[June Tests 2018: 2nd Test] South Africa vs. England (16/06/2018)

[Big_Grumper]

I think it's probably a case of that guys like Mako and Itoje are so used to dominating at club level that when it doesn't happen for them at international level they get frustrated and allow their discipline to slip.

^^^^
This.

I think there is more going on psychologically than first thought. Taking the gruesome twosome (Maro & Mako) as an example. They've been thrust into the limelight on the back of decent club form - form where their club has dominated. They've enjoyed almost instant success and been lauded as some of the best in their respective positions. A long international winning streak has followed, together with a injury or two and a relative dip in club form. Now their individual form has suffered and all they've got is frustration, EJ's harsh training methods and the weight of expectation on their shoulders. Combine that with the debate as to whether they're "undroppable" and you end up with a 'headfuck'.

My point is that sports psychology plays a massive part these days. M&M are still young guys and perhaps they'd benefit from a visit to the head doctor as much as a kick up the arse.

 

[Big_Grumper]

I think it's probably a case of that guys like Mako and Itoje are so used to dominating at club level that when it doesn't happen for them at international level they get frustrated and allow their discipline to slip.

^^^^
This.

I think there is more going on psychologically than first thought. Taking the gruesome twosome (Maro & Mako) as an example they've been thrust into the limelight on the back of decent club form - form where their club has dominated. They've enjoyed almost instant success and been lauded as some of the best in their respective positions. A long international winning streak has followed, together with a injury or two and a relative dip in club form. Now their individual form has suffered and all they've got is frustration, EJ's harsh training methods and the weight of expectation on their shoulders. Combine that with the debate as to whether they're "undroppable" and you end up with a 'headfuck'.

My point is that sports psychology plays a massive part these days. M&M are still young guys and perhaps they'd benefit from a visit to the head doctor as much as a kick up the arse.

 

[Nudger]

Sinckler isn't a starter.
Slade isn't international class.
Brown isn't a winger

Farrel isn't a centre

 

[Nudger]

Barritt's aggression and ability to get front foot ball would certainly help the forwards.

And he can tackle

 

[Nudger]

My team for next week.

Genge (if fit)
Cowan Dickie
Sinckler
Itoje
Launchbury
Shields
Wilson
Simmonds

Robson / Spencer
Cipriani
May
Farrell
Daly
Earle / Solomona
Woodward

Mix it up. Nothing to lose

Mako and geneg on the plane home

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

My point is that sports psychology plays a massive part these days. M&M are still young guys and perhaps they'd benefit from a visit to the head doctor as much as a kick up the arse.

Mako's not "young" in rugby terms, he's 27 with 50 caps.

I think what those 2, and others, need is a rest and some good man management. They get little of the former and my guess is probably not too much of the latter.

For anyone with confidence in Project Eddie it could be time to open your wallet. I've seen us at 8/1. We were 7/2 when the draw was made.

 

[Big_Grumper]

Mako's not "young" in rugby terms, he's 27 with 50 caps.

Fair point. Perhaps I ought to have said "immature".

 

[All Black]

Geez I thought England was a force. Not so long ago they were beating everybody and was even calling us out!

It looks like the Boks are back. The old rivalry might be back on this year between the Boks and us.

 

[Scotty]

So obviously a fail and to be 12 - 0 up and not score again is disappointing. Not sure if its a lack of leadership, aggression or accuracy but something needs to change. I think next week dont need wholesale changes just tweeks but then bench needs to be properly balanced, no hughes and still no robshaw. 19 20. Iseikwe Simmonds. Watched ghe game in a busy pub so didnt really get to analyse how players got on.

How are we rating daly at FB? Is he holding up and looking a real option?

Is billy back to his best?

Do we need to start iseikwe amd but itoje to the bench for an impact and because of penalty count?

I want LCD and williams starting next week, george and sinkler make so much bettet impact players.

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

So obviously a fail and to be 12 - 0 up and not score again is disappointing. Not sure if its a lack of leadership, aggression or accuracy but something needs to change. I think next week dont need wholesale changes just tweeks but then bench needs to be properly balanced, no hughes and still no robshaw. 19 20. Iseikwe Simmonds. Watched ghe game in a busy pub so didnt really get to analyse how players got on.

How are we rating daly at FB? Is he holding up and looking a real option?

Is billy back to his best?

Do we need to start iseikwe amd but itoje to the bench for an impact and because of penalty count?

I want LCD and williams starting next week, george and sinkler make so much bettet impact players.

No
No
Yes
Yes

 

[FLOBALOB]

Mako's not "young" in rugby terms, he's 27 with 50 caps.

I think what those 2, and others, need is a rest and some good man management. They get little of the former and my guess is probably not too much of the latter.

For anyone with confidence in Project Eddie it could be time to open your wallet. I've seen us at 8/1. We were 7/2 when the draw was made.

Where are England 8/1 ? Biggest i can find is 13/2.
I'd want at least 12s before even considering it.

