its all kicking off in georgia

[Steve-o]

GingerGenius I've already criticized an aspect of democracy in another thread, atleast in the South African context. Where the majority of the population is illiterate and only think as far as their noses. I never said democracy was the perfect for every country but it's more often than not the only way to decentralize power. Especially with the intervention of well functioning parlament, where multi parties can have a say.
I actually believe the concept of communism is very logical and functional, but power hungery and greedy humans are it's downfall.
I actually think Britain/England is in pretty good shape if 20% (of voters) is the majority party. That means there is 80% of voters that support one of multiple parties that got less than a 20% voting support. Which means power is shared pretty evenly in parlament and it's impossible for the party with 20% to run the show as it wishes, as they are technically outnumbered. This of course relies on the opposition's goodwill for the country.
Here in SA the ANC has around 66% of voters support and they running a mock. I could give you examples till the cows come home of how they are the very definition of an old boys club.
Trust me, the more power that shared, the better.
EDIT: Prestwick also sums it up well

 

[Laetca]

I'm not saying the British voting system is complete crap either

Neither am I saying that Belgium is an example to anyone, I don't know how many jokes involving belgian government (or the non-existance of it) have been made. There are so many governments who all want to achieve their own goals, but they all ***** and moan to one another so one government can't screw up too much, because there will always be a few other governments watching. I think Belgium's system works because it's like a house of cards. Not the best situation, obviously

As said before, there is no 100% good system, I like Steve-O's point about communism being very logical (except that people get lazy, because no matter how little they do at work they get paid) but ineffective because it's up to the people to make it work.

 

[gingergenius]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Prestwick @ Aug 28 2008, 06:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Laetca @ Aug 28 2008, 01:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gingergenius @ Aug 28 2008, 10:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I wouldn't promote democracy so much when our Government was elected by only 20% of Britons[/b]

That 20% has more to do with the way voting is organised in the UK, then with democracy not working. Voting is optional and there's that stupid first past the post system, how can you expect the result of the election to reflect in any way the opinion of everybody?
Same in the US, about 30% of the people who are allowed to vote actually registered to do so?[/b][/quote]

Firstly, GG's figure is flawed.

[/b][/quote]

No. 33% of the vote does not = 33% of Britons. If you add in all the people who didn't bother voting, who still count and are still an issue, then its 20%. Give or take a few decimal points.

OK, steve-o, I'm not sure you get the British system. 20% of people voted for Labour in 2005. 35% of voters. However, that translates into seats. Labour won 55% of the seats. Which means that the other parties have no power at all.

You can argue till the cows come home as to the +/- of First Past The Post vs Proportional Representation. Undemocratic vs Democratic; Majority Gvt vs Squabbles; Regional Representation vs MPs selected off a list. However, there is a hybrid system whereby the vote goes ahead for FPTP, then additional members are added to even things up proportionally. I personally think this is the best option.

 

[BLR]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gingergenius @ Aug 29 2008, 06:27 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

No. 33% of the vote does not = 33% of Britons. If you add in all the people who didn't bother voting, who still count and are still an issue, then its 20%. Give or take a few decimal points.[/b]

If you don't vote you don't have the right to complain, simple as that.

We fine people who are registered to vote but don't vote in Australia. Probably not a good thing though, judging by the type of people I see at the poll booths their vote is surely going to go to the stupidest candidate, just so they can be a rebel or whatever. Only Landowners should vote, still a large majority but weeds out some of the drifters who vote on who the media tells them to vote for. I wonder how many douches I will see at the polls on September 6th with mohawks voting for the Greens just to make their vote not count....

 

[gingergenius]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BLR @ Aug 29 2008, 03:40 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gingergenius @ Aug 29 2008, 06:27 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No. 33% of the vote does not = 33% of Britons. If you add in all the people who didn't bother voting, who still count and are still an issue, then its 20%. Give or take a few decimal points.[/b]

If you don't vote you don't have the right to complain, simple as that.

We fine people who are registered to vote but don't vote in Australia. Probably not a good thing though, judging by the type of people I see at the poll booths their vote is surely going to go to the stupidest candidate, just so they can be a rebel or whatever. Only Landowners should vote, still a large majority but weeds out some of the drifters who vote on who the media tells them to vote for. I wonder how many douches I will see at the polls on September 6th with mohawks voting for the Greens just to make their vote not count....
[/b][/quote]

No. Seriously, no. Your idea comes right out of the 17th century. What's a landowner? Pretty much everyone who doesn't live in council housing. So you'll lose a large part of the left's vote. Which is really fair...

