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[November Tests 2017 EOYT] France vs. South Africa (18/11/2017)

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I don't understand AC's logic. He does all the changes we want, except where we were the most poor last week and that is the back three.

We can be stronger in every other position, but if France does the same as Ireland, we are still in for a torrid time if they bomb us.
 
A Better team this time. I am relieved that Vermeulen and Pollard starts. Can Francois Venter play nr 12? Isn't he an outside center? The French will be really fired up for this game for two reasons: Revenge for the June humiliation and to rub salt into the wounds after being awarded the 2023 World Cup. Boks are in for another difficult game.
 
A Better team this time. I am relieved that Vermeulen and Pollard starts. Can Francois Venter play nr 12? Isn't he an outside center? The French will be really fired up for this game for two reasons: Revenge for the June humiliation and to rub salt into the wounds after being awarded the 2023 World Cup. Boks are in for another difficult game.

Venter plays 12 for the Cheetahs with Nico Lee as his outside center. I think venter was played outside (excuse the pun) of his natural position of inside center on the EOYT last year.

We need to beat the French.
One of the only nations in the world who seem arrogant even in times of bad form.
 
I rate Venter more of a 12 than a 13 anyway ,,, just need Am next to him now

Venter plays 12 for the Cheetahs with Nico Lee as his outside center. I think venter was played outside (excuse the pun) of his natural position of inside center on the EOYT last year.

We need to beat the French.
One of the only nations in the world who seem arrogant even in times of bad form.
 
I have a sneaking suspicion another loss could be on the cards, the French look a little resurgent.

This is by no means a gimme, if we don't step up we will lose, end of story.
 
Another awful performance from the french side, no organisation, no support, no impact, the big mess, roasted after 20 minutes, we are used to it now :(

Thanks to the top14 for shaping and preparing our players for the international level...
 
Such a pity for France, time for a big overhaul, does not work anymore what we are doing, it is very sad to see this and I do believe that this SA team was really average...

Anyway, at least, a victory for SA , must warm the heart after the slapping of last week.
 
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Well that was a nice gentle sedative before hitting the hay. Two teams playing Retro Rugby and seemingly obsessed with taking the ball into contact. They both played a lot worse and with less ambition than their test series in June which is puzzling and disappointing.

I thought there were signs of life with Noves and France last November but since then there is nothing. If he remains for the start of the 6N it will be too late to switch to a new coach for the next RWC so it is decision time at the end of November (arguably the same for South Africa). A puny Japanese pack next week makes it impossible for France to lose, but a win there should not spare Noves.

So glad South Africa have found a flyhalf with the "basic mental toughness" to make vital kicks in close contests :p

Seriously, if the Boks play for their jerseys that hard next week Italy will be a cakewalk - for whatever reason their mentality seems much better than this time last year even if their performance isn't great. This match really underlined my suspicions that Ireland put in an extremely good shift last week.

Man of the match to the French crowd for me. Heaven knows why they turn up in large numbers each week to watch this! NH fans seem much more loyal (or stupid!) during the bad times than seems customary in the SH.
 
BmG has saved me typing too much, gawd that was a boring game! Totally agree about the French crowd.
 
Congratulations Allister Coatzee, his staff and most of the players for their first away victory as Springboks! Let's celebrate Bok fans! Why be so negative all the time?

That said, France are atrocious. Analytically, France should be at the same level as England - very similar in terms of economics and general rugby culture, but they are way worse. What is wrong? Horrible. Absolutely horrible.
 
Ok Bok players now -

15 - why don't people like AC? I agree that he is not "electric" but he is fearless without putting the team at risk. Isn't this what we want in a fullback?

11 & 14 - well, Leyd's try validates me in that I knew that the Boks would need a try in the first 15 minutes to get a win. But overall, Leyds is fine but nothing more. Skosan played better than last week but still had a number of handling errors. Nothing to add from the RC. Weakness. Weakness, weakness.

