SA Rebuilding

[TRF_stormer2010]

Some good insight, Dan and i wouldn't ridicule you for mentioning Vijoen at 10 as he's had some good games there in the past though 15 is his best position IMO but the unfortunate thing with both him and Sarel Pretorius is age and the fact that they SHOULD HAVE BEEN there rather than that they should be there now. It will be very difficult as well now with Pretorius moving to Aus and Viljoen probably going to feature on the Shark's bench.

Some awesome talent that have unfortunately been wasted to SA. I'm not going to blame PdV as who knows, maybe other coaches would also have overlooked them mostly becuase of them playing for Griquas. I guess there are lots of could have beens but I can't see these 2 at a RWC 4 years on so I think it best to go for the up-and-commers and give them that exposure and experience.

 

[TRF_Ezequiel]

Found this on rugby365.com:



(In alphabetical order)
ALLISTER COETZEE:
The Western Province and Stormers coach is a better coach than he was in 2008 - when many wanted him to take over from White. He is media-savvy enough (even if he tends to be a bit clichéd) and he has the experience of having served under White for four years - including the 2007 World Cup win in France.
Pros: He has coached the likes of Bekker, Burger, Fourie - all of whom are expected to form the nucleus of the Bok side moving forward. He has done okay with WP in the 2011 Currie Cup - despite his limited resources.
Cons: For all the promise shown with the Stormers and WP, they have not won a trophy under him and have imploded in two finals (Currie Cup and Super Rugby) and one home semifinal (Super Rugby) in recent years.
NAKA DROTSKÉ:
A Currie Cup winner - as a player and coach - Drotské continues to produce good results at provincial level, despite struggling at Super Rugby level where the Cheetahs' depth has always worked against them.
Pros: He has done well with limited resources at the Cheetahs - unearthing some good talent in the process; a name like Johan Goosen topping that list at present.
Cons: Coaching the Cheetahs, in a small, rugby-mad town is a very, very different prospect to taking on the Bok job. He also recently signed a new three-year contract with the Cheetahs - they would not be keen to let him go.
RASSIE ERASMUS:
Erasmus has, for long, been considered as something of a coaching messiah. He achieved a lot with Free State - including three Currie Cup wins - and has since helped rebuild WP Rugby, even though they have no senior trophies to show for their efforts.
Pros: One of SA's most astute rugby brains, he played a big role as a technical advisor to the Boks ahead of the 2007 and 2011 World Cups. Always capable of thinking out of the box and he has unearthed a host of new, young stars in Cape Town during his time in charge at Western Province.
Cons: What does he want to do? Does he want to remain in charge of WP? What about his rugby version of cricket's IPL? Did he make any friends with SARU's - and the IRB's - top brass by attempting that little venture? Does he want the Springbok coaching job?
GARY GOLD:
Why are assistant coaches always tarred with the same brush as their bosses? Gold has added plenty value in the Bok set-up under De Villiers and a case could be made for him to stay involved in some capacity - at worst.
Pros: He's been part of the Bok camp under De Villiers these past four years - he knows the systems and would provide some continuity moving forward. He is well-travelled and is a hard worker behind the scenes.
Cons: See above - that works for and against him; for good reason(s) and bad.
FRANS LUDEKE:
Ludeke, 43, has many supporters up north - in Pretoria. He knows his rugby and has been around for a while, having coached at SWD and the Lions too.
Pros: He has been involved in the Bok set-up before - albeit as an assistant. He would have the Bulls support - although would that still exist in the Bok squad without Matfield, Du Preez and co.?
Cons: How much of his success - two Super Rugby ***les and a Currie Cup win - has been based on the work of Heyneke Meyer before him? Would his poor results at the Lions count against him?
HEYNEKE MEYER:
The 44-year-old would be the peoples' choice - the question is; is he available for the job after the way he was treated in 2008 (when Divvy controversially got the job ahead of him)? He has won multiple ***les and has, over the years, been the 'go-to' man for the likes of Matfield, Du Preez, etc.
Pros: Probably the most outstanding man for the job - his CV speaks for itself.
Cons: He recently moved into a new position at the Bulls - that of 'Executive: Rugby'. He has gone on record as saying he would not be available - but would he say no if his demands were met? Also, with all his senior Bulls men out of the picture, would the players want him so badly?
JOHN MITCHELL:
The former All Blacks coach seems to have found his calling in South Africa - having been released from his job with the Force to make the full-time move to SA last year. (Was that Dick Muir's best coaching move ever?) He has done very well in the 2011 Currie Cup, guiding his team to a home semifinal (ironically their first since under the tutelage of another Kiwi, Laurie Mains, in 1999), and getting them to play some exciting rugby in the process.
Pros: He has the experience at the highest level with the All Blacks, even if it did end in tears at the 2003 Rugby World Cup, with a brilliant win/loss ration during his time in charge.
Cons: He's a foreigner - despite having his own 'truly SA' moment when he found a criminal in his house last year. His Currie Cup success - so far - this season has been achieved without the rest of the country's top players in action, all of whom have been on World Cup duty.
JOHN PLUMTREE:
A great pal of Mitchell's and half a South African - in that he's married to an SA woman and having played provincial rugby for the Natal Sharks in the 1990s. A deep thinker, with a very good track-record at provincial level and some success at Super Rugby level too.
Pros: He boasts success at the Sharks, having won Currie Cup ***les in 2008 and 2010. He knows SA players very well, as well as NZ's best players - having coached someone like Ma'a Nonu at provincial level back home.
Cons: He's a foreigner. Some of his player management, at times, also seems a bit iffy - nevermind some odd recruitment happening at the Sharks.
PAUL TREU:
A bright man who is very passionate about what he does, many have tipped Treu for a bright future in (bigger) coaching. All that depends on whether he is interested in pursuing something at 15-a-side level or not.
Pros: He has achieved a lot with the SA Sevens team - leading them to the overall world ***le in the 2008/09 season and helped shape a host of big-name players in their younger days.
Cons: He is entrenched as the Springbok Sevens coach. Why would he want to leave that relative comfort the job entails?
Our final verdict:
As tempting as it might be to give foreigners like Mitchell or Plumtree a go (imagine them as a combination?), one cannot look further than Coetzee or Erasmus as the likely - and more realistic - options right now.

