Should the Pumas stay in the RC, for the next seasons. Yes or No? Argue

[Big Ewis]

Based on what? The progress of Italy is the only real indicator we have toward how they'll adapt and they still haven't beaten England or Ireland in over 10 years! And considering that they have no domestic set up, few if any players in Super Rugby, and no prospects of getting a professional league set up any time soon it could be a long time before Argentina are truly competing. They might pick off the odd win here or there, but no more than that for the foreseeable future.

Yeah but you can't compare Argentina to Italy first of all. Also: seeing how they played this year, I think they surprised a LOT of ppl world wide; I feel like madflyhalf is spot on with that time estimation. In about 4-5 years they beat NZ, perhaps before (an odd win like you said) and SA and Australia before. They tied (and really should have won) against SA this very first ever year for fk's sake !! How does one not agree with the 2-5 year thing ?!

 

[madflyhalf]

Off the top of my head I could name at least 7 Argentine players. Italian players: The Bergamasco twins (and don't ask me their names, I don't know, and don't care).

I'm pretty sure your big, muscled friend Pierre "Sideways" Spies, would name a few others, at least the Italian n.8 who plays like an actual 8man and not a dancing like a ballerina, escaping from tackling like a man.
Or maybe the big bearded guy who teached (exactly 1 year after the first big bearded Welsh) your beasts how to scrum correctly.



The only real reason about the inconsistency of Italy's growth after their entry in Six Nations is, the same reason behind Argentina's growth in these years: managements and white collar.

While Argentina have had a great development plans, built on elite rugby players as well as 3rd tier (not necessarly professional) and most important youth rugby, Italy had a cancer named Dondi (now is named Gavazzi) who not only disrupt italian domestic rugby, but also did never implement long term plans, and centralized the elite young players development in the FIR Academies, just to fill vacating jobs for his friends, that actually killed our future.

The whole thing failed, but that man still had enough power to made his 65yo pupil Gavazzi become his successor, doing exactly the same shite done before, in just the first 15 days of his agency!


After 2000, they create a train with a strong locomotive fed by media and IRB, barely tied to the following coaches.
They willingly forgot (and still forget) to do maintanance to them, they kept feeding the locomotive more and more, and the coaches are now uncouples not only from the locomitive but also each others.


Just to make clear what I'm talking about: FIR is the 3rd richest sporting federation (union) in Italy, FIR has an annual budget of €40mln.
Nobody knows anything else. The budget detailed voices are unknown. Transparency and clearness have been asked for 8 years and for 8 years the answer wasn't "No" or "Later you'll see".
There just wasn't any answer!
It is supposed that for the FIR youth academy €4mln per year are spent.

We still don't know where all these money go, because any positive results has come since they have been established.

 

[dasNdanger]

First of all, to compare Argentina to Italy, is like comparing Dan Carter to Johnny Sexton...

Yeah, I agree. Now, you can compare their progress (or lack thereof) once they entered into a major competition, but the two teams seem world's apart in most other aspects. Ratings-wise, Argentina is wedged between Ireland and Scotland, and honestly I think Argentina performed better than Ireland against the AB in the spring tour.


das

 

[LittleGuy]

One thign the Pumas have that Italy certainly dosen't is players from 9-15 who range from excellent to average, while the Italian players in these positions range from average to horrible. Where as Argentina has a world class 10 in Hernandez, Italy is stuck fielding either Burton or someone even worse(see Botes).

I think das made a great pont about Argentina looking tired in the last couple of games, I think Phelan did not rotate the squad enough and in a few cases fitness needs to be improved.

 

[petite]

i will just say that the´re are at least 5 argentinian player in the italian team: parise (captain) castrogiovanni, orquera , canavosio and gonzalo canale.

 

[smartcooky]

Do people recall Italy actually won a game in their first season in the big league? They then crashed back to reality for the next decade plus.

