"No-Ruck" tactics

[munstermuffin]

Exactly.

I also imagine those who weren't aware of it before, are now going to spend about 10 minutes on Monday being told what they should do in that circumstance if it arises.

Thing is its extremely common is southern hemisphere. A few super rugby teams are using it regularly but mix it at times

 

[die_mole]

Exactly.

I also imagine those who weren't aware of it before, are now going to spend about 10 minutes on Monday being told what they should do in that circumstance if it arises.

i'm really surprised that so many people were unaware of it

50% of american high school teams use this tactic and pretty much every high level club team uses this as their primary sevens strategy

 

[ratsapprentice]

Thing is its extremely common is southern hemisphere. A few super rugby teams are using it regularly but mix it at times

I wouldn't say it's extremely common, but it's established enough that I'd be pretty sure every team is aware of it and has told their players what to do if it happens.

I haven't seen anyone other than the Chiefs do it.

 

[munstermuffin]

I wouldn't say it's extremely common, but it's established enough that I'd be pretty sure every team is aware of it and has told their players what to do if it happens.

I haven't seen anyone other than the Chiefs do it.

I've seen Brumbies, Reds and Tahs all use it. BG8 posted an article back there showing how Aus used it vs Ireland but also how smart Pocock is in club games that he pulls a guy in.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Fair enough.

 

[die_mole]

I've seen Brumbies, Reds and Tahs all use it. BG8 posted an article back there showing how Aus used it vs Ireland but also how smart Pocock is in club games that he pulls a guy in.

racing metro using it against clermont
https://youtu.be/7_5_C2fVnBI?t=2h12m58s

 

[Saint Matt]

Can't believe people are encouraging it personally. It's terrible to watch and as someone who plays, I'm worried that teams will be copying it next weekend. The ball is never going to go five yards wider than the ruck. You can't have a quick ruck every time and you can't pass the ball when there are guys stood in your line. Totally boring to watch.

There are ways around it but it isn't about that for me. We saw no rucks and we didn't see any free flowing rugby either and it poses the question of what exactly is the point of playing/watching the sport. I'd be changing the rules first thing in the morning for the good of the game because it was absolutely dire that this afternoon. I honestly think that Italy should be ashamed of themselves. They aren't good enough to win by playing rugby so they decide to just stop England playing and ruin the game for everyone. I'm glad we put the victims in their place in the second half and I include their coach in that as well.

I hope we don't see it again. I'll pack the sport in if it turns into a common thing, don't want to be associated with the sport if that's the way it's going. No rucks, no skill, just drive through the middle. Bloody disgraceful.

 

[corny]

what? the players are very much not offside, they just can't play the ball or the player playing the ball without coming through the gate... which is a law regarding the tackle

Funnily enough Dan Cole got away with this midway through the second half. The Italians had the ball at the base of a 'non ruck' and he just ran around the side jumping on the ball. Hadn't a notion what the law was but it was hilarious he got away with it.

World Rugby have to do something about the law though. Theoretically you could just stand either side of the scrum half and force pick and go at every ruck (or non ruck). Pulling someone in to create the ruck (ala Pocock) runs the risk of giving up a penalty. Too messy and ****e to watch.

 

[die_mole]

Funnily enough Dan Cole got away with this midway through the second half. The Italians had the ball at the base of a 'non ruck' and he just ran around the side jumping on the ball. Hadn't a notion what the law was but it was hilarious he got away with it.

World Rugby have to do something about the law though. Theoretically you could just stand either side of the scrum half and force pick and go at every ruck (or non ruck). Pulling someone in to create the ruck (ala Pocock) runs the risk of giving up a penalty. Too messy and ****e to watch.

well that should have been a penalty since he wasn't the tackler... additionally he didn't stay on his feet which you have to at the tackle

i'm fine with a change as long as the offsides line isn't created at the tackle... i think if a quick pass is made from the tackled player any retreating defenders should have a chance to make the tackle

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Can't believe people are encouraging it personally. It's terrible to watch and as someone who plays, I'm worried that teams will be copying it next weekend. The ball is never going to go five yards wider than the ruck. You can't have a quick ruck every time and you can't pass the ball when there are guys stood in your line. Totally boring to watch.

