Nation

[wigan_rlfc]

Oh I know plenty about history mate.

 

[Prestwick]

<div class='quotemain'>
but that there must eventually be arrangements for the handover of Northern Ireland.


[/b]

Handover to who. Nobody wants it. If Northern Ireland was to leave the Union then it would end up an indedependant state. As far as I know no other countries can legally claim Northern Ireland apart from the UK and no other coutries do.
[/b][/quote]

Ah yes but we ourselves do not have a water tight claim as it stems from the original plantations in Elizabeth I and James I's reigns.

But still, we must give it back, either to Ireland or themselves. We've spent too much time with something which patently isn't ours and was only ours in the first place because we aggressively colonised it and then cordoned it off from the rest of Ireland in partion.

One of the more frustrating aspects of Northern Ireland is the way in which time and time again the hysterical whining from the Ulster Unionists has played British governments (from Disreali to Callaghan) for fools. Multiple times they led successive governments up and down the garden path.

Let us be blunt here. There is the perception that the British Government egged on or knowingly colluded deliberately over the course of the last fifty years with the Ulster Unionists, like that of a moustche twizzling, monocole wearing bad guy attaching a virgin to the train tracks. The reality is that a Government, filled to the brim with liberal idealists who had thought that all this business with Ireland had been settled years ago with partition were patently out of their depth.

The fact is that deliberate acts of collusion only happen with governments who are in touch with the history and situation on the ground and have a grip on events and had a sense of depth for the occasion. For Harold Wilson, Edward Heath and James Callaghan, they could not be any more out of their depth than if they tried.

Uninformed about the history and real politik of Ulster, they allowed themselves shamefully to be led by hand by the Ulster Unionists into some of the most catastrophic fiascos of Ulster. It is only now that relations have finally normalised but it is the fact that Ulster had lost roughly half a century is indicative at the failed policy from London, the impotent hand wringing from Dublin and the desire from both the hardliners in the IRA and the Unionis Paramilitaries to see blood run in the streets of Belfast. The British Army, while being the stars of the more high profile infamous events of Ulster, were a mere sideshow, having to hold the ring while spooks from MI5 and the now infamous "Force Research Unit" skulked in the shadows and betrayed the trust of the average squaddie on patrol.

It is a tragic comedy of errors I am afraid. Eventually however, we must give power back to Ulster and let them continue on their own, we have done enough damage and caused enough trouble there as it is. Dublin has had its fair share of blame, recognises this and treats Ulster with kid gloves, choosing instead to gang up on Sinn Fein (quite rightly) with Fianna Fail and the other parties pointing out that Sinn Fein is connected with an organisation linked with drugs running, prostitution, illeigal gambling and enough stuff to give the Feds in the USA enough evidence for a truck load of RICO indictments.

 

[shtove]

Norway are fine outside the EU, because they've got North Sea oil - note: it wasn't squandered and is an increasingly valuable fall-back. Switzerland are fine as they are, because they're in the geographical heart of the world's biggest market and their highly admired democracy approves of the most twisted scam of all: full banking secrecy. But the Germans still own them.

The biggest conundrum for the UK is the euro, which is likely to overtake the dollar as the world's reserve currency as the oil producing states gradually stick two fingers up to the US. That'll mean more wars in the middle-east, but also the ability of the US to bankroll its armed forces will decline.

As part of the UK, Scotland will only enjoy the benefit of the euro when their English neighbours have felt the full pain of maintaining the overvalued pound and decide to make the switch - could take ten years. Scotland would avoid all that by applying for membership of the euro as an independent state. It would also have to wean itself off welfare culture to meet the entry criteria, but that's desirable in itself. Same goes for Norn Irn.

Flag waving and anthems are strictly for sport. This is about economics: market access, plus market protections. The US has already fired off a few shots against China, and now is the time to head for the high ground BEFORE the dollar dam breaks.