Hardly a fair comparison though. Italy beat Scotland (they had beaten before, they were only ranked 1 place behind at the time - Italy was 10 - Scotland was 9), but then had 23 tries and between 40 and 60 points stacked against them in their next four games, and they didn't have to play the top three teams in the world.

With a little luck and a little more commitment, Argentina could have won three matches this year, they should have beaten SA in Argentina and Australia on the Gold Coast. They had the winning of those games but didn't close the deal, probably more through lack of experience and poor use of top two inches rather than any lack of rugby playing ability.

Also, apart form the thing with the laser, which has to be stamped on quickly, I love what their fans bring to the game. Our fans could learn a thing or two from them about enthusiasm for their team.

 

[admartian]

Do people recall Italy actually won a game in their first season in the big league? They then crashed back to reality for the next decade plus.

Wait wut?

Competition is different. Comparing the quality of opposition for the Argies between AUS, NZ, SA (Top 3 teams) is not even fair...for anyone.

 

[psychic duck]

Hardly a fair comparison though. Italy beat Scotland (they had beaten before, they were only ranked 1 place behind at the time - Italy was 10 - Scotland was 9), but then had 23 tries and between 40 and 60 points stacked against them in their next four games, and they didn't have to play the top three teams in the world.

With a little luck and a little more commitment, Argentina could have won three matches this year, they should have beaten SA in Argentina and Australia on the Gold Coast. They had the winning of those games but didn't close the deal, probably more through lack of experience and poor use of top two inches rather than any lack of rugby playing ability.

Also, apart form the thing with the laser, which has to be stamped on quickly, I love what their fans bring to the game. Our fans could learn a thing or two from them about enthusiasm for their team.

Doesn't seem to have much real effect on the success of the kicker tbh.

 

[donmcdazzle]

One thign the Pumas have that Italy certainly dosen't is players from 9-15 who range from excellent to average, while the Italian players in these positions range from average to horrible. Where as Argentina has a world class 10 in Hernandez, Italy is stuck fielding either Burton or someone even worse(see Botes).

I think das made a great pont about Argentina looking tired in the last couple of games, I think Phelan did not rotate the squad enough and in a few cases fitness needs to be improved.

Hernandez is not world class. This is the biggest myth in rugby. He had a good world cup 5 years ago. He wouldn't start for SA, Aus, and wouldn't even make the bench for the ABs.

 

[LittleGuy]

Hernandez is not world class. This is the biggest myth in rugby. He had a good world cup 5 years ago. He wouldn't start for SA, Aus, and wouldn't even make the bench for the ABs.

Hernandez was clearly the 2nd best Flyhalf of the competition!!!! He was far superior to Steyn, Goosen and Jantjies that South Africa fielded. Cooper had a poor tournament by his previous standards and might not be returning to the Wallabies anyway. Barnes and Beale were OK for Oz in relief considering they often play at other positions, but Hernandez was clearly better.

 

[psychic duck]

I'm starting to think Hernández should move back to 15. He is probably the best in the world at up and unders, but he lacks some variation to his game that he had pre-injuries. He used to run at the line a lot more than he has been doing. Whilst his up and unders would still be at use from 15.

He is capable of being a great player from 10 also though, in 2007 he was immense in the Top 14 final and the World Cup of course. He's still a good player, but injuries have lessened the great player he could have been.



I think he would get in the 22 for the other SANZAR nations, if not a fly half he would somewhere, and start for South Africa and Australia. I would take him over Kirchner any day as a 15, or their fly halves.

 

[big ginger 8]

First of all, to compare Argentina to Italy, is like comparing Dan Carter to Johnny Sexton, or Sir Graham Henry and Jake White to Pieter De Villiers. Argentina has had much better accomplishments throughout their long tenure in World Rugby. their scrums are feared by all high ranking nations. Nobody fears anything about Italy, except maybe scathing Italian words which they don't understand.

Argentina has been in a World Cup semi-final. They have beaten some of the best nations in the world. They have some of the best players in the world.