There are ways around it but it isn't about that for me. We saw no rucks and we didn't see any free flowing rugby either and it poses the question of what exactly is the point of playing/watching the sport. I'd be changing the rules first thing in the morning for the good of the game because it was absolutely dire that this afternoon. I honestly think that Italy should be ashamed of themselves. They aren't good enough to win by playing rugby so they decide to just stop England playing and ruin the game for everyone. I'm glad we put the victims in their place in the second half and I include their coach in that as well.

I hope we don't see it again. I'll pack the sport in if it turns into a common thing, don't want to be associated with the sport if that's the way it's going. No rucks, no skill, just drive through the middle. Bloody disgraceful.

dude it happens 6 or 7 times every game, including the games you play in

 

[Zed]

It's a defensive strategy that when it works is highly effective, but the team defending needs to be spot on. If they don't get it right, they'll be made to pay for it, whereas a more organised and structured defensive line can afford to make a few mistakes, a guy misses a tackler, there should be someone next to him to help out. Hence the reason this type of defence is often used only in the attackers 22.

$h!t tactics by Italy, but England were poor in not adapting their game play and this game really highlights the gulf between them and the All Blacks. England are a good team, but they often struggle to put away poor opposition. How many times have decent English sides, who have done well against SH teams, traveled up to Murrayfield and lost to a poor Scottish side who have just had 50 points put on them by Australia or the All Blacks. They have the capability of becoming the best team in the world, but I don't think they have the players yet. I don't think the 10, 12 combination is right, Brown needs to go and I'm not sure about Joseph. I think for him, he'd be better playing outside a different 12. I think Tuilagi and Joseph could be an awesome partnership.

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racing metro using it against clermont
https://youtu.be/7_5_C2fVnBI?t=2h12m58s

Just looking at the huge holes and dog leg created in the defensive line, you can see why this is a tactic that would not work if employed on a regular basis.

 

[die_mole]

Yup, only useful as a surprise.

 

[munstermuffin]

Thing is noone is encouraging it just saying it's smart. England were just awful for not realising it and exploiting it.

 

[Goodey]

I watched the game late and I am kind of floored by the difference between the reaction and what actually happened.

My first impression from player, coach and pundit comments was that Italy successfully disrupted England thanks to this tactic and, were it not for a late collapse, nearly beat them with it. Not just Jones having a bluster and fans excited to see England struggle either. O'Shea: "Everything we did was completely legal; I was incredibly proud of what the players put out there."

Then I watched the game and this isn't close to what happened. Firstly, England ran in six tries, more than they scored against Italy last year and twice as many as Wales scored against them earlier this year. That is a shellacking and there is no reason for O'Shea to be proud of his side's defence that continues to ship as many tries as the side facing them can construct.

It's true that Italy led at half time and that is because England played badly regardless of what was put in front of them. Italy didn't stop England scoring, England did. Throughout the first 20 minutes England's shoddy kicking and handling left them scoreless, and the very first mention of the no-ruck tactic on commentary happens after 22 minutes. Shortly afterwards Hartley and Haskell have that conversation with Poite, and England score three tries in the next 20 minutes, and would have had a fourth had May not dropped it. That butchered try is actually the video currently stickied on reddit to show everyone what Italy's tactics were and it shows them getting beaten.