 

[TRF_Ezequiel]

A team in a year or two for me would be something like:

1. Oosthuizen
2. du Plessis
3. Steenkamp (he can play tighthead just fine!)
4. Alberts
5. Bekker
6. Brussow
7. Burger (C)
8. Smith (That's right. Smith at 8! We need all three of these guys in the team, and this is the only way)
9. Pretorius
10. Viljoen
11. Hougaard
12. de Villiers
13. Fourie
14. Aplon
15. Steyn
16. Brits
17. WP Nel (Sorry, I detest Beast and Jannie)
18. Mostert (I don't care if he's overseas now)
19. Louw
20. Grant (Hougaard covering SH)
21. de Jongh
22. Lambie

others in the mix:
Deysel
Johnson
Dewaldt Potgieter
Jano Vermaak
Saadie

I want to comment on your XV a bit...

Alberts at lock, I don't know... Given the fact this is the team for 2013 (you said in a year or 2) I think a youngster would be perfect. Rynhardt Elstadt or Anton Bresler (if eligible) would be nice next to Bekker. You also have to think of the future. Alberts is the guy who needs to replace Burger and Smith in a couple of years.

Oosthuizen, I still don't see where this whole Coenie Crush is coming from with a lot of guys. I would like to see some experience in the front-row since we are losing Jannie already. Steenkamp won't be eligible since he is moving to France. What should we do? Have talented guys like Oosthuizen and Herbst in the prop-positions? Or should we pick some more experience? I would prefer the Bulls props Kruger and Greyling for now and see how Coenie develops.

Smith at 8? No... Vermeulen deserves a chance and is the best no. 8 in the country at the moment. He was unlucky to miss out on the World Cup due to injury. It's Spies all over again. Just like him in 2007, Vermeulen was the best option. If it wasn't for the conservative views of the staff, he would have already gotten a chance in the Green and Gold

Sarel and Viljoen... 2 of my fav. players but Sarel is a liability in defence and that is why I feel we need Hougaard at scrum-half, also because we have the depth on the wing. Sarel deserves a chance but I don't think he is the 1st choice scrummie.

Riaan Viljoen is a better full-back than a fly-half and it would be a total waste to play Viljoen at 10 with Lambie at 15 when you could easily switch the 2 and put both in their favourite position in which they're top class.

The wings... With Hougaard playing at scrum-half and Aplon not getting any younger, we need to look at the young guns. Sithole is one for the future and might have it in him to play at the 2015 RWC in England. Can Pietersen show his class if he gets the ball more than once in a match? I am sure of it. Aplon is already 29 you know... That makes him 33 during the 2015 RWC. Something to take into account when making up your Bok squad in the next couple of years.

De Villiers is even older than Aplon. He is turning 31 in a couple of months. Will he still be around? I don't think so, especially with Francois Steyn showing pure world-class at 12. Francois Steyn should be our first choice inside-center. For outside-center we might still have Fourie in 2015, which will be his 4th RWC in his Springbok career. Is that too much? Well, we have Juan de Jongh to take over if necessary.


My team for 2013 (halfway through the preparation for the next Rugby World Cup.)

*Remember, I am one for the long-term success*


1. Tendai Mtawarira
2. Bismarck du Plessis
3. Werner Kruger
4. Rynhardt Elstadt
5. Andries Bekker
6. Heinrich Brüssow
7. Schalk Burger (c)
8. Duane Vermeulen
9. Francois Hougaard
10.Patrick Lambie
11.Sibusiso Sithole
12.Francois Steyn
13.Jaque Fourie (for experience)
14.JP Pietersen
15.Riaan Viljoen/Jaco Taute

16.Tiaan Liebenberg
17.Dean Greyling/Coenie Oosthuizen
18.Anton Bresler
19.Willem Alberts/Jean Deysel
20.Dewaldt Duvenhage
21.Juan de Jongh
22.Johan Goosen


There is some massive talent coming through which includes:

Ross Cronje, Jan-Andre Marais, Kyle Cooper, Wiehahn Herbst, Gouws Prinsloo (Sharks)
Jaco Taute, Elton Jantjies, Michael Bondesio (Lions)
Johan Goosen, Sias Ebersohn, Adriaan Strauss (Cheetahs)
Siya Kolisi, Johann Sadie, JJ Engelbrecht, Nick Koster, Demetri Catrakilis (WP)

and some guys up north in blue

 

[dan-the-man]

I want to comment on your XV a bit...

Alberts at lock, I don't know... Given the fact this is the team for 2013 (you said in a year or 2) I think a youngster would be perfect. Rynhardt Elstadt or Anton Bresler (if eligible) would be nice next to Bekker. You also have to think of the future. Alberts is the guy who needs to replace Burger and Smith in a couple of years.

Oosthuizen, I still don't see where this whole Coenie Crush is coming from with a lot of guys. I would like to see some experience in the front-row since we are losing Jannie already. Steenkamp won't be eligible since he is moving to France. What should we do? Have talented guys like Oosthuizen and Herbst in the prop-positions? Or should we pick some more experience? I would prefer the Bulls props Kruger and Greyling for now and see how Coenie develops.

Smith at 8? No... Vermeulen deserves a chance and is the best no. 8 in the country at the moment. He was unlucky to miss out on the World Cup due to injury. It's Spies all over again. Just like him in 2007, Vermeulen was the best option. If it wasn't for the conservative views of the staff, he would have already gotten a chance in the Green and Gold

Sarel and Viljoen... 2 of my fav. players but Sarel is a liability in defence and that is why I feel we need Hougaard at scrum-half, also because we have the depth on the wing. Sarel deserves a chance but I don't think he is the 1st choice scrummie.

Riaan Viljoen is a better full-back than a fly-half and it would be a total waste to play Viljoen at 10 with Lambie at 15 when you could easily switch the 2 and put both in their favourite position in which they're top class.