 

[Prestwick]

Norway are fine outside the EU, because they've got North Sea oil - note: it wasn't squandered and is an increasingly valuable fall-back. Switzerland are fine as they are, because they're in the geographical heart of the world's biggest market and their highly admired democracy approves of the most twisted scam of all: full banking secrecy. But the Germans still own them.

The biggest conundrum for the UK is the euro, which is likely to overtake the dollar as the world's reserve currency as the oil producing states gradually stick two fingers up to the US. That'll mean more wars in the middle-east, but also the ability of the US to bankroll its armed forces will decline.

As part of the UK, Scotland will only enjoy the benefit of the euro when their English neighbours have felt the full pain of maintaining the overvalued pound and decide to make the switch - could take ten years. Scotland would avoid all that by applying for membership of the euro as an independent state. It would also have to wean itself off welfare culture to meet the entry criteria, but that's desirable in itself. Same goes for Norn Irn.

Flag waving and anthems are strictly for sport. This is about economics: market access, plus market protections. The US has already fired off a few shots against China, and now is the time to head for the high ground BEFORE the dollar dam breaks.
[/b]

The major changes that need to be made to the British economy before joining a single currency lie in the that British banking works and how the British economy is powered largely by a booming housing market in which is run in an entirely different way to how it is done within the Eurozone. Everything from how estate agents work to how stamp duty, etc is levvied needs to be harmonised with the European way and to be honest, it cannot come too soon enough. The way the British housing market has exploded in the last 20 years has meant lasting instability in the British economy.

It would take 15 to 20 years for this to happen, the UK has one of the highest levels of personal debt in the world. A switch to the Euro now could bankrupt most of the population and cause one of the biggest house market crashes in history. However, by 2020? I think it would be easily possible and not just by a direct switch. For example, the pound could eventually be pegged first to the Euro by 2012 or 2015.

Two demands would need to be met. First, the Euro notes need to be made from a paper other than the monopoly style of paper they are printed on now, and for the love of god have something printed on them that is actually real like European Landmarks instead of random bridges or aqueducts. It just looks phoney and silly.

One of the biggest mistakes which the UK has repeated has been the way it has squandered the money from Oil and Gas. In Norway during election time, they debate on how much of the interest they earn from the hundreds of billions earnt from Oil (which is saved away) should be spent or how much of it should be saved! On the flipside, they also are a highly taxed country as to put as little pressure on their Oil money as possible. It is a very highly sustainable system and one which we failed to capitalise on completely.

 

[shtove]

Dunno know about harmonising housing markets.

Ireland and Spain are in the euro, but they've both had silly-billy housing booms over the last 15 and 10 years. I think it's just down to the willingness of banks to lend and lend and lend. Germany has had relatively little house price inflation since 95, but France has been sort of in the middle - plenty of lending, but strict rules against the kind of crazy subprime stuff that was allowed free rein in the US.

English newspapers will always criticise the EU, for various reasons - the Guardian is full of protectionist crap, the Mail is the home of straight banana stories - but when the EU is proved right the flow doesn't reverse. The ECB always gets it in the neck for being a brake on growth - but even now, when people are realising that Greenspan was a charlatan in charge of the American Fed, there's no admission that the ECB's 'careful now' policies have been, and always will be, just what you want from the civil servants in charge.

Critics of the euro always point to the one-size-fits-all model as a reason for the UK staying out. But that criticism applies to all currencies, even the pound. Eddie George admitted that the BoE deliberately ramped up consumer spending after the dot.com bust by reducing interest rates, which then super-charged the housing boom - how'zat for one size fits all coming at the expense of savers and prudent borrowers? How do you keep up when all these nutters are scurrying about with outlandish loan approvals for a load of Buy-to-Lets that will be foreclosed within two years? Help!!!!!!!!

 

[Prestwick]

I prefer to take The Economists view that over regulation from the European Union as well as the clash of greater harmonisation on policy against that of the fact that the EU is a dog eat dog world where every member state is rabidly trying to get the best deal for themselves hampers economic performance.

The ECB can hardly be blamed if it is the victim of vicious political bickering from their overlords in Paris, Rome and Berlin over everything from who should be the head to what exactly counts as a "breach of the stability pact."