I think in Britain, it should be compulsory to vote. At the moment, all our votes are held on Thursdays. That's a working day, and many people have other things to do and voting isn't on top of their list. The vote should be on Saturday for starters. Next, I understand that some people being forced to a polling station probably won't vote sensibly. So you have an abstention box on the ballot paper. I think the biggest issue with people not voting isn't that they don't have opinions/ they're rebelling against the system; just that they can't be arsed to go to the polls. If you get them there and then let them make a choice, then at least the whole country will have had a say in who wins.

 

[Prestwick]

Thats exactly why the 20% figure is flawed. I'm taking my figure from those who have bothered to do their civic duty and vote, like BLR said, you don't bother to vote, you shouldn't be part of the figures.

AMS (Additional Member System) is good in theory but tends to be used as an afterthought, I should know I've voted in the Scottish elections and myself and many other voters just used the top up vote as a novelty vote. It tends to trivialise the whole voting process and the emphasis is still very much on the seats elected directly by FPTP.

Strange patterns between votes cast (33%) and seats won (enough for a fair majority) will always happen in a FPTP situation unless of course you have a section of the country who will always vote for a certain party in large numbers. Canada and Bloc Qubecois immediately spring to mind as their large faction in their Parliament has served to skew and distort Canadian federal politics for decades.

We've seen in the 1980s with the SDP and before in the years running up to Labours first government how large numbers of people can be mobilised to vote for a party but come to nothing because they don't vote in their constituencies for the same party. This is down to a fundamental misunderstanding about how the system works, its down to how many MPs are elected and not on total votes cast.

The problem with saying that the "other parties have no power at all" is to misunderstand the nature of the British system. The role of the opposition is to bring Government to account, the tories whenever they've been in opposition have modified that role somewhat to bringing Government to account and to modify legislation mostly through the Lords and exert power that way. Also, clever manipulation of situations caused by unruly Government backbenchers also means that sometimes the Opposition can hold all the cards. See Labour in the 1990s when Major's government was on the rack over Maastrict and (again) Labour in the 2000s over rebellions on the abolition of the 10p tax band.

Personally, I would rather have it that the individual party which the biggest section of public voted for have power than an unstable group of parties forced into coalition on a platform which fails all of the voters who had voted for it. You're never going to achieve harmonious co-operation.

The existing system is fine, its the misconduct of all three major parties that has caused the apathy and fall in voting numbers over the past fifteen years. Tinkering with the voting system or with the electoral laws will not solve much than petty electoral fraud in the West Midlands.

EDIT: Also, Landowners have merely undergone a transformation into "the countryside" the latter now a disadvantaged, poverty stricken and beleaguered minority attacked on all sides by rich ignorant Townies who'd probably let ZANU-PF "war vets" loose in rural Gloucestershire if they came over by the boat load.

 

[shtove]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Prestwick @ Aug 29 2008, 08:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

The existing system is fine, its the misconduct of all three major parties that has caused the apathy and fall in voting numbers over the past fifteen years. Tinkering with the voting system or with the electoral laws will not solve much than petty electoral fraud in the West Midlands.[/b]

How can you say it's fine, when professional politicians are the ones who run the system and are intent on running it in to the ground?

Latest example:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

Gordon Brown is set to usher in a new era of council housing by helping local authorities to buy repossessed and unsold properties. Cash and powers will be made available so that town halls can intervene in the housing market, The Times has learnt[/b]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/money/pro...icle4629981.ece

It's probably another lot of hot air from NuLab, but what if the desperate One at #10 gives this the OK? Scroungers and bureaucrats get to party at the taxpayer's expense, indefinitely. And the people who come out with the biggest smile on their faces are ... the bankers. Who basically pay the professional politicians.

Bring back juries to make decisions, get rid of bureaucrats and local politicians.

On topic - Gingergenius, how do you like these apples?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

Fears are mounting that Russia may restrict oil deliveries to Western Europe over coming days, in response to the threat of EU sanctions and Nato naval actions in the Black Sea.

Any such move would be a dramatic escalation of the Georgia crisis and play havoc with the oil markets.

Reports have begun to circulate in Moscow that Russian oil companies are under orders from the Kremlin to prepare for a supply cut to Germany and Poland through the Druzhba (Friendship) pipeline. It is believed that executives from lead-producer LUKoil have been put on weekend alert.[/b]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtm...cnrussia129.xml

The oil markets didn't react, so it's probably hot air - but the fact this kind of speculation is doing the rounds should make you think twice about Russia.

 

[Prestwick]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (shtove @ Aug 29 2008, 06:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Prestwick @ Aug 29 2008, 08:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The existing system is fine, its the misconduct of all three major parties that has caused the apathy and fall in voting numbers over the past fifteen years. Tinkering with the voting system or with the electoral laws will not solve much than petty electoral fraud in the West Midlands.[/b]

How can you say it's fine, when professional politicians are the ones who run the system and are intent on running it in to the ground?
[/b][/quote]

You misunderstood what I said. I said that the present system of electing people via FPTP, the people who count the votes, man the voting stations, adjudicate the proceedings and keep the system going is sound. This is despite the flawed attempts to enforce postal voting and electronic counting.

At the end of the day, it is the British public who are the creators of their own misery. After all, someone must have voted Labour in....

...and no remarks about Brown not being elected, please don't make me have to go through "British Political System 101" again...

 

[gingergenius]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (shtove @ Aug 29 2008, 06:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Prestwick @ Aug 29 2008, 08:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The existing system is fine, its the misconduct of all three major parties that has caused the apathy and fall in voting numbers over the past fifteen years. Tinkering with the voting system or with the electoral laws will not solve much than petty electoral fraud in the West Midlands.[/b]

How can you say it's fine, when professional politicians are the ones who run the system and are intent on running it in to the ground?

Latest example:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

Gordon Brown is set to usher in a new era of council housing by helping local authorities to buy repossessed and unsold properties. Cash and powers will be made available so that town halls can intervene in the housing market, The Times has learnt[/b]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/money/pro...icle4629981.ece

It's probably another lot of hot air from NuLab, but what if the desperate One at #10 gives this the OK? Scroungers and bureaucrats get to party at the taxpayer's expense, indefinitely. And the people who come out with the biggest smile on their faces are ... the bankers. Who basically pay the professional politicians.

Bring back juries to make decisions, get rid of bureaucrats and local politicians.

On topic - Gingergenius, how do you like these apples?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

Fears are mounting that Russia may restrict oil deliveries to Western Europe over coming days, in response to the threat of EU sanctions and Nato naval actions in the Black Sea.

Any such move would be a dramatic escalation of the Georgia crisis and play havoc with the oil markets.

Reports have begun to circulate in Moscow that Russian oil companies are under orders from the Kremlin to prepare for a supply cut to Germany and Poland through the Druzhba (Friendship) pipeline. It is believed that executives from lead-producer LUKoil have been put on weekend alert.[/b]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtm...cnrussia129.xml

The oil markets didn't react, so it's probably hot air - but the fact this kind of speculation is doing the rounds should make you think twice about Russia.
[/b][/quote]

looks like both sides are comparing dick size. Idiots.

 

[alexrugby]

Hello everybody
Nice to hear that somebody does worry about my country and about my people who died more than 3000 in this terrible war that was initiated by Russia and was ended by Russia too
many people say it was Georgian side to first open fire but fact is another one: South Ossetian Separatists started to bomb Georgian willages with so called Katiusha rockets and killed people
after what Georgian military operation followed
we were strong and AS THE RUSSIAN WAR EXPERTS SAY WE MADE A HUGE MILITARY MIRACLE IN THIS WAR
after what Russians started to bomb WHOLE GEORGIAN TERRITORY AND CIVIL OBJECTS
LATER THEY HAVE MADE ETHNICAL CLEANING IN GEORGIA'S OSSETIAN REGION, rape, theft and other terrible acts werte followed by russian troopsSeveral Bombarding planes like MIG and SU 25 have been flyin' above my home in Mountinous Georgia
AND ALSO BOMBS WITH RED LINES AND red straps are especially left in cities for the children to pick up them
Also RUSSIANS DIDN'T ALLOW RED CROSS TO EVACUATE WOUNDED AND DEAD GEORGIANS
ALSO RUSSIANS LEFT IN GEORGIAN CITIES FIRED AT PEOPLE MEETINGS BUT PEOPLE STOOD STRONG AND EVEN APPLAUSED
they were taking even USED TOILET SEATS from Georgian villagers
and everything this became something like "Russian beggar show" in my territory
we made first little steps towards democracy, towards NATO and especially towards BETTER LIFE
that appeared unacceptable for our Northern neighbours and did what they did
again millions of thanks for attention
I HOPE RUSSIAN NATIONAL RUGBY TEAM WILL HAVE GREAT RETRICTIONS, which on the other way is bad for us:
as we have won 10games of 12, one loss and one game was ended with same scores
its already 10 games we defeat Russia and would be good if we meet them again and again
thanks mates
This attention means a lot for us Georgians today

Visit THIS Website

 

[Prestwick]

I for one stand by Georgia as I stand by the Ukraine and the Baltic States.