Off the top of my head I could name at least 7 Argentine players. Italian players: The Bergamasco twins (and don't ask me their names, I don't know, and don't care).

The argentinians play some of the most enjoyable rugby to watch, they are respectful towards the referee and other players and real gentlemen of the game.

@ Hill-Back-Dallaglio: You are trying to compare apples with oranges and your arguments will continuously fall on deaf ears if you continue with these dumbfounded arguments. You already have a neg rep rating, and like most of us here know, apart from Dizzy, once you're in the red zone, nobody will take you seriously.

You saying nobody fears Sexton? I must break you

Yes of course Argentina should stay in the comp.

 

[smartcooky]

Doesn't seem to have much real effect on the success of the kicker tbh.

Sooner or later though, one is going to distract the kicker as he is about to strike the ball.

People underestimate just how hazardous those cheap little laser pointers are, especially the green ones.

The ones under 5 milliwatts are usually harmless, but once they get over 5 milliwatts. they start to become a hazard, and are quite capable of causing temporary blindness.

The Aviation industry certainly takes the misuse of them seriously.

http://boston.cbslocal.com/2012/09/...cy-landing-after-laser-pointed-at-windshield/

http://www.gsnmagazine.com/article/27492/coast_guard_pilots_face_another_laser_incident

http://www.pnj.com/article/20121006...=mod|newswell|text|Hurricane|p&nclick_check=1

http://www.ocregister.com/news/laser-373815-bertagna-pointed.html

 

[madflyhalf]

Hernandez was clearly the 2nd best Flyhalf of the competition!!!! He was far superior to Steyn, Goosen and Jantjies that South Africa fielded. Cooper had a poor tournament by his previous standards and might not be returning to the Wallabies anyway. Barnes and Beale were OK for Oz in relief considering they often play at other positions, but Hernandez was clearly better.

Goosen has been managed bad by HM (i.e. he's now injuried again, til the end of the season), but in his few minutes, played better than Hernandez too.

Cooper was so much better in his 2 tests against South Africa and Pumas than Hernandez in the entire RC.

Much better, because despite some lazy passes or dropped balls, he still managed to create try occasions, Australia crossed Argentina's tryline 4 times, butterfinger from Grandpa Samo and a great try-saving tackle prevent them to be the first team to score 4 tries against the Pumas. Two of those occasions were out of Cooper hands, as well as a couple of other breaks.

Hernandez almost created nothing, he's been a great fullback, converted in 2007 to FH due to his kicking duties and lack of depth upwards (and Nani Corleto back there in full form), but he's always been nowhere near to a Rugby Championship FH level.
It's sad to see this guy now, he's terribly slow, he runs the ball from far the line attacking too deep without giving any really question mark to the defence.

Beale has been way better than him in 2 tests played against South Africa and Argentina last saturday.

Looking at the different approaches to the game of Cooper/Beale and Hernandez, seems to compare 2012 to '90s



Argentina urge to move him back to fullback or even better to the bench as an impact player (which he can be) covering for FB and (occasionally) FH spots.

 

[psychic duck]

Cooper was so much better in his 2 tests against South Africa and Pumas than Hernandez in the entire RC.

What? Cooper was poor against the Pumas, he dropped the ball, threw crap passes and was charged down to conceded a try. To suggest he is "so much better" when he was clearly off form and out of sorts is ridiculous. Hernández can also tackle well unlike Cooper.

Hernandez almost created nothing, he's been a great fullback, converted in 2007 to FH due to his kicking duties and lack of depth upwards (and Nani Corleto back there in full form), but he's always been nowhere near to a Rugby Championship FH level.

Wrong. He was never moved to 10 due to kicking duties, he never kicked when Contepomi was in the side. He moved because he himself wanted to play fly half, simple as that. Although he hasn't been as an attacking threat as he could be and has little variation than his up and unders, he has been decent and I don't think Australia and South Africa fly halves have been particularly better than him. And he still did have his moments in attack in the tournament, helping start a try in the Australia match in the Gold Coast.

I don't know what you think of as "Rugby Championship FH level", but I think you are severely overrating the play of South Africa's and Australia's fly halves in comparison to Hernández.

Argentina urge to move him back to fullback or even better to the bench as an impact player (which he can be) covering for FB and (occasionally) FH spots.

I don't know what your talking about here. Even though after over 2 years of constant injury he has been lessened to a great player to simply decent player, he is still a special talent and is a good punt kicker with arguably the world's best up and under. There'll be a place for him in the Argentina side when he's fit for sure.

 

[Tony Manx]

I'm starting to think Hernández should move back to 15. He is probably the best in the world at up and unders, but he lacks some variation to his game that he had pre-injuries. He used to run at the line a lot more than he has been doing. Whilst his up and unders would still be at use from 15.

He is capable of being a great player from 10 also though, in 2007 he was immense in the Top 14 final and the World Cup of course. He's still a good player, but injuries have lessened the great player he could have been.



I think he would get in the 22 for the other SANZAR nations, if not a fly half he would somewhere, and start for South Africa and Australia. I would take him over Kirchner any day as a 15, or their fly halves.

I think 2007 Hernandez was at his zenith and has been a shadow of that player since his injuries and will never recoup that fitness or confidence to enable him to display what was an incredible talent. I am also a very firm believer that serious injuries, never mind a run of them, take away that freedom that existed in the player who previously played without any thought of an injury happening to him and backs players seem to lose that little bit of pace and space awareness that they used to have for some reason....

I disagree as regards his inclusion in the top teams top 22 (maybe where, like Australia they suffer such an injury crisis) and even wonder how long he will play for Argentina..........................Although he would be very welcome for a season or two to play here in the SW!!

 

[psychic duck]

I think 2007 Hernandez was at his zenith and has been a shadow of that player since his injuries and will never recoup that fitness or confidence to enable him to display what was an incredible talent. I am also a very firm believer that serious injuries, never mind a run of them, take away that freedom that existed in the player who previously played without any thought of an injury happening to him and backs players seem to lose that little bit of pace and space awareness that they used to have for some reason....

I disagree as regards his inclusion in the top teams top 22 (maybe where, like Australia they suffer such an injury crisis) and even wonder how long he will play for Argentina..........................Although he would be very welcome for a season or two to play here in the SW!!

He could get into the South Africa team ahead of Kirchner who isn't great imo. Beale was great at 15 in 2010, but struggled this year and Cooper has also been on poor form for the Wallabies since the RWC 2011 so I would expect he would be some part of their squad, either at 10, 12 or 15. As for the All Blacks, he wouldn't get in the starting XV but could make the bench/squad as a utility back.

 

[Gavin]

Remember when Hernandez was preforming well for Argentina he had the great Agustin Pichot inside him. Not saying this made Hernandez the player he was in 2007, but it certainly helped.

 

[admartian]

Remember when Hernandez was preforming well for Argentina he had the great Agustin Pichot inside him. Not saying this made Hernandez the player he was in 2007, but it certainly helped.

Yeah but that's like saying Michael Jordan will take some attention off of you. Pichot carried that Pumas backline for so long.

 

[donmcdazzle]

He could get into the South Africa team ahead of Kirchner who isn't great imo. Beale was great at 15 in 2010, but struggled this year and Cooper has also been on poor form for the Wallabies since the RWC 2011 so I would expect he would be some part of their squad, either at 10, 12 or 15. As for the All Blacks, he wouldn't get in the starting XV but could make the bench/squad as a utility back.

Zero chance he replaces Beale for the Wallabies. I doubt he would get in ahead of Barnes at 10 either. And ok he might be about as good as Kirchner, but arguably so are Lambie and other Saffas. If they can't get in ahead of Kirchner then why would Hernandez?

Lastly, please enlighten me as to who Hernandez would replace in the AB squad let alone the matchday 22.