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North vs South hemisphere

Don't Skip Leg Day

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After loads of discussion about what the difference is between the north and south leagues I'm interested to see what the main differences actually are rather than perceived differences.

So his is a plea to the stat masters out there .

Can someone (i would if I had a clue where to start) look at some premiership games and some super ruby games and see what differs in the stats.

Really keen to see what the actually differences are as I don't really get to watch much super rugby.
 
Super rugby is played at a faster pace with regards to meters covered per minute by each player, it's on a similar level to the Euro Champions cup on that front. Something like 80-85m a minute (international is usually around 80-100, AP I think 65-70 but that I'm unsure of). That came from Shaun Edwards talking about it I believe, rather than any stats site.
 
What benefit would those stats be?

You can't use those stats as you can't compare it to other leagues if the teams don't play against each other.
@Raggs mentoined faster paced in Super Rugby, which is true, but then again, most of the Super Rugby games are played in dry conditions that allows a more free flowing game.

I don't think stats will give a conclusive answer...
 
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The Euro cup games are also often played over the winter, but reach the same meters covered. The weather can have an effect to passing, but this is meters run, in a high kicking game, the chase, the defensive line, the support, can all be running that little harder/faster, to up the meters per minute covered, it's not just ball in hand.
 
The differences between NH and SH rugby go a whole lot deeper than stats.

In the last few years, the perception has been that the NH plays a much more conservative, forward oriented game; moving from set piece to set piece, kicking for territory, slow ball at ruck time, lots of mauling and strong defensive lines. Players concentrate mostly on their core roles and very little outside. Meanwhile, SH holds a back oriented philosophy for the most part, playing expansive rugby, running the ball as much as possible and encouraging players in all positions to develop a wide range of attacking, defensive and ball skills. South Africa and Argentina have not been quite as adventurous when it comes to open running rugby as Australia and New Zealand, and their style has really been something of a compromise between the NH and SH styles.

However the NH forward oriented v SH back oriented hasn't always been the case. In the past, the All Blacks were known more for their uncompromising tough forward play, and playing 10 man rugby. Then the 1971 Lions toured New Zealand; they won all of the Provincial tour matches (19 of them) plus matches against NZ Universities and NZ Maori, and the beat the All Blacks for the first time in a series 2-1 (1 drawn). They did so using great back play and strong forward play. However, that changed over time, and IMO, the beginnings of that change coincide with the change to professionalism.

The way the game became professional in the NH and SH was totally different, but they both had one thing in common... they were trying to fight off the World Rugby Corporation (WRC) run by media mogul Kerry Packer, who had been responsible for the 50 over One Day Cricket and coloured clothing (known at the time as the Pyjama Game). I'm not going to go into the details here, but as I have done before, I recommend you get hold of a copy of a book called "The Rugby War" by former Wallaby Peter Fitzisimons.

[TEXTAREA]Bestselling author and Sydney Morning Herald journalist Peter FitzSimons takes us to the very heart of the battle which evolved from the continuing friction between the business empires of Rupert Murdoch and Kerry Packer. From the first wisps of smoke that appeared in a boardroom in Sydney, a War suddenly ignited around the world. Some of the game's greatest players, including the captains of Australia, New Zealand and South Africa, came to place their trust in a small group of men with an alternative vision to the establishment's - men who were backed by Kerry Packer. Peter FitzSimons details the consequences of this change, one of which would see the sport abandoning a commitment to amateurism which had survived more that 100 years. Bruising, bloodied and bitter, no one knew just how close the Rugby War came to having an entirely different result.[/TEXTAREA]

The upshot was that in the NH, the RFU and FFR, and to a lesser extent, the other Home Unions; organizations run by stuffy old gin-swilling blazers with Victorian mindsets, fought tooth and nail to try stop professionalism from infecting The Great Game. While they sat on their hands with their heads buried in the sand, in total denial and hoping it would all go away, the Clubs stepped in and the rest is history. The National Unions lost control of their players as they were all systematically contracted to privately owned clubs.

Meanwhile, in the SH, the National Unions knew that professionalism was coming, and that they were not going to be able to stop the tide, so the unions set about signing the players to ensure that Packer's WRC circus didn't get off the ground. To this end, the NZRU sent the councillor Jock Hobbs to front as a central, unifying figure to resolve the rift between the players and the Union. Many of New Zealand's top players were set to defect to the WRC, and it was considered in many quarters to be a done deal until Hobbs worked for over six weeks to secure the players' signatures for the NZRU. This earned him the label ; "the man who saved rugby".

IMO, the whole philosophy of rugby, and the way the game is run in the two hemispheres is part of the reason why they play the game so differently. In the NH, its Club oriented; for Clubs, survival is important, relegation is a financial disaster. Attitudes between Clubs and their National Unions are strained at the best of times, often antagonistic, and sometimes verge on hostile

In the SH, the elite competitions are are ring-fenced (no relegation) and are run by the National Unions who also own all the players contracts. The level of co-operation between franchise teams and the National Unions are much higher than in the NH, as they all work towards having the best National teams they can.
 
The differences between NH and SH rugby go a whole lot deeper than stats.

In the last few years, the perception has been that the NH plays a much more conservative, forward oriented game; moving from set piece to set piece, kicking for territory, slow ball at ruck time, lots of mauling and strong defensive lines. Players concentrate mostly on their core roles and very little outside. Meanwhile, SH holds a back oriented philosophy for the most part, playing expansive rugby, running the ball as much as possible and encouraging players in all positions to develop a wide range of attacking, defensive and ball skills. South Africa and Argentina have not been quite as adventurous when it comes to open running rugby as Australia and New Zealand, and their style has really been something of a compromise between the NH and SH styles.

However the NH forward oriented v SH back oriented hasn't always been the case. In the past, the All Blacks were known more for their uncompromising tough forward play, and playing 10 man rugby. Then the 1971 Lions toured New Zealand; they won all of the Provincial tour matches (19 of them) plus matches against NZ Universities and NZ Maori, and the beat the All Blacks for the first time in a series 2-1 (1 drawn). They did so using great back play and strong forward play. However, that changed over time, and IMO, the beginnings of that change coincide with the change to professionalism.

The way the game became professional in the NH and SH was totally different, but they both had one thing in common... they were trying to fight off the World Rugby Corporation (WRC) run by media mogul Kerry Packer, who had been responsible for the 50 over One Day Cricket and coloured clothing (known at the time as the Pyjama Game). I'm not going to go into the details here, but as I have done before, I recommend you get hold of a copy of a book called "The Rugby War" by former Wallaby Peter Fitzisimons.

[TEXTAREA]Bestselling author and Sydney Morning Herald journalist Peter FitzSimons takes us to the very heart of the battle which evolved from the continuing friction between the business empires of Rupert Murdoch and Kerry Packer. From the first wisps of smoke that appeared in a boardroom in Sydney, a War suddenly ignited around the world. Some of the game's greatest players, including the captains of Australia, New Zealand and South Africa, came to place their trust in a small group of men with an alternative vision to the establishment's - men who were backed by Kerry Packer. Peter FitzSimons details the consequences of this change, one of which would see the sport abandoning a commitment to amateurism which had survived more that 100 years. Bruising, bloodied and bitter, no one knew just how close the Rugby War came to having an entirely different result.[/TEXTAREA]

The upshot was that in the NH, the RFU and FFR, and to a lesser extent, the other Home Unions; organizations run by stuffy old gin-swilling blazers with Victorian mindsets, fought tooth and nail to try stop professionalism from infecting The Great Game. While they sat on their hands with their heads buried in the sand, in total denial and hoping it would all go away, the Clubs stepped in and the rest is history. The National Unions lost control of their players as they were all systematically contracted to privately owned clubs.

Meanwhile, in the SH, the National Unions knew that professionalism was coming, and that they were not going to be able to stop the tide, so the unions set about signing the players to ensure that Packer's WRC circus didn't get off the ground. To this end, the NZRU sent the councillor Jock Hobbs to front as a central, unifying figure to resolve the rift between the players and the Union. Many of New Zealand's top players were set to defect to the WRC, and it was considered in many quarters to be a done deal until Hobbs worked for over six weeks to secure the players' signatures for the NZRU. This earned him the label ; "the man who saved rugby".

IMO, the whole philosophy of rugby, and the way the game is run in the two hemispheres is part of the reason why they play the game so differently. In the NH, its Club oriented; for Clubs, survival is important, relegation is a financial disaster. Attitudes between Clubs and their National Unions are strained at the best of times, often antagonistic, and sometimes verge on hostile

In the SH, the elite competitions are are ring-fenced (no relegation) and are run by the National Unions who also own all the players contracts. The level of co-operation between franchise teams and the National Unions are much higher than in the NH, as they all work towards having the best National teams they can.

Exactly that.....Goodness an outbreak of sanity on the Forum! Whatever next?!!
 
Think it was Dudley Wright that oversaw the complete debacle of English rugby turning professional. Like cooky said, had his head utterly up his own backside. Was in utter denial and was happy to see the English game completely disappear as long as it stayed amateur. It's to the credit of the private club owners that we have a pro game at all and there are some people who blame them whenever the England team fails. Crazy
 
The differences between NH and SH rugby go a whole lot deeper than stats.

In the last few years, the perception has been that the NH plays a much more conservative, forward oriented game; moving from set piece to set piece, kicking for territory, slow ball at ruck time, lots of mauling and strong defensive lines. Players concentrate mostly on their core roles and very little outside. Meanwhile, SH holds a back oriented philosophy for the most part, playing expansive rugby, running the ball as much as possible and encouraging players in all positions to develop a wide range of attacking, defensive and ball skills. South Africa and Argentina have not been quite as adventurous when it comes to open running rugby as Australia and New Zealand, and their style has really been something of a compromise between the NH and SH styles.

However the NH forward oriented v SH back oriented hasn't always been the case. In the past, the All Blacks were known more for their uncompromising tough forward play, and playing 10 man rugby. Then the 1971 Lions toured New Zealand; they won all of the Provincial tour matches (19 of them) plus matches against NZ Universities and NZ Maori, and the beat the All Blacks for the first time in a series 2-1 (1 drawn). They did so using great back play and strong forward play. However, that changed over time, and IMO, the beginnings of that change coincide with the change to professionalism.

The way the game became professional in the NH and SH was totally different, but they both had one thing in common... they were trying to fight off the World Rugby Corporation (WRC) run by media mogul Kerry Packer, who had been responsible for the 50 over One Day Cricket and coloured clothing (known at the time as the Pyjama Game). I'm not going to go into the details here, but as I have done before, I recommend you get hold of a copy of a book called "The Rugby War" by former Wallaby Peter Fitzisimons.

[TEXTAREA]Bestselling author and Sydney Morning Herald journalist Peter FitzSimons takes us to the very heart of the battle which evolved from the continuing friction between the business empires of Rupert Murdoch and Kerry Packer. From the first wisps of smoke that appeared in a boardroom in Sydney, a War suddenly ignited around the world. Some of the game's greatest players, including the captains of Australia, New Zealand and South Africa, came to place their trust in a small group of men with an alternative vision to the establishment's - men who were backed by Kerry Packer. Peter FitzSimons details the consequences of this change, one of which would see the sport abandoning a commitment to amateurism which had survived more that 100 years. Bruising, bloodied and bitter, no one knew just how close the Rugby War came to having an entirely different result.[/TEXTAREA]

The upshot was that in the NH, the RFU and FFR, and to a lesser extent, the other Home Unions; organizations run by stuffy old gin-swilling blazers with Victorian mindsets, fought tooth and nail to try stop professionalism from infecting The Great Game. While they sat on their hands with their heads buried in the sand, in total denial and hoping it would all go away, the Clubs stepped in and the rest is history. The National Unions lost control of their players as they were all systematically contracted to privately owned clubs.

