRCHING.. ROFLMAO OMG let's smash the commies1!!11!!!1 LOLZORZ'.
[/b]

Please save yourself from looking ignorant by not posting such ridiculous statements.

^ The Yanks won't do anything, they like to fight those who can't possibly fight them on thier own soil. They haven't been in a fair fight since WW2 and even then they came in when the Nazi's weren't exactly the strongest.[/b]

That's a cute statement coming from someone who lives in Australia. You can talk **** about the United States of America all you want, but you better believe if it wasn't for us winning the war in the Pacific you wouldn't be enjoying the freedom you enjoy today. And i think its funny you don't remember September 11, 2001 when we were attacked on our own soil, and we are now attacking them on their own soil. And if you don't believe the United States played a crucial part in the destruction of the Nazi regime then you should get your head examined, although we might not have been in the war as long we supplied foreign forces with supplies. Ha funny and Aussie talking **** about the USA.

And i don't care about your fair this fair that bullshit, you tell me right now was it fair that on September 11 that 3,000 innocent people lost their lives, was that f***ing fair? You f***ing tell me that. [/b][/quote]



No dipshit if it wasnt for John Curtin standing up to that pompous drunk Winston Churchill and bringing home the Australian troops we would of being screwed.The allies didnt give a toss about us they would of loved for us to be occupied so they can march through Canberra triumphant saying they liberated us.



The soviet union and its people willingly died by the millions to defeat hitler and his evil battle of stalingrad anyone?,In comparision the yanks did sweet FA.



We have spent our whole existance as a nation with our military being cannon fodder for the <strike>old bag </strike>Queen and Uncle Sam's B*llshit.

30th July 2008

Eugene, Oregon.
Barry Cheever, 33, a local technical support worker at BoonDog Internet, has forgotten that the events of September 11, 2001 ever happened, making him the first recorded case of Forgetting 9/11, an epidemic that we have long been warned of but which has not materialized... until now.

We sat down with Cheever and his long-time roommate Dave Gunderson to try to figure out how Cheever could have possibly forgotten 9/11.

"I don't know," says Cheever. "September 11, 2001? That was like seven years ago. Honestly, do you remember details from that far back? Do you remember what you ate for breakfast on June 14, 2003?"

"It's not like that at all," interjects Gunderson. "9/11 changed everything! How could you possibly forget it?"

"Well, maybe I wasn't aware of it in the first place," suggests Cheever. "I mean, I was one of the last people to learn that Britney Spears had flashed her bits in public. I didn't know about that until like a week after it happened. So maybe this 9/11 thing just slipped under my radar."

Gunderson bangs his head against the table.

"It didn't slip under your radar! We watched it on TV! You were crying and yelling about how whoever did this needed to pay!"

Cheever squints his eyes shut in a look of deep concentration.

"Wait... September 11, 2001... was that the day your parents' puppy ate too much and its stomach swelled up and messed up its heart and they had to have its stomach pumped, and then it slept for like two days?"

"NO!" exclaims a frustrated Gunderson. "Dude, that was September 12. It was the day after! How the hell can you remember that, and not 9/11?"

"Look," replies Cheever. "I'm not saying it didn't happen, okay? I'm just saying I don't remember it. Maybe it happened, and maybe it didn't. I don't know. Hey, I'm late for work. Remind me to take out the trash tonight, okay?"

The public has reacted strongly to Cheever's forgetfulness.

At a hastily-arranged press conference, former New York mayor Rudy Guiliani issued the following statement:

"I told you this would happen! I told you that if we didn't constantly remind ourselves to remember 9/11, people would start forgetting! But did you listen? NOOOOO. You nominated that wacky old guy with the skin cancer instead. Well, you know what? Screw you guys. Today, the terrorists have won."

The U.S. House of Representatives passed a resolution encouraging Americans to tie red pieces of string around their fingers to remind them of 9/11. The resolution passed 434-1, with the sole dissenter, Congressman Ron Paul (D-MA), arguing that Congress does not have the authority to encourage anything, and that all encouragement must be left in the hands of local governments. [/b]

I don't think thats funny.

I'll never forget september 11

I'll never forget the tears of the girl in my class who lost a relative in the Twin Towers.

I'll never forget the images of people jumping from the towers to their deaths because they had no hope.

I'll never forget the brave men and women who rushed into the towers risking life to save others.