12 & 13 - i thought that Venter played well and Kriel better. I don't know what the answer here is but this week was a marked improvement on last week.

10 - Pollard was excellent on first phase for the early try. His forward running made the whole move work. His kicking was bad, BUT 10's kicking can sometimes be bad. Overall, I think that he should keep his place.

9 - I like Ross but he was bad. I wanted him to rest and he was slow. He made a number of poor passes in this game.

8 - I thought Duane had a huge impact - scrum, breakdown, line out, tackling - he was there all game. I am critical of selecting euro based players but credit where it is due. I think that he made a difference.

6 & 7 - I don't think that either Loew or Kolisi are playing great. It's meh for me here.

4 & 5 - i think that we have the rotation. Eben and Lood start with Mostert subbing in for whoever needs it. PSDT adds depth but I think that Eben and Lood start.

2 - Marx is awesome. How do we rest him?

1 & 3 - prop is good. I like our options here.
 
Ok Bok players now -

15 - why don't people like AC? I agree that he is not "electric" but he is fearless without putting the team at risk. Isn't this what we want in a fullback?

11 & 14 - well, Leyd's try validates me in that I knew that the Boks would need a try in the first 15 minutes to get a win. But overall, Leyds is fine but nothing more. Skosan played better than last week but still had a number of handling errors. Nothing to add from the RC. Weakness. Weakness, weakness.

12 & 13 - i thought that Venter played well and Kriel better. I don't know what the answer here is but this week was a marked improvement on last week.

10 - Pollard was excellent on first phase for the early try. His forward running made the whole move work. His kicking was bad, BUT 10's kicking can sometimes be bad. Overall, I think that he should keep his place.

9 - I like Ross but he was bad. I wanted him to rest and he was slow. He made a number of poor passes in this game.

8 - I thought Duane had a huge impact - scrum, breakdown, line out, tackling - he was there all game. I am critical of selecting euro based players but credit where it is due. I think that he made a difference.

6 & 7 - I don't think that either Loew or Kolisi are playing great. It's meh for me here.

4 & 5 - i think that we have the rotation. Eben and Lood start with Mostert subbing in for whoever needs it. PSDT adds depth but I think that Eben and Lood start.

2 - Marx is awesome. How do we rest him?

1 & 3 - prop is good. I like our options here.

15. I agree. We had the risky but mercurial le Roux. Then people did not like him. I personally had no problem. Same with Coetzee I like his safeness.

12. Venter played well deserves to keep his spot for the foreseeable future.

10. Don’t wanna judge Pollard too much on his kicks at goal but it could have cost us the game if the French flyhalf in turn kicked all his kicks. He did not and we won.

9. Ross was bad. Never was good in my opinion. Looked good in a dominant Lions team. Faf is a much better option. Same with Reinach but that boat has sailed.

8 Duane was good. Also glad Dan made his debut.

4. Etzebeth was consistent again. Glad we have him.


As you said we should not be negative the whole time. But high standards breeds success and yes while we should probably be happy about the win. You can kind of see when we are performing at the level we should be and that’s why people complain. Because they know the level we can achieve. Probably not not with this coach.

I don’t know what level Wales are at currently but I hope we can beat them to make our season look a bit better.
 
15. I agree. We had the risky but mercurial le Roux. Then people did not like him. I personally had no problem. Same with Coetzee I like his safeness.

12. Venter played well deserves to keep his spot for the foreseeable future.

10. Don’t wanna judge Pollard too much on his kicks at goal but it could have cost us the game if the French flyhalf in turn kicked all his kicks. He did not and we won.

9. Ross was bad. Never was good in my opinion. Looked good in a dominant Lions team. Faf is a much better option. Same with Reinach but that boat has sailed.

8 Duane was good. Also glad Dan made his debut.

4. Etzebeth was consistent again. Glad we have him.


As you said we should not be negative the whole time. But high standards breeds success and yes while we should probably be happy about the win. You can kind of see when we are performing at the level we should be and that’s why people complain. Because they know the level we can achieve. Probably not not with this coach.