Help indeed, Europe is at a cross roads. The British press is hysterical in some respects but buried beneath the stories of straight bananas and the banning of Guest ales in pubs lie the real meat of the EU which is a continuing battle between free marketeers in search of just a free trade zone and those who wish to eventually form a United States of Europe. Neither will win of course, hence the muddled status quo.

 

[shtove]

Yeah, it's always been that way - but they still keep going forward. For all the talk about democratic deficits and pernicious cabals, the Brussells bureaucracy works more efficiently than the national versions. It takes more than Private Eye paranoia about a single justice system to bring it screeching to a halt.

But the Constitution is back on the table because the Germans want it - and I think they're going to get this time, and sod the voters (who insist on reading newspapers and then pretending they know what's going on).

 

[Prestwick]

Not in a French electoral year they won't. None of the leading Presidential candidates are willing to risk votes by endorsing or rejecting renewed attempts to revive the constitution. Royal and Sarcozy are playing it safe and that will keep the damn thing dead for another year at least.

The core coponents of the constitution will be revived eventually, just not on Germany's year as leader of the EU.

 

[redunderthebed]

Do what we did with Western Australia if Wales or Scotland etc try to leave ignore the result and make them apart of the federation all the same. :bleh!:


In all seriousness if Scotland Wales etc want to leave they should be able to self-determination is a inalienable right.

 

[Prestwick]

Yes we're not arguing about whether we should give the Scots or Welsh the right to hold refferenda, what we're saying is that we should do eveything in our legally held powers to pursuade the people of Scotland and Wales that we are better off working together than farting about on our own. The major conglomerates of continental Europe, America, China and India don't give a flying **** about ancient Scottish or Welsh tradition when they consider investment so it is better to preserve a federal union where each nation has their own national identity preserved and yet has the diplomatic and economic muscle to compete on the world stage as the 4th largest (national) economy on the planet.

(note, California doesn't count because it isn't a nation)

 

[Rugby_Cymru]

...what we're saying is that we should do eveything in our legally held powers to pursuade the people of Scotland and Wales that we are better off working together than farting about on our own.
[/b]

I agree with that. It's a working system, why mess with it.
It's not affecting our identity.

 

[Prestwick]

Yeah, on a slight caveat I must stress I was very drunk when I wrote that post there.

 

[St Helens RLFC]

This is a fabulous thread.

For what it's worth, I am English. I don't consider myself British. I unite at times of need (Rugby League internationals) but I do not acknowledge the Irish within me (I am 25% Irish) as I was born and bred in England. I don't wish anything bad on the Scots, the Welsh and the Irish, they are their own nation and they have a right to their own identity.

I however, am 100% English.

 

[eoino]

Give it back to whom exactly, I don't recall it ever being a part of the Republic of Ireland. Northren Ireland has been in the UK since 1801, the free state/republic has only been around since the 1920's.

The UK, 4 countries - One Nation.....Forever.
[/b]

You invaded our land, killed our people, and now you still control part of Ireland that never was your to begin with. The native Irish people owned this land. The native Irish people want it back.
You see politicly, the Republic never owned the North, neither the Free State. But if you did know your history, you would know that the british controled the Pale (Dublin) for years and claimed to rule the whole of Ireland. Anyway years later when the Army was finding it hard in Ireland, there was the plantation. People from Scotland and England were given free land in the North, and so developed into Unionism, kicking the local native Irish off their land. Yes, THEIR native Irish land. Ireland is one island, our island, why do you think the IRA fought for? It makes geographic sence to give our land back and let us reunite our country which you devided.

 

[getofmeland]

Give it back to whom exactly, I don't recall it ever being a part of the Republic of Ireland. Northren Ireland has been in the UK since 1801, the free state/republic has only been around since the 1920's.