I'll never forget the people who came out of the buildings bloody and bruised and burned.

I'll never forget the heart stopping image of those towers collapsing. [/b]

This annoys me but doesnt surprise me.Americans are so insular about the outside world that they dont realise that countries have dealt with terrorism for years and generations and the terrorists have never won.But in 9/11 that insular bubble was burst they realised "hey people hate us!" (and for good reasons whilst 9/11 was totally the wrong was of doing things).Instead of being rational and thinking that people are ****** off with and how to rectify there image in the world and to arrest these ********.Instead they went on a stupid wars (what am i saying the yanks have being on that junket since WWII) that ****** more people that causes more terrorism.Oh and the war on terrorism like its a new threat (its being around since roman times) that we need to bomb the crap out of more countries!.



If this happened to anyone else the americans would of forgot about it by now especially if the group that did it American liked.





As for the South Ossetia i can see the bloody hand of washington in this.They armed trained and re-trained there forces before then Georgia couldnt invade a football pitch.I think that they where planning this all along with washington quiet approval but dropped them like its hot when they realised that Russia despite all the yankee hardware was going to get crushed.



South Ossetia should of never being apart of georgia.



Oh and Condy was f**king hilarious

This isnt 1968 you cannot invade a country invade its capital and topple its government[/b]

Oh the f***ing irony :lol2tn: whats iraq war a laugh?

 

[BLR]

A few points redunderthebed. Stalin purposely kept back many of his armies to get the Allies to start a new front so as to not take ALL of the brunt of the Nazi war machine but it wasn't the second front that killed off the Nazi's it was the Soviets grinding them down. The Allies essentially acted as a mop up crew on a small and fastly retreating army, the best troops were on the Eastern front.

I always wonder what would have happened if the Australians hadn't held the Japanese at Kokoda. Plus what would have happened if after the defeat at the Phillipines our government hadn't granted sanctuary to the US to lick their wounds and assemble a battle plan. The myth that the US came in and saved the day is false, as the Australians thought some of the most important battles of the Pacific campaign, stopping the Japanese land forces and giving the Americans, who had profited greatly over three years of supplying war equipment without actually fighting themselves, a place to devise a war plan. The Americans from this point took much the same attitude as they took after 9/11, gung-ho, this is our war kind of thinking. Without regards to the brave Australian soldiers who had fought the Japs and knew how to defeat them with their smarts the Americans put them on cleanup duty as they, in the majority, wanted the vengeance of the US to come down upon the Japanese. Hardly heroic, more vengeful on their enemies, but it is part of their society to be all gung-ho and slightly self centred so I don't suppose we can blame them.

And for DC, just remember a few battalions of 'green' troops stood and halted the advance of the undefeated Japanese army, we showed the world they were defeatable, and we acknowledged the fact that although we could defend ourselves via the Brisbane line it would be much easier to give the once again defeated American forces a place to lick their wounds so that they could recover and not be destroyed by the Japanese momentum, this moment of granting sanctuary coupled with Kokoda was the Pacific campaigns Stalingrad, it took the Japanese off the offensive and with the oncoming battles turned the tide once and for all.

 

[DC]

This annoys me but doesnt surprise me.Americans are so insular about the outside world that they dont realise that countries have dealt with terrorism for years and generations and the terrorists have never won.But in 9/11 that insular bubble was burst they realised "hey people hate us!" (and for good reasons whilst 9/11 was totally the wrong was of doing things).Instead of being rational and thinking that people are ****** off with and how to rectify there image in the world and to arrest these ********.Instead they went on a stupid wars (what am i saying the yanks have being on that junket since WWII) that ****** more people that causes more terrorism.Oh and the war on terrorism like its a new threat (its being around since roman times) that we need to bomb the crap out of more countries!.[/b]

What annoys me most is that you believe that the murder of 3000 innocent people is justifiable by the fact that "they hate us." I think it's more comical that you believe it's for good reason, "We hate that their women don't cover themselves head to toe, we hate everything about the west, and their way of life" Seriously thats a load of ****. So you must hate the "Western" style of life as well then? But honestly you believe communism is a GREAT way to run your country.. Anyone who thinks that way obviously has a few screws loose upstairs. Communism is so great that the people of North Korea are starving to death, and the people of Cuba are stuck in the 1950s.. the only successful form of "Communism" is China which is certainly Capatalist and not Communist.