I don’t know what level Wales are at currently but I hope we can beat them to make our season look a bit better.

I personally think Wales are crap. Scotland are better now.

But, Boks should experiment more now. They really don't need to win all these games. Am, Gelant, Bongi, Mahoje, Schreuder can all start now against Italy and Wales. If they lose who cares really.

Ireland and France were the games that mattered. Ireland was always going to be tough. Too bad we were embarrased. We beat France with an early try. Good game.

I think that Faf is evidence of the economics issue that the Boks have. He didn't get offered a Bok contract because SARU has no room for risk.

How many DDA's can you tolerate?

Same issue applies to Kolbe and Kwagga. Too risky.
 
I thought there were signs of life with Noves and France last November but since then there is nothing.

The FFR team is in meltdown. I have posted it before. Do you need more evidence?

If he remains for the start of the 6N it will be too late to switch to a new coach for the next RWC so it is decision time at the end of November (arguably the same for South Africa). A puny Japanese pack next week makes it impossible for France to lose, but a win there should not spare Noves.
Noves will keep his job. Let's face it he's having ZERO impact might as well leave him. FFR don't do sacking. His assistants may get it but I think he will stay. He has become a union consultant with license to BS the media all day. Unless he resigns he will go to the RWC. Only problem he's going with a Pub team.
Man of the match to the French crowd for me. Heaven knows why they turn up in large numbers each week to watch this! NH fans seem much more loyal (or stupid!) during the bad times than seems customary in the SH.

The union has been losing fans by the train load. The Stade de France was a long way from selling out for this game. Lots of empty seats.
Also for the 1st test v NZ fans were leaving the stadium at HF.

The union's losses are the Top 14 gains. Every fan that walks away from a game at the Stade de France is a new fan for club rugby in this country. Club rugby with 2 pro leagues will be more than happy to welcome those fans.

FFR have shut out the clubs for 2 decades over the national team. What goes around comes around for the union.

When more fans turn against the union and boycot intl games, the union will lose more of its fan base. It's going to get ugly for them because it will also hurt their TV deals.
 
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Congratulations Allister Coatzee, his staff and most of the players for their first away victory as Springboks! Let's celebrate Bok fans! Why be so negative all the time?

That said, France are atrocious. Analytically, France should be at the same level as England - very similar in terms of economics and general rugby culture, but they are way worse. What is wrong? Horrible. Absolutely horrible.

Top 14 is the main culprit, a slow game championship with a "I'm choosing my match philosophy, I just need to finish within the 6 first at the end of the season", not competitive at all, too much foreigners because too much money with clubs not caring much for the national team, a golden retirement house for a lot of rugby stars and too much matches during the season to even start to think about creating a consistent collective rugby with the national team. This championship is just creating injuries on top of injuries, killing player bodies and make the players not consistent at all in their performance and their motivation.

And worse on top of all things, this crappy championship is not preparing the players to the international level, the french pack is roasted after 1 half, they are not used to play at such a pace, this is as simple as that.

How many players have shown some nice stuff during 6 months with the national team and have just disappeared without a word ? All the Bastaraud, Trinh-Duc, David, Mermoz, Fofana, Picamoles, Dupuis, Parra (and much more) have been sacrificed in the name of the top 14 and the money generated by it, this is the pure simple truth. If we would have taken care of these players when they were 18, stop them to get destroyed in a ridiculous championship, if we would have accompany them to the international level with the adequate physical and technical training without having to beg clubs for letting them free 4 days instead of 3 days before the first 6 nationstournament match, creating a proper environment for them to feel confident, we would not be where we are today.

Also, FFR is not as powerful as RFU because poor in terms of finance compare to the RFU (you have to remember that the RFU owns Twickhenham , it is 60 millions profit a year, enough to pay well english clubs to let go their players more often in the national team..and to create a more comfortable environment for the national team

Since Top14 (and 16) exist (2004), the french national team has sunk slowly but surely, losing first his flair and then losing everything about his rugby, the 2 last matches are almost the nails in the coffin of a 10 years long dying process. Ok sure you can argue that there has been some accidents here and there (defeating the ABs in 2007 or going to the RWC final in 2011) but the content of the french rugby is just dying slowly since 10-15 years.

Deeply, the rugby culture in the french championships has not adapted to modern rugby, we are still producing fat props that are just useful for the scrum (again a very cultural thing in France, supporters love scrums), we are still not understanding that the modern rugby has changed. We are still not teaching our players how to properly turn over the ball in tackles/ruck situation like all other team are doing perfectly now. Look closely at a lot of ruck situation where french players are just throwing themselves (diving) for no gain at all, it is what they are learning and this is what they are doing in their championship...

The FFR has his fault as well, mainly in the formation of the youth and a long term plan. Training of the young players is not adapted to the modern rugby , we also need to reshape all this.

Anyway, there is very hard times to come for the french rugby, we need to look at the situation with clarity and truth in mind, stop to hide behind a "glorious" past of french flair. and accept to rebuild from scratch even if it means loads of defeat to come.

I'm following rugby since very long time, when I see that in the 80-90s, we were beating Ireland, Wales, Scotland on a regular basis in the 5-6 nations, it was hard for them to beat us and nowaday, this is the other way around, we have extreme dififculty to beat Wales, we do not beat Ireland anymore and Scotland is becoming a strong client. the reality is that we are not progressing and all the others are progressing constantly.

The only light in this long tunnel is the 2023 RWC organized by France, I hope the french rugby exec will take the opportunity to take a fresh start now. I honestly wish a defeat against Japan on Saturday, the last nail in the coffin of the old french rugby, no more hiding and scapegoat.
 
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Ok Bok players now -

15 - why don't people like AC? I agree that he is not "electric" but he is fearless without putting the team at risk. Isn't this what we want in a fullback?

11 & 14 - well, Leyd's try validates me in that I knew that the Boks would need a try in the first 15 minutes to get a win. But overall, Leyds is fine but nothing more. Skosan played better than last week but still had a number of handling errors. Nothing to add from the RC. Weakness. Weakness, weakness.

12 & 13 - i thought that Venter played well and Kriel better. I don't know what the answer here is but this week was a marked improvement on last week.

10 - Pollard was excellent on first phase for the early try. His forward running made the whole move work. His kicking was bad, BUT 10's kicking can sometimes be bad. Overall, I think that he should keep his place.

9 - I like Ross but he was bad. I wanted him to rest and he was slow. He made a number of poor passes in this game.

8 - I thought Duane had a huge impact - scrum, breakdown, line out, tackling - he was there all game. I am critical of selecting euro based players but credit where it is due. I think that he made a difference.

6 & 7 - I don't think that either Loew or Kolisi are playing great. It's meh for me here.

4 & 5 - i think that we have the rotation. Eben and Lood start with Mostert subbing in for whoever needs it. PSDT adds depth but I think that Eben and Lood start.

2 - Marx is awesome. How do we rest him?

1 & 3 - prop is good. I like our options here.
There's nothing special about AC. He is not very big and is easy to stop, he struggles to break tackles. He is nothing compared to what Willie Le Roux was at his peak.
 
There seem to be too many players in the Bok team that struggle to make that step up to international level.
 
There's nothing special about AC. He is not very big and is easy to stop, he struggles to break tackles. He is nothing compared to what Willie Le Roux was at his peak.

Should be fun to see Gelant play then. He is like 4 or 5 years younger than AC, which is probably why AC is the heir apparent, but it will be fun to see how he plays.
 
Yes, it seems that he has come out and said that.

I am sure that some changes will be required to simply manage the players, but a rest for Skosan, Coatzee and Cronje seems to be in order. I would hope to see two of those three players not start.

Oh and Kriel.
 
That said, France are atrocious. Analytically, France should be at the same level as England - very similar in terms of economics and general rugby culture, but they are way worse. What is wrong? Horrible. Absolutely horrible.

Yes France's last game v SA was the most pitiful display of inept rugby I've ever watched them play.

It comes down to decades of bad politics between the union (FFR) and the clubs. The union have shut out the clubs over the national team for the last 20 yrs when they should have gone into shared partnership with them. In the end the clubs had enough and turned their back. The recruitment in Top 14 is one of the consequences. Now the **** is hitting the fan for real.

The union have one way out of this mess. They either directly contract the internationals or the national team goes to hell.
 
Yes France's last game v SA was the most pitiful display of inept rugby I've ever watched them play.

It comes down to decades of bad politics between the union (FFR) and the clubs.

Wow we agree.


The union have shut out the clubs over the national team for the last 20 yrs when they should have gone into shared partnership with them. In the end the clubs had enough and turned their back.

This is the most ridiculous and uninformed statement. What shared partnership ? Shut out ?

You should really learn the history of the french rugby and especially the beginning of professionalism era in France before throwing statement like this.

This was an association of elite clubs who have decided to create an elite championship with 16 clubs in 1998 (with the forcing of the sport minister at the time), they went their own way without never trying to find any compromise with the union (ha yes the compromise was : do what we want), they have vampirized the french rugby for money. And 20 years after, here we are, the wonderful model wanted by this association is a success :rolleyes:



The recruitment in Top 14 is one of the consequences. Now the **** is hitting the fan for real.


What loads of BS ! The recruitment in the Top14 has been exactly wanted like this by these elite clubs, the FFR (union) has never forced them to do anything about it.


The union have one way out of this mess. They either directly contract the internationals or the national team goes to hell.

Hahaha you are so funny ! So you will explain to everybody why the LNR (the Top14 and ProD2 clubs) has refused 6 months ago the proposal of Laporte (president of the union) to contract players (the union would pay 6 month wages for players of a list of 45 who would play in the french team) , giving loads of bullshit argument "it is impossible, it is not legal , blablabla" ??

They have not even tried to compromise. Ha yes sorry, they graciously increased the list of "protected" players (these guys have a cap on the number of matches they can play during the clubs season - but the cap is kind of ridiculous as the player can still play a match during a certain number of minutes for this match to not be taken in account in the cap number) from 30 to 45 and increase the period of rest for these players from 8 to 10 weeks during the summer ! Wow, surely we can save the french rugby with such decisive action !!!!

The union is to blame for a lot of things (especially the formation) but certainly not for the failure of the top14 to create an elite for the french rugby.
 
Well it was a bit of a meh, test. We were equally poor. So many missed opportunities. So many passes behind players or to no man's land. So many missed kicks.

Skosan was again the pedestrian in the backline. zero contribution from him whatsoever.

Pollard's goal kicking was terrible. Guess that's what happens when you haven't had matchday kicking opportunities in over 6 months, especially after an ankle injury. But with that said, the french flyhalf also missed 2 easy enough kicks, so maybe it was the weather and the pitch playing a part as well?

But what a difference did Pollard and Venter make to our backline? We didn't look as impotent as we have been all year. We got good ball to work with and on several occasions broke the line only to have it squandered on the wing or a poor pass.

Anyways. Glad we got a win at least, even if it was just 1 point. Still not good enough, and I think Allister Coetzee should now count the days of still being coach, coz they're becoming less by the day.
 
Pollard's goal kicking was terrible. Guess that's what happens when you haven't had matchday kicking opportunities in over 6 months, especially after an ankle injury.
yes it was but he's a very good player. I remember when I first saw him play I was impressed. He attacks the line very well. Jantjes is good but ball in hand tends to drift sideways too much. He doesn't attack the line as well as Pollard can.

When Pollard finds his bearings at test level again (having been out so long) I think he will be the flyhalf SA needs IMO.

Interesting to see that in spite of his lack of luck with his kicks nobody else took over the kicking duties. That was a statement of trust from the staff but also a silent acknowlegment of the **** poor opposition the Boks were facing...
 

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