South African Youth Player Drain

profitius

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preseason friendlies against French teams, Cheetahs matches against pro 14 teams, and Then the Cheetahs are historically weaker than the big 4 of SA
The Cheetahs have some advantages.

1. They start their season earlier and then come up against pro14 teams who are not match fit.

2. They play at altitude which gives them a natural advantage especially combined with the first point.

3. The other pro14 sides missed their internationals a lot of the time.

4. The other pro14 sides have European matches throughout the season along with international matches.


It's not like for like when you compare super rugby to the pro14.
 

TRF_heineken

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Personally, I'm still for Europe if they'd have us if it'd mean we'd be seeing our best players play (both for and against us) assuming there really is more cash on the other side of the equator and we can add value to what is existing over there.

Either that or can the current SR setup, invest HEAVILY into the Currie Cup as our premier competition (assuming the other nations in SANZJAAR do the same in their dom comps) and have Super Rugby be a top 2/3 (depending on feeder nation and size/competitiveness of domestice league) teams from each nation tournament style competition and have a lower tier competition for the other teams. IE unbundle our own income from SANZJAAR. Also, strength vs strength will sell better.
Well let's see what happens when we revert back to Strength vs. Strength competition in SR. I'm pretty sure a lot of guys might return to SA when that model is back, plus SARU's new plan might also then be working a lot better.

We are being too hasty now. Let everything get sorted in our own house first and then look abroad.
 

TRF_Olyy

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3. The other pro14 sides missed their internationals a lot of the time
This can't be understated,
The extra rest weekends will be massive
 

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That’s the thing though isn’t it? The other teams has International players to lose. The Cheetahs does not. So the other teams losing their internationals just brings it down to equal footing. Two teams without internationals battling it out.
 

TRF_stormer2010

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Only time in recent history I can remember that the Cheetahs weren't effectively a feeder team was 2013 when they managed to retain a surprising number of players from the previous year and they made the SR play offs that year.
 

TRF_heineken

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Only time in recent history I can remember that the Cheetahs weren't effectively a feeder team was 2013 when they managed to retain a surprising number of players from the previous year and they made the SR play offs that year.
That's the unfortunate thing for the Cheetahs. They are basically a stepping stone for the guys from Grey. So many good players in that region but only that much space available. So the other unions try and get the best guys early, and if they don't those guys go to the Cheetahs, and wait until they get an offer from the other unions.
 

TRF_heineken

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Here's just one of the kids that's going abroad, Jason Nel, he signed with Perpignan:

 

mdaclarke

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Here's just one of the kids that's going abroad, Jason Nel, he signed with Perpignan:


If I was a French kid I would be so annoyed. Every import is reducing their chances of getting picked.
 

Steve-o

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Here's just one of the kids that's going abroad, Jason Nel, he signed with Perpignan:

Do you know what the story is behind him leaving? The way he plays reminds me of the du Preez twins in their school days.
 

TRF_heineken

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Do you know what the story is behind him leaving? The way he plays reminds me of the du Preez twins in their school days.
No idea, he was overlooked for Craven Week too, even though he is in Westvalia at school who participates in the Virseker series.
 

mdaclarke

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be better
Agreed, but it doesn't make it right, if countries are allowed to buy in players then we may as well not bother with national teams and stick with club competitions

What do you guys think of Jan Hendrick Wessels?
 

TRF_heineken

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Agreed, but it doesn't make it right, if countries are allowed to buy in players then we may as well not bother with national teams and stick with club competitions

What do you guys think of Jan Hendrick Wessels?
Oh yeah, he's a beast. can play lock and prop. Has some serious gas for a big guy.
 

LapoftheRugbyGods

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My take on this is that you can't look at rugby in a vacuum.

Rugby players have to deal with the same macro issues that face SA. Professional rugby player exodus would probably trend along the same rates as other professions.

If you feel your future is uncertain you look elsewhere.

For me there are 3 major layers contributing to this
  • Economy
  • Government interference
  • Contracting with Unions
The Rand is going down and down, with the next stop being junk status. Don't get me started on the ANC.

The government still has its non-value adding tentacles interwoven in sport and is creating unnecessary obstacles with race based policies.