You are aware that the US provided the allies with crucial resources throughout the war, yes?

Also correct me if im wrong but isn't it safe to believe that WWI and WWII were both European conflicts, isn't it funny when any country needs help they call on the "Asshole" Americans to come bale them out. You guys can treat us like **** but when you need a helping hand its funny who you all call on..

 

[Fa'atau82]

This is all getting a bit narky now lads, calm down.

Fact is these things will always happen because they always have done in the past and it is for the same issue.. history repeats.. it's all about the geographical assets, mineral assets and always the money.

Whether it be China with Tibet, US with the middle east or Russia in ex-soviet states.. it's sad that we all can't live in peace with what we have and that the bigger nations can't help poke their nose in to see what they can get or attack the vulnerable.

The conflict is always secondary to the politics of deciding and invading a country.

[/quote]We have spent our whole existance as a nation with our military being cannon fodder for the old bag Queen and Uncle Sam's B*llshit.

I agree with this. Why would a fijian, australian, kiwi (other than the links to GB), for example ever fight in Iraq? For the queen? It means nothing these days. THERE IS NO EMPIRE and Uncle Sam can go **** himself.

It's not even in their sodding hemisphere, and when was the last time the Queen visited Fiji?

Afghanistan, i understand. The current wave of terrorism is based there and it needs to be sorted once and for all and it affects all of us. 9/11 could happen to any major international city.

But Iraq? Why is Iraq different to Zimbabwe, North Korea or Columbia, 'insert african country here' or any country who has a regime of drugs, terrorism or hideous repression of it's people for that matter? I don't accept terrorism. Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11. Bin Laden and Saddam don't even get on and they both hate the west!

Iraq was just wretched under Saddam until the allies came in. Then it escalated into more extreme fundamentalism because we interfered again. Now it's a fcuking impossible mess that we are now losing because we can't help but poke our nose in. We was right in the Gulf War when Iraq invaded Kuwait, but not now. If we'd have finished off Saddam then we might have had a better result. We still have no evidence of the WMD's.

You are all obliged to fight because you are allies. Even if it has nothing at all to do with you.

So accept it, we (US and UK) are no better than China and Russia who clearly take what they want to.

 

[steynboi]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DC @ Aug 23 2008, 05:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE

This annoys me but doesnt surprise me.Americans are so insular about the outside world that they dont realise that countries have dealt with terrorism for years and generations and the terrorists have never won.But in 9/11 that insular bubble was burst they realised "hey people hate us!" (and for good reasons whilst 9/11 was totally the wrong was of doing things).Instead of being rational and thinking that people are ****** off with and how to rectify there image in the world and to arrest these ********.Instead they went on a stupid wars (what am i saying the yanks have being on that junket since WWII) that ****** more people that causes more terrorism.Oh and the war on terrorism like its a new threat (its being around since roman times) that we need to bomb the crap out of more countries!.[/b]

What annoys me most is that you believe that the murder of 3000 innocent people is justifiable by the fact that "they hate us." I think it's more comical that you believe it's for good reason, "We hate that their women don't cover themselves head to toe, we hate everything about the west, and their way of life" Seriously thats a load of ****. So you must hate the "Western" style of life as well then? But honestly you believe communism is a GREAT way to run your country.. Anyone who thinks that way obviously has a few screws loose upstairs. Communism is so great that the people of North Korea are starving to death, and the people of Cuba are stuck in the 1950s.. the only successful form of "Communism" is China which is certainly Capatalist and not Communist.

You are aware that the US provided the allies with crucial resources throughout the war, yes?

Also correct me if im wrong but isn't it safe to believe that WWI and WWII were both European conflicts, isn't it funny when any country needs help they call on the "Asshole" Americans to come bale them out. You guys can treat us like **** but when you need a helping hand its funny who you all call on..
[/b][/quote]

i think the americans are wicked

1)most are nice the ones i know are nice
2)there king of rap
3)they have some hot women
4)they have big good army
5)there current president is good (george bush)


The russians were out of order bombing a station and then signing the treaty.

 

[St Helens RLFC]

Are you all blind?

This thread is about Georgia - NOT American foreign policy. If you want to start a new thread, and there is some fantastic debate going on, then do it, but please don't take threads off topic!