 

[saulan]

Marler and Brown clash with fans after loss:
https://m.sport24.co.za/Rugby/Sprin...at-marred-by-post-test-row-with-fans-20180617

Somethings definitely not right with the attitude of the English players. Farrell was doing a lot of complaining to the ref during the game, which is fine to an extent as the captain, but trying to do a sneaky conversion on a non-try when it's being referred to TMO and arguing no you can't do that I've taken the kick, shouting you said play on when a penalty for offside is blown (play on being called after the player has done the wrong thing then being picked up by assistants) and also the irony of him saying we are trying to have a game of rugby here when a scuffle breaks out when it was shortly preceded by the ball being thrown at Vermuelens head and the hand in face of PSDT. Not really setting the best example for the rest of the team.

Then you have the interview situation, I get it, you are upset you lost, but it's part of international rugby these days to have post match interviews, it reflects poorly on the team. And then finally this incident with the fans (I'm interested in whether it's SA fans or English fans). I'm not condoning the actions of the fans because I am sure they are the ones that instigated this with some sort of comment from the crowd, but as an international you should be able to ignore it and walk off and not engage the idiots in the stands. Looks at the form of abuse the football players in England face every time they give a throw in or corner at a rivals ground. They block it out and get on with things.

I think the English team needs a mental coach or sports psychologist in their employment to work on that (worked for SA the last time we won a World Cup I think). If you have one, fire them and get a new one.

Anyway, sorry to have missed all the banter last night. Turned on to the game at 4:55pm and then got load shed at exactly 5pm, so had to watch the game on my phone, limiting my ability to message here. (Load shedding, to those who don't have third world problems, is when power is cut in certain areas to manage the demand for our sometimes constrained electricity supply)

 

[Scotty]

No
No
Yes
Yes

To what extent is daly not holding up? Would be unsure about watson may and daly as back 3? Deffinatly very attacking back 3 if we get the ball to them.

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

To what extent is daly not holding up? Would be unsure about watson may and daly as back 3? Deffinatly very attacking back 3 if we get the ball to them.

I think we should persist with it, but one game doesn't prove he is international class there. Still reserving genuine judgement

 

[Pom in Exile]

I just wrote an overly long, incoherent and verbose essay on my thoughts about this game, the series, Eddie Jones and the state of English rugby however unfortunately after about 45 minutes of typing my iPad **** itself and reloaded the page, I can only apologise that you've all not got the chance to read my striking analysis filled with biting wit and a detailed roadmap of where England should be heading.
#lostmasterpiece

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

At least we're not Scotland

 

[Pom in Exile]

FWIW, here is my 23 for the final game, forgive my flights of fancy.

Marler
LCD
Williams
Launchbury
Attwood
Ewers
Armand
Morgan
Spencer
Cipriani
Solomona
Farrell
Daly
May
Brown

George
Hepburn
Sinckler
Itoje
Wilson, Curry, Shields, Simmonds (whoever pulls up trees in training this week)
Youngs
Loz
Earle

I'd love to see us compete up front and see Daly given a chance in his best position...it's frankly fubar that he hasn't played there for England yet.

 

[Maverick1987]

Tbh I'm not even sure what's going on !

I'm not even sure it's a playing personnel problem....

The only things I'd say is why have we come away from our Starter/Finisher set up that served us so well at the start of Eddies tenure ? and why has our discipline just disappeared ?

That being said I'd make a few changes for next week .....
I'd go
1. Marler
2. George
3. Williams
4. Launchbury
5. Hill
6. Shields
7. Curry
8. Vunipola
9. Robson or Spencer I'm easy either way
10. Cipriani
11. Daly
12. Farrell
13. Slade
14. May
15. Brown
16. LCD
17. Hepburn
18. Sinkler
19. Itoje
20. Simmonds
21. Mark Wilson
22. Robson or Spencer
23. Solomona ? (Not fussed but there isn't much choice in this squad)

6/2 split on the bench just seems right to me when we are getting so badly stuffed up front .... might keep it a bit fresher

 

[curtbob7]

Not available for selection:
Danny Care (Harlequins)
Jack Clifford (Harlequins)
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)
Tom Dunn (Bath Rugby)
Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby)
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
James Haskell (Wasps)
Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby)
George Kruis (Saracens)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)
Alex Lewington (London Irish)
Harry Mallinder (Northampton Saints)
Joe Marchant (Harlequins)
Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs)
Beno Obano (Bath Rugby)
Cameron Redpath (Sale Sharks)
Semesa Rokoduguni (Bath Rugby)
Will Spencer (Worcester Warriors)
Ben Te'o (Worcester Warriors)
Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers)
Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby)
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby)
Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens)
Jack Willis (Wasps)

I make that 10 of the 23 or close to 23 that would probably make a difference but still on paper we should not be chucking games away like that.

 

[Pom in Exile]

Binny's broken his arm again.