Meanwhile, in the SH, the National Unions knew that professionalism was coming, and that they were not going to be able to stop the tide, so the unions set about signing the players to ensure that Packer's WRC circus didn't get off the ground. To this end, the NZRU sent the councillor Jock Hobbs to front as a central, unifying figure to resolve the rift between the players and the Union. Many of New Zealand's top players were set to defect to the WRC, and it was considered in many quarters to be a done deal until Hobbs worked for over six weeks to secure the players' signatures for the NZRU. This earned him the label ; "the man who saved rugby".

IMO, the whole philosophy of rugby, and the way the game is run in the two hemispheres is part of the reason why they play the game so differently. In the NH, its Club oriented; for Clubs, survival is important, relegation is a financial disaster. Attitudes between Clubs and their National Unions are strained at the best of times, often antagonistic, and sometimes verge on hostile

In the SH, the elite competitions are are ring-fenced (no relegation) and are run by the National Unions who also own all the players contracts. The level of co-operation between franchise teams and the National Unions are much higher than in the NH, as they all work towards having the best National teams they can.

Good summation SC.

That said, while you may call the WRC a "circus" the hard nosed "f##k you if you don't like it because I'll just buy all your assets" attitude of Kerry Packer to the blazer brigade was something the Rugby community sorely needed and probably could have done with a lot earlier.

Whatever else you might say about him, ultimately his idea helped drag Rugby kicking and screaming into the pro world where it frankly should have been all along.
 
Could anybody please explain why anybody would prefer an amateur team? I'm still trying to piece together these key [major] bits of rugby history...
 
Could anybody please explain why anybody would prefer an amateur team? I'm still trying to piece together these key [major] bits of rugby history...

Playing for the love of the game for me.

To not have the added pressure professionalism brings, just the ability to turn up to a game on the weekend boots in hand and play the sport I love.

Followed by a good days drinking of course.

That to me is the joy of Amateur sports.
 
From that perspective sure.

The upshot was that in the NH, the RFU and FFR, and to a lesser extent, the other Home Unions; organizations run by stuffy old gin-swilling blazers with Victorian mindsets, fought tooth and nail to try stop professionalism from infecting The Great Game. While they sat on their hands with their heads buried in the sand, in total denial and hoping it would all go away, the Clubs stepped in and the rest is history. The National Unions lost control of their players as they were all systematically contracted to privately owned clubs.

Does it still apply here to the "gin-swilling...Victorian mindsets", though?
 
Amateur rugby is orientated to the player and its developement, pro rugby is orientated to the spectator (show) that´s why it´s more fun to watch
 
From that perspective sure.

The upshot was that in the NH, the RFU and FFR, and to a lesser extent, the other Home Unions; organizations run by stuffy old gin-swilling blazers with Victorian mindsets, fought tooth and nail to try stop professionalism from infecting The Great Game. While they sat on their hands with their heads buried in the sand, in total denial and hoping it would all go away, the Clubs stepped in and the rest is history. The National Unions lost control of their players as they were all systematically contracted to privately owned clubs.

Does it still apply here to the "gin-swilling...Victorian mindsets", though?

No they have moved on to Scotch
 
My opinion is this, crude as it may be. a 7 point converted try beats a 3 point penalty/drop kick. I'll now present exhibit A: the last WC . Exhibit B: when the English beat the all blacks up there, was it 2012 or 2013. That day we lost the battle but won the war.
 
My opinion is this, crude as it may be. a 7 point converted try beats a 3 point penalty/drop kick. I'll now present exhibit A: the last WC . Exhibit B: when the English beat the all blacks up there, was it 2012 or 2013. That day we lost the battle but won the war.

By 4 points, yes, we know! We also had maths at school.
 

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