Right or wrong, this is Russian hypocrisy, "defending" the right of people to declare independence (no matter how dubious) when it suits them and then ruthlessly crushing any resistance when the likes of Chechnya decides that they wish to become independent.

I'm glad you're okay Lekso, I did suddenly remember "holy crap, we've got Georgian members on this forum!" And had nightmares about you being captured in South Ossetia or something

 

[alexrugby]

Yeah! was not the most comfortbale moment in my life

Russian political faces are so insightless as is their action

despite thinking about the economic and mental development (to stick on post soviet countries as people love there where comfortable life is awaited) they think of how to manage worldwide intriguing political swindles and how to shake fist to all the developed world.

Also worth to admit that South Ossetia is the historical part of Georgia where people from North Ossetian Republic were transferred and settled down in 20s of 20th century by Soviet authorities, as they put potential Bombs in other countries.

Believe me Georgia benefited more by this terrible days than Russia did as whole EU is coming for special meeting to help my country and to stuck Russia in a hole.

But believe also the people who died during these warfare days mean more for me and for all Georgians than all the economic and geographical benefits.

Thanks for being with Georgia and making thread about this events.
Cheers.

 

[alexrugby]

Hello dear mates
Again thanks for your attention to my country and my people's trouble as main bulk of the most amazing rugby forum members visited this thread and reflected their free mind about Georgia's trouble brougb=ht by Russian jets and Tanks.

Now as Georgia is on the way to free own mind absolutely from 250 years of Russian occupation my people organized 'Human Chain Action against Russian intervention (military and political) ih Georgia" and finally spotted our direction to Free World of EU and West.

More than 1,5 millions of people went out today in the big cities of Georgia and made one whole Human Chain

Chain approached Russian occupational military forces and stood in front of snipers and soldiers without fear

Emotionally loaded pople declared whole world that Georgia never gives in and no surrender from us.....

Wishes are big and noble...

Best regards from sunny Georgia

Videos of Georgian Human Chain

 

[Prestwick]

Surely image of the conflict, Georgian swigging from vodka in the face of Russian aggression. :lol:

 

[alexrugby]

ahah! you made me smile my friend :cheers:
Not Russian vodka but one of the most famous and amazing Georgian mineral waters Borjomi :cheers:
This water is the god knows how many times winner of several contests with its amazing features :cheers:
Russians are fond of these waters and especially Borjomi and even in these days they were shakin' fist that Borjomi district along with Bakuriani skiing complexes would be Russian soon but they were driven out from these places :ranting:
look for BORJOMI in internet nice to drink that water

what about Bakuriani Borjomi mountains? do they look attractive for invaders?

 

[shtove]

Come on, Georgia!

Not much news in the press these days. I think most people are focusing on Ukraine.

You're in for a long haul, Lekso. But that's ok when you're with good people.

 

[alexrugby]

Again you my Irish friend
Well news are no more Red and Hot in my country as the military actions are stopped and despite Russians' long standing wish not to let Red Cross doctors in the conflict zone we made breakthrough and nowadays its peace in Georgia.
The only problems are the small army points left by Russians in Cities Poti Sachkhere and near Gori, these Russian guys poure more **** on their reputation as they're drunk till wasting everyday and run nude in streets.
NO USED TOILET SEATS ARE STOLEN IN THESE DAYS
Now EU and Georgia is waiting for the 8 Spetember when the last Russian must leave my country based on Signatures of Georgian French and Russian presidents.
So its peacing here,
What about the good people who helped me (and us respectively) the list can be Proudly started from YOU and other TRF Members.

Here are cities of Russian occupation seen on this map, cities are: Tskhinvali, Sukhumi, Zugdidi, Gori (nearby), Poti,

 

[Prestwick]

I stand corrected on the mineral water!

Hang in there mate, we're behind you (even if our cowardly 'leaders' hesitate)...

 

[alexrugby]

Thanks brother, its gettin' better now as the bullets and barrels are tied up

Friends you are, and suppoert me too.

TRF is amazing place

(leaders, they always speak and young die)

Its strongly a rugby thing to support and stand together

 

[alexrugby]

Today at 10:15 (Georgian Time)
Fire was opened from the direction of the nearby Russian checkpoint at the Georgian Police checkpoint, located in the entrance of the village, Karateli, Gori District. As a result of this Georgian policeman, Kakha Tsotiashvili, was heavily injured in head and neck.
According to the Ministry of Internal Affairs, Tsotiashvili died when he was transferred to the hospital. The Georgian side did not open a back-fire.
According to the existing information, the fire was opened by Ossetian militants, who were not stopped by the so-called Russian peacekeepers.


For more insight follow the links:

http://sosgeorgia.org/

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7608468.stm