ESPN headline right now - "Italy silence doubters with ruckless riddle". The article is full of praise for a defence that was fortunate to only let through six tries. Guardian article on the same topic - "England caught cold by Italian rules of engagement" and claiming "it worked a treat." The last time England haven't conceded six tries in a match was the SA tour in 2007. Guardian writers on that day - "In 101 years of fixtures with the Boks, weakened team or not, there has never been a hiding on this scale. With injury and illness also stalking the squad, there is a case for halting the tour on humanitarian grounds. Even the locals are starting to sympathise, comparing the occasion to watching a little old lady being mugged of her pension money." It's baffling.

I don't really care for the supposed breaking of the spirit of the laws idea, or it suddenly becoming the new thing for sides to pull off, because on the evidence of this game it doesn't actually work. But I feel like the only one who noticed.

 

[McTallshort]

Yes it only worked in keeping the score respectable. Didn't stop the bonus point win

 

[Goodey]

I don't think it even did that though. 36-15 a) isn't a respectable score by the standards of every other team and b) is only as close as it is because England left points out there.

 

[munstermuffin]

I don't think it even did that though. 36-15 a) isn't a respectable score by the standards of every other team and b) is only as close as it is because England left points out there.

To be fair Italy left points too

 

[Goodey]

That's fine. The other difference from the last time Italy played at Twickenham was Campagnaro's great try. Improved defence, not so much. I still think people are giving this tactic far too much credit.

 

[ratsapprentice]

It wouldn't surprise me at all to see the SR sides try this out against the Lions.

 

[Yoshimitsu]

I was at the game....

That's fine. The other difference from the last time Italy played at Twickenham was Campagnaro's great try. Improved defence, not so much. I still think people are giving this tactic far too much credit.

Goodey, there's some truth in what you say. In the first 20 minutes regardless of what Italy were doing, England were abject. Poor handling, poor kicking, poor tackling, poor bloody everything. They were even getting beaten physically in contact. That said, the no ruck tactic was in place pretty early and even before the brains trust of Hartley and Haskell asked Poite to coach them there was unrest in the stands regarding "offside". I was up in the Gods in U30 and no amount "there's no offside line at a tackle and that's what that is" explanation would cut it up there..... Despite shouting myself hoarse it appears my exhortations to just play tight and hard i.e. pick and drive and inside pass didn't make it down to the pitch.

Also despite the confusion, Italy in the end were soundly beaten and flattered by the luck involved in a penalty ricochet and aided by George Ford's inability to complete a 1:1 tackle (despite the good things he brought in attack). Would they have fared worse if they'd played "properly"? Almost certainly. However, what also appeared to be evident is that once the "no ruck" had been established players were encroaching into the tackle area without sanction. Cole did it as did the Italian 9 on a number of occasions. Additionally at other times a ruck had formed (The Italians had a standing player bound in. but Poite (who had a decent game) had become so conditioned to the tactic that he allowed the Italians to wander way offside anyway. This frustrated and confused England further.

Clever by Italy, ultimately futile but still **** poor from England. I reckon Eddie would have been fuming at the ability to adapt. It's not all about physicality, some of it is about nous. I can't imagine any All Black team ever taking 30 odd minutes to work out what to do about a "no ruck" they'd have just flooded the space at the tackle until it was no longer used. Think about it, a forward coming from deep could be given a pop pass off the floor (no contest for the ball so free to do so) and go straight through the middle. If the tackler "the guy who formed the "non ruck" plays them, penalty for playing from the floor. England appear so over coached that despite clear evidence they weren't going to be allowed to go wide early they set up to do just that on EVERY SINGLE ****ING OCCASION. Only Launchbury seemed to have any idea about where to carry. Haskell was travelling out from the ruck and was easy meat as the Italians had precisely no one committed on the floor. Hughes the same.

Whilst I'm at it, I hear that Marler got some low marks from pundits. ********. He was fantastic in the tackle and without him making some 1:1s we'd have been further off the pace at 1/2 time.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Whilst I'm at it, I hear that Marler got some low marks from pundits. ********. He was fantastic in the tackle and without him making some 1:1s we'd have been further off the pace at 1/2 time.

He's consistently under-appreciated.