Split: SavageLes protests that he's not a South African (but fails miserably)

[Duckdee]

but I lost all respect for PDV last year when he condoned eye gouging. How he was not sacked the moment he said that was part of the game is beyond me.

You're not alone.

 

[SavageLez]

It would be great if the World (All playing nations) could stand up for South Africa and tell the
SA government (sport minister) that they will only play them if the team is chosen purely on merit! The players are not going to say anything out of fear of getting dropped or not picked for their country in future.

Young South Africans are facing the brunt of what their ancestors did. They did what the present govt is trying to force on the Rugby teams now. At present there have to be at least 6 players of colour in a team. It does not matter if Garry Botha is better than Bandisa Maku. The list go's on - how can the rest of the world stand up to prevent this quota crap.

 

[SavageLez]

Oh well, that's South Africa, your problem to sort out. We only play you guys and whatever goes on in your own country is an issue for South Africans to deal with. Doing it to yourselves as a nation isn't an excuse really.

If South Africa is weak as a society in it's unity and working together, that's hardly the work of other countries to sort out for you. You get the team result of that.

Craig, how would you feel if Stephen Brett was put in the test side i.s.o Dan Carter due to race. South Africa have to endure this. Brett is a great player (just as many players of colour are) but he is not a Carter. The World should not allow this crap. New Zealand, Australia don't want this. You want to play the best Test team not the best politically correct team.

I also just want to stress this... I am not saying this because SA have lost a Test match because they have not yet this year. I would just like to see the best players vs. the best players.

 

[King_D'Arcy]

Let's be realistic here; if NZ had to play 6 coloured players Carter would be the last man to be dropped

 

[Iron Mike]

Craig, how would you feel if Stephen Brett was put in the test side i.s.o Dan Carter due to race. South Africa have to endure this. Brett is a great player (