My understanding of the Union structure in SA is that it's still very much has one foot in the amateur era and one foot in the pro era, in the way it operates at a national level. There are small Unions who have undue influence and are a drain on the system, spreading the money allocated by SA Rugby thinner. Apparently it's a legal nightmare hence why its never been truly changed. I understand that SA Rugby really wants to go the central contracting route like NZ and IRE. Probably a big reason why individual sponsorship is a key part of a player's income mix and I believe SA Rugby helps with this process.

What can Rassie influence:

Rassie can't do jack about the economy.

Now that he has the love of everyone, he might have the social credit to be able to push back on the ANCs selection policies. Highly unlikely though.

He's done really well at relationship building with the bigger Unions but it appears that is all in good faith. They have no obligation to listen as far as I understand. Doesn't solve the contracting issue though.
 

LapoftheRugbyGods

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ANC selection policies? Rassie and the Boks just won the RWC. you may of noticed. I think they are doing just fine. The difference is that Rassie unlike the previous coach was allowed to pick overseas based players like Kolbe, Faf, etc They seem to be doing very nicely. The pressure the Rugby union put on them to develop non white players seems to be paying off in spades. The huge potential of the black population is obvious to anyone it seems who's not a white South African.
 

TRF_heineken

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ANC selection policies? Rassie and the Boks just won the RWC. you may of noticed. I think they are doing just fine. The difference is that Rassie unlike the previous coach was allowed to pick overseas based players like Kolbe, Faf, etc They seem to be doing very nicely. The pressure the Rugby union put on them to develop non white players seems to be paying off in spades. The huge potential of the black population is obvious to anyone it seems who's not a white South African.
Okay, I'll bite, just for the sake of seeing how this pans out.

Development of youth, and the selection of players for the Springboks is 2 different things.

AC had the right to pick foreign based players, even though there was the 30-cap rule. That's all that changed, and even though that rule was enforced, AC still picked players playing overseas with less than 30 springbok caps.

There is definitely a huge potential in the black population in SA, nobody is disputing that. And you won't find many arguments with the players selected for the RWC last year, no matter the colour of their skin.

The issue has more to do with forcing teams to select players who are not on merit, and basically giving them a free pass to more game time at a higher level, when the quality is poor. And it's not just in rugby either. Vernon Philander is just the latest guy to talk about how he hates the quota/transformation policy in cricket.
 

mdaclarke

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Okay, I'll bite, just for the sake of seeing how this pans out.

Development of youth, and the selection of players for the Springboks is 2 different things.

AC had the right to pick foreign based players, even though there was the 30-cap rule. That's all that changed, and even though that rule was enforced, AC still picked players playing overseas with less than 30 springbok caps.

There is definitely a huge potential in the black population in SA, nobody is disputing that. And you won't find many arguments with the players selected for the RWC last year, no matter the colour of their skin.

The issue has more to do with forcing teams to select players who are not on merit, and basically giving them a free pass to more game time at a higher level, when the quality is poor. And it's not just in rugby either. Vernon Philander is just the latest guy to talk about how he hates the quota/transformation policy in cricket.

Shouldn't have quotas/targets. Just invest in good quality coaching at a young age (schools/age grade clubs) ensure that as far as possible everyone gets the same opportunity and the cream will rise to the top.

Quotas/targets are patronising and puts an * against every player who does make it.
 

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Can anyone put together a South African 15 currently in the 6 nations squads? This isn’t meant to be a wind up, but I find it quite fascinating that there are loads of South Africans playing for other countries and they produce so many quality players.
 

saulan

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Can anyone put together a South African 15 currently in the 6 nations squads? This isn’t meant to be a wind up, but I find it quite fascinating that there are loads of South Africans playing for other countries and they produce so many quality players.
You can’t make a full 15 and there weren’t any backs that I saw, this is what I came up with by skimming through the squads.
1 Allan Dell SCO
2
3 WP Nel SCO
4 Bernard Le Roux FRA
5 Paul Willemse FRA
6 Johan Meyer ITA
7 Braam Steyn ITA
8 CJ Stander IRE
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19 Cornell Du Preez SCO
20
21
22
23
 
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