The wings... With Hougaard playing at scrum-half and Aplon not getting any younger, we need to look at the young guns. Sithole is one for the future and might have it in him to play at the 2015 RWC in England. Can Pietersen show his class if he gets the ball more than once in a match? I am sure of it. Aplon is already 29 you know... That makes him 33 during the 2015 RWC. Something to take into account when making up your Bok squad in the next couple of years.

De Villiers is even older than Aplon. He is turning 31 in a couple of months. Will he still be around? I don't think so, especially with Francois Steyn showing pure world-class at 12. Francois Steyn should be our first choice inside-center. For outside-center we might still have Fourie in 2015, which will be his 4th RWC in his Springbok career. Is that too much? Well, we have Juan de Jongh to take over if necessary.


My team for 2013 (halfway through the preparation for the next Rugby World Cup.)

*Remember, I am one for the long-term success*


1. Tendai Mtawarira
2. Bismarck du Plessis
3. Werner Kruger
4. Rynhardt Elstadt
5. Andries Bekker
6. Heinrich Brüssow
7. Schalk Burger (c)
8. Duane Vermeulen
9. Francois Hougaard
10.Patrick Lambie
11.Sibusiso Sithole
12.Francois Steyn
13.Jaque Fourie (for experience)
14.JP Pietersen
15.Riaan Viljoen/Jaco Taute

16.Tiaan Liebenberg
17.Dean Greyling/Coenie Oosthuizen
18.Anton Bresler
19.Willem Alberts/Jean Deysel
20.Dewaldt Duvenhage
21.Juan de Jongh
22.Johan Goosen


There is some massive talent coming through which includes:

Ross Cronje, Jan-Andre Marais, Kyle Cooper, Wiehahn Herbst, Gouws Prinsloo (Sharks)
Jaco Taute, Elton Jantjies, Michael Bondesio (Lions)
Johan Goosen, Sias Ebersohn, Adriaan Strauss (Cheetahs)
Siya Kolisi, Johann Sadie, JJ Engelbrecht, Nick Koster, Demetri Catrakilis (WP)

and some guys up north in blue

In terms of long-term success, you are spot on (however I don't really share the same enthusiasm for Sithole. I actually rate Mark Richards more). But if I were a coach and got to do the selections, I'd rather focus on the now. That's my philosophy with every aspect of life. As a devout Christian, I'm programmed to think that way (probably unneccasery info, just letting you know how my brain is wired). So in terms of what would be the best team for next years Quad Nations or something, I'd have to say that I am 100% confident in all my selections. In terms of future development, obviously a couple of my selections fall short.

I want to ask you something about the loosies though. You say Vermeulen is the best 8 in the country (and I agree), but if he were your number 8, who would you bench? Smith, Burger, or Brussow? And remember, you also said you wouldn't have Alberts at lock. So then with your selections, either Alberts, Smith, Brussow or Burger would have to drop out of the 22, and I rate all these guys too highly for them to not feature in the match 22!

**BTW okay fine I'll admit to a selection error..... I have Louw on my bench....scratch that, make it Vermeulen.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

According to reports on news24 both Rassie Erasmus and to a lesser extent Alliester Coetzee have indicated they are not interested in the Bok top job. Can't say I'm not relieved (although I'll only believe it when an appointment is actually made seeing as how journalists take statements out of context).

Jaque Fourie going off to Japan means he is saying bye-bye to the Springbok jersey in my view; why otherwise put yourself at more risk of injury and burn-out? If it's just for the money then I for one question his commitment to both WP and SA.

 

[TRF_Ezequiel]

So... Who do we have left?

- Nick Mallett
- John Plumtree
- Naka Drotske

These are the top 3 candidates now with Coetzee and Erasmus not being interested. Problem is, all 3 are white, which make them unwanted successors of PdV by ANC. ehhh, SARU

Oh well, we will see what happens

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Alan Soloman?

With Mitchell stating he will definately not be throughing his name into the hat my preference at this stage would be Gert Smal. I have huge respect for Brendan Venter's capabilities but doubts remain over his capacity to be a head coach of a top union; those childish outbursts while he was with Saracens is all fine and well for club coaches and your average fan but for a national coach; I've been through enough embarrassment with PdVvy to keep me humble for a good while yet thank you all the same.

 

[TRF_heineken]

All we can do is to speculate about the who the Bok Coach will be...

until SARU officially makes a statement of the shortlist, it could be anybody... hell, it could even be Victor Matfield since he has now retired.

As for the players, I think we are being premature in our predictions, I'd say lets wait until the halfway mark of the Super 15 next year to make a proper assessment... For all we know, Gerhard van Den Heever could bulk up this off-season and run out as the next 13 in a Stormers Jersey...

I think from next week, the word anticipation will be us South African's biggest worry... waiting for the rugby season to start, waiting to see who will be picked for the Super 15 squads, who will be on the Coach short list...

**** it's gonna SUCK!!

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Yeah, Heiniken, it's sucking allready for me; Lions and Sharks are my least favourite teams LOL so I don't have any rugby to look forward to.

All I have is speculation! Don't take it away from me LOL!!

 

[TRF_heineken]

Yeah, Heiniken, it's sucking allready for me; Lions and Sharks are my least favourite teams LOL so I don't have any rugby to look forward to.

All I have is speculation! Don't take it away from me LOL!!

Geez, think how I must feel... my poor old bulls didn't even reach the semi's!

and my second fav team was the Cheetahs...

but luckily we can watch the barbarians game in a couple of weeks and then the 7's starts... and I don't know about you guys, but my tv sporting calender isn't so empty with the cricket starting again as well... glad we beat the Aussies on Sunday...

Did you guys see the list of all the nominees for SA rugby player of the year?

 

[TRF_Ezequiel]

The nominees are (in alphabetical order):

SARU Rugby Player of the Year:
1. Schalk Burger
2. Bismarck du Plessis
3. Francois Hougaard
4. Pat Lambie
5. Victor Matfield

Young Player of the Year:
1. Johan Goosen
2. Francois Hougaard
3. Elton Jantjies
4. Pat Lambie
5. Jaco Taute

Absa Team of the Year:
1. Regent Boland Cavaliers
2. MTN Golden Lions
3. Springbok Sevens
4. DHL Stormers
5. University of Cape Town

Absa Coach of the Year:
1. Allister Coetzee (DHL Stormers and Western Province)
2. Eugene Eloff (Regent Boland Cavaliers)
3. John Mitchell (MTN Lions and Golden Lions)
4. John Plumtree (The Sharks)
5. Paul Treu (Springbok Sevens)

Vodacom Super Rugby Player of the Year:
1. Gio Aplon (DHL Stormers)
2. Schalk Burger (DHL Stormers)
3. Bismarck du Plessis (The Sharks)
4. Sarel Pretorius (Toyota Cheetahs)
5. Duane Vermeulen (DHL Stormers)

Absa Currie Cup Premier Division Player of the Year:
1. Johan Goosen (Toyota FS Cheetahs)
2. Elton Jantjies (MTN Golden Lions)
3. Frederic Michalak (The Sharks)
4. Josh Strauss (MTN Golden Lions)
5. Jaco Taute (MTN Golden Lions)

Absa Currie Cup First Division Player of the Year:
1. Bolla Conradie (Regent Boland Cavaliers)
2. Danwel Demas (Regent Boland Cavaliers)
3. Willie le Roux (Regent Boland Cavaliers)
4. Luke Watson (EP Kings)
5. Elgar Watts (Regent Boland Cavaliers)

Vodacom Cup Player of the Year:
1. Marnitz Boshoff (Vodacom Blue Bulls)
2. Marcell Coetzee (Sharks XV)
3. Lionel Cronje (DHL WP)
4. JJ Engelbrecht (DHL WP)
5. Juan Imhoff (Pampas XV)




The nominees and in green, my picks for the awards

 

[psychic duck]

Young Player of the Year:
1. Johan Goosen
2. Francois Hougaard
3. Elton Jantjies
4. Pat Lambie
5. Jaco Taute

is Taute better than Kirchner?

Absa Currie Cup Premier Division Player of the Year:
1. Johan Goosen (Toyota FS Cheetahs)
2. Elton Jantjies (MTN Golden Lions)
3. Frederic Michalak (The Sharks)
4. Josh Strauss (MTN Golden Lions)
5. Jaco Taute (MTN Golden Lions)

so has Michalak done well in SA?
could Jantjies be ready to be in the SA squad by 2012?

Absa Currie Cup First Division Player of the Year:
1. Bolla Conradie (Regent Boland Cavaliers)
2. Danwel Demas (Regent Boland Cavaliers)
3. Willie le Roux (Regent Boland Cavaliers)
4. Luke Watson (EP Kings)
5. Elgar Watts (Regent Boland Cavaliers)

Bolla Conradie: he still plays!

Luke Watson: has he been welcomed back to SA?

Danwel Demas: very entertaining player, but so erratic

Vodacom Cup Player of the Year:
1. Marnitz Boshoff (Vodacom Blue Bulls)
2. Marcell Coetzee (Sharks XV)
3. Lionel Cronje (DHL WP)
4. JJ Engelbrecht (DHL WP)
5. Juan Imhoff (Pampas XV)

great choice

 

[Seaton]

is Taute better than Kirchner?

So far, yes it most certainly seems like it. Big, strong runner. Still a little too direct and has his reverts back to games of one dimensionalness, but the talent is evident and has been since he made his debut last year.

so has Michalak done well in SA?
could Jantjies be ready to be in the SA squad by 2012?

Michalak has been on and off, had one or two more good games than average ones, had a shocker or two as well. Personally I think he was lucky to make the nominees list, somone like Marcell Coetzee from the Sharks alone would probably have for me been a fairer choice, but the fact is that Michalak is the leading scorer with 181 points in the CC this year, which undoubtedly played a major role in his selection. Not moaning, happy that he is here, just needs to find a better semblance of consistency before the S15 next year.

As for Jantjies, meh it depends on what the Bok gameplan is going to be. Defense is still his weakest point, in both tackling and positioning, but that said he is still better than Cooper in this regard. (well who isn't?) I think a country like Aus would have capped the likes of Lambie and Jantjies during last years June internationals, not a criticism but I don't think he will get the call-up just yet, unless one of M. Steyn or Lambie are buggered, and depending on who the new coach is. He might well have a fantastic Super15, but as you know it's difficult to truely tell when a player is ready to make the step-up.

Luke Watson: has he been welcomed back to SA?

Lol, most SA rugby fans are still unaware of his presence in SA, and would probably prefer to remain in blissful ignorance if it saved them from getting upset. He still gets the odd boo playing away from home, but seeing as the Kings and Boland romped that division and every team they came up against, crowds were in pretty somber moods. Done well since he has comeback. Still a dick though, would probably need to save a set of triplets from a burning building, donate all his money to charity and kiss the Bok emblem before most people will stop giving him funny looks!

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Schalk Burger
Francois Hougaard
UCT (actually won something LOL; and broke Maties' run)
John Mitchell
Duane Vermeulen
Johan Goosen
Bolla Conradie/Willie le Roux
Juan Imhoff/Marcell Coetzee

Taute is still raw but already ahead of Kirschner IMO. People will start *****ing once Watson starts playing in higher level tournaments. Michalak has been decidedly French. Jantjies has shown some promise but has stiff competition; Lambie/Goosen/Ebersohn/Steyn as incumbent and still relatively young. Bolla is class LOL!

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

I don't want to say I told you so, but...

So Jake White and John Mitchell is out of the running...

that leaves us with Hawies Foure, Heyneke Meyer, Heyneke Meyer, Heyneke Meyer, Allistair Coetzee, Heyneke Meyer, Heyneke Meyer, Heyneke Meyer, John Plumtree, Heyneke Meyer, Heyneke Meyer, Heyneke Meyer, Gert Smal, Heyneke Meyer, Heyneke Meyer, Heyneke Meyer, Dick Muir, Heyneke Meyer, Heyneke Meyer, Heyneke Meyer and Paul Treu

Wel, geluk, Boet. Dit wil voorkom dat jy jou wens vervul gekry het. Nou wens ek vir Gert Smal, Jacques Nienaber en natuurlik Hawies Fourie om Meyer as hulpafrigters te dien.