The UK, 4 countries - One Nation.....Forever.
[/b]

You invaded our land, killed our people, and now you still control part of Ireland that never was your to begin with. The native Irish people owned this land. The native Irish people want it back.
You see politicly, the Republic never owned the North, neither the Free State. But if you did know your history, you would know that the british controled the Pale (Dublin) for years and claimed to rule the whole of Ireland. Anyway years later when the Army was finding it hard in Ireland, there was the plantation. People from Scotland and England were given free land in the North, and so developed into Unionism, kicking the local native Irish off their land. Yes, THEIR native Irish land. Ireland is one island, our island, why do you think the IRA fought for? It makes geographic sence to give our land back and let us reunite our country which you devided. [/b]

Oh please do shut up...

I honestly don't see the problem... It is how it is and unless the Governments can come up with an agreement then its going to stay that way!!!

 

[O'Rothlain]

Flag waving and anthems are strictly for sport. This is about economics: market access, plus market protections. The US has already fired off a few shots against China, and now is the time to head for the high ground BEFORE the dollar dam breaks.
[/b]

Yeah...we're f___ed. When the Euro was introduced 1 Euro = .90 USD, then after around half a year it jumped to 1 Euro = 1.32 USD. It has changed very little since. I work in a business where we import (a tremendous amount from Italy...marble and granites) and it's greatly affected us.
We (America) can no longer claim to be the world superpower when the EU's currency and the currency of the UK are stronger (1 GBP = 1.80 USD...ouch!).

Whatever, agreement the N.Irish come to, this is true: Northern Ireland is not part of England. Even if we look at the island of Ireland historically, we see the 4 (proud) Provinces. Let Uslter be Ulster if that's what they wish. Who knows with the politics there if they could even govern themselves. That's not a shot at the people, but the Political Parties. The only thing I can see is that it's a big f___ing mess that was started a long time ago. Britain can't solve it. People have to move past placing blame and just live together.

 

[el_tk]

You invaded our land, killed our people, and now you still control part of Ireland that never was your to begin with. The native Irish people owned this land. The native Irish people want it back.
You see politicly, the Republic never owned the North, neither the Free State. But if you did know your history, you would know that the british controled the Pale (Dublin) for years and claimed to rule the whole of Ireland. Anyway years later when the Army was finding it hard in Ireland, there was the plantation. People from Scotland and England were given free land in the North, and so developed into Unionism, kicking the local native Irish off their land. Yes, THEIR native Irish land. Ireland is one island, our island, why do you think the IRA fought for? It makes geographic sence to give our land back and let us reunite our country which you divided.
[/b]

Bog off mate. These people came over for the plantations what? 400 years ago. They're as Irish as you or me now. They were given land all over Ireland, not just Ulster.
As far as my recollection of Junior Cert history goes the British controlled most of Ireland, they just didn't bother living outside the Pale and all the local Irish leaders didn't bother fighting (mostly) because they knew they'd get smashed (as they did up until 1919 when we started giving every terrorist group in the world the template for violence as a means of achieving your end despite having hugely inferior forces).

And as I see it, in the simplest terms, the majority of Northern Irish people want to remain part of the Union, therefore Northern Ireland should remain part of the union.

 

[Ashton]

Yes we're not arguing about whether we should give the Scots or Welsh the right to hold refferenda, what we're saying is that we should do eveything in our legally held powers to pursuade the people of Scotland and Wales that we are better off working together than farting about on our own. The major conglomerates of continental Europe, America, China and India don't give a flying **** about ancient Scottish or Welsh tradition when they consider investment so it is better to preserve a federal union where each nation has their own national identity preserved and yet has the diplomatic and economic muscle to compete on the world stage as the 4th largest (national) economy on the planet.

(note, California doesn't count because it isn't a nation)
[/b]

Dont mean to be picky but we're actually the 5th largest!

 

[getofmeland]

Well if the Scots love Scotland So Much, why are so many of the f***ers down here trying to run this country?

I put it this way if Scotland is so great why do some many retire down south of the border???

 

[Prestwick]

Dont mean to be picky but we're actually the 5th largest!
[/b]

CURSES! :%#%#: