Next All Black coach?

[Cooper]

To be honest, I'm not entirely confident in any of the options, as much as I like Joseph.

Last year I would have begged Joe myself to take the job. But now I don't see any obvious options. It's exciting, but also a bit concerning. We will need a good coach to be competitive with SA & England next RWC.

 

[TRF_heineken]

We appear to be going around in circles, which I put down to a language barrier. To try and progress thing and bring some clarity, you have explained the skills you feel that turning a tier 3 side into a tier 2 one demonstrates, but you haven't explained why this guarantees success with a teir 1 team, which to me was the crux of Zapphod's point.

Ah, because less time is spent on improving those skills, so more time is spent on other matters such as tactical analysis, defence co-ordination, set plays and so on. So in my view, a tier 3/2 nation would for example spend a Tuesday on tackling technique and rucking skills, and then repeat that on say, thursday when they do defensive coordination. Tier 1 teams would use that time for maybe other things as they don't need to train their players as much on developing a skillset. Does that make more sense?

 

[RedruthRFC]

Ah, because less time is spent on improving those skills, so more time is spent on other matters such as tactical analysis, defence co-ordination, set plays and so on. So in my view, a tier 3/2 nation would for example spend a Tuesday on tackling technique and rucking skills, and then repeat that on say, thursday when they do defensive coordination. Tier 1 teams would use that time for maybe other things as they don't need to train their players as much on developing a skillset. Does that make more sense?

Thanks. I get the point you're making now. I'm don't agree with it though, which comes back to the different expertise required. If a hypothetical coach turned the Netherlands for example into a decent ERC side, it would be through the sort of work that you describe. Now transplant that person in to the England setup (*). What's to say that they have the tactical nous not orchestrate the kind of performance that England produced on Saturday?

* apologies for the example, but it's the obvious one that comes to mind at the moment for some reason.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

I wouldn't say not to White but he is one of a number of successful foreign coaches we could look at although surprisingly I don't think Gatland is the answer.

I am not entirely convinced our next tier of coaches are up to it furthermore I am worried that our rugby while incredibly successful over the past 10 years has been surpassed but we don't seem to have the ability to come up with a new game, essentially I think we are heading down the path that our Sevens team has gone where Tietjens simply stayed too long.

I certainly believe Scott Robertson is the future coach of the All Blacks but I also think we need an experienced International coach in the short term to team him with.

I'd say they were Tier 1.5, some good results over tier 1 teams, also don't forget Joseph/brown/McLeod took the highlanders to the super rugby championship

Ian Foster with Jamie Joseph and Tony Brown as his assistants would be pretty solid, i think.

I doubt Joseph would go for an assistant role, head coach for a long time

 

[TRF_heineken]

Thanks. I get the point you're making now. I'm don't agree with it though, which comes back to the different expertise required. If a hypothetical coach turned the Netherlands for example into a decent ERC side, it would be through the sort of work that you describe. Now transplant that person in to the England setup (*). What's to say that they have the tactical nous not orchestrate the kind of performance that England produced on Saturday?

* apologies for the example, but it's the obvious one that comes to mind at the moment for some reason.

I get this reasoning too. But for me, the best coaches would always shine no matter which tier they coach, they might not always get the wins, due to the player quality and backing they have, but their rugby brains are what makes the team more successful.

The way I see it, if we would use your example, is that a top quality coach would be able to implement his strategy better and quicker in a tier 1 side like England, whereas there might be a few obstacles in his way with the Netherlands. That's not to say he would use different strategies, if he has a plan which he thinks will bring him positive results, he would try and implement them no matter the tier of the team. But how the team executes it is a different story.

For me it's more than just the single head coach, it's about the group he surrounds himself with in the coaching box, the medical staff, the dieticians, the players and the administrators.

Cheika for example didn't seem to have the backing of the administrators, and was in constant battles with them, while he did seem to have the backing of the players, but there was enough intrusion to make his team less successful than they were supposed to be.

 

[Zapphod]

By the sounds of it, Scott Robertson has thrown his hat into the ring...

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=12281359

 

[40/20]

By the sounds of it, Scott Robertson has thrown his hat into the ring...

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=12281359

Yea I think he expressed interest before WC kicked off as well.

The rumour of Foster having Schmidt lined up as one of his assistants is very interesting though.

He wasn't a popular choice even before the semi loss. But if he really does have Joe onboard and also gets Tony Brown involved... well that changes things a fair bit.

 

[Zapphod]

I would be a little disappointed if Schmidt did get on board, he apparently quit Ireland to spend more time with his family and has repeatedly said he wanted to take a break from coaching so for him to suddenly stick his hand up makes it all a little disingenuous.
If we expect our players to be "role models and pillars of the community" then we should expect the coaches to be as well.

However, I would be more than happy to see him in the coaching mix once he has taken his break.

 

[Cooper]

I would be a little disappointed if Schmidt did get on board, he apparently quit Ireland to spend more time with his family and has repeatedly said he wanted to take a break from coaching so for him to suddenly stick his hand up makes it all a little disingenuous.
If we expect our players to be "role models and pillars of the community" then we should expect the coaches to be as well.

However, I would be more than happy to see him in the coaching mix once he has taken his break.

Circumstances can change, maybe his private life is in a different state now.

Joe would be undeniably valuable to the set-up if he came in.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Circumstances can change, maybe his private life is in a different state now.

Joe would be undeniably valuable to the set-up if he came in.

It has, he was leaving Ireland to look after his mother in NZ after the world cup. She died before the tournament and he returned to Dublin. He said he wants 6 months or so off but is considering his options and that lines up well with taking an assistant coach role for NZ.

Joe got it wrong in his last 12 months here and we almost certainly overrate him because he's the only good coach we've ever had (even Gatland in his time here was raw and needed more time to develop) but his CV is mental:

11 - Heineken Cup
12 - H Cup
13 - Challenge Cup + Pro 12
14 - 6N, only loss in Twickenham, 2/2 in Argentina, win v SA
15 - 6N
16 - Beat NZ, SA and Aus in a calendar year
17 - 9/11 wins, record win v SA, Ended England's 18 win streak
18 - Grand Slam, Series win in Aus, NZ win.

He's the last guy I want in the NZ setup. If there's any criticism of them it's that they lack attention to detail against certain teams and can look rudderless when hit by surprise. With him at the helm they'll always have a gameplan and he won't be as restricted as he was with Ireland's slow distribution at 9, oftentimes poor hands at 12, and a non distributing 15.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

Rennie not out of the equation in some capacity.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/50257063

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Joseph does have form

He most certainly does. Twickenham 1993, Kyran Bracken springs to mind, filthy even by the standards of that era.

I don't know what he's done domestically, but while he's done well with Japan that's a massively different kettle of fish to the ABs and largely irrelevant.

 

[40/20]

Rennie not out of the equation in some capacity.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/50257063

Yep something similar was reported here today too.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=12281421

The rumour mill is definitely ramping up. That's one small silver lining of being kicked out early I guess... makes the off season chatter more interesting.

The reports of Robertson trying to get O'Gara back as an assistant is very interesting too. Maybe someone can correct me, but I dont recall a previous foreigner - especially a former player - being in that role for the team? I know Mick Byrne was part of the group as skills coach for a long time, but would O'Gara be a bit of a ground breaker?

I certainly wouldnt object to it. He made a massive impression at the Saders and I'm surprised Farrell didnt pick him up for the national team. Or was an offer turned down?

 

[Kiwiwomble]

He most certainly does. Twickenham 1993, Kyran Bracken springs to mind, filthy even by the standards of that era.

I don't know what he's done domestically, but while he's done well with Japan that's a massively different kettle of fish to the ABs and largely irrelevant.

would we say irrelevant? Joseph has done at least as much as EJ did with them , arguably more, unless you're saying setting up to the AB's is a bigger move than to England?

Jamie has coached the Maori All Blacks for 3 years, Wellington in the mitre 10 cup where they were runners up three years in a row, the highlanders in super rugby for seven years where he turned us from cellar dwellers to champions and continue to make the finals regularly

I think Razor is a great coach...but there is some truth in coaching the crusaders is one of the easiest gigs in rugby, even todd blackadder who people like to bag got them to two finals and every 4th's, i think he needs to go away to build a team, either turn an under dog or have to build an international team

 

[donmcdazzle]

He most certainly does. Twickenham 1993, Kyran Bracken springs to mind, filthy even by the standards of that era.

I don't know what he's done domestically, but while he's done well with Japan that's a massively different kettle of fish to the ABs and largely irrelevant.

Randomly, he played club rugby in Wellington as recently as about 2005. Played down the grades but was absolutely leveling dudes on defence. Hard nut to the end. Coached one of my mates in the Wellington academy, apparently a brutal coach who loved the physical contact.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

would we say irrelevant? Joseph has done at least as much as EJ did with them , arguably more, unless you're saying setting up to the AB's is a bigger move than to England?

I think undue weight went on Brighton when Jones got the England gig, but the difference is that he already had already successfully coached top tier 1 sides. Japan was the icing, not the cake.

I'm not saying Joseph isn't the right man, just not to put too much weight on what he's done with Japan. Managing in the Championship and Premier League require entirely different skill sets, Pep Guardiola didn't join Man City from Luton.

 

[ncurd]

that he already had already successfully coached top tier 1 sides.

Yup 2003 final, 2007 winner as an assistant coach. 2015 just showed he still had a lot give the sport and wasn't stuck in the past. He's gotten to the stage having coached another team the final that most international sides have to be mad to not want him.

Luckilly unless he patches up with Australian Rugby I can't see him going anywhere.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

Going to be very interesting if all three Barrett's keep getting picked by the new coach

 

[TheOvalBall]

Announcement probably early new year right ?

 

[Kiwiwomble]

Announcement probably early new year right ?

im not sure, I'd have hoped earlier as some of the contenders are currently super coaches so you'd want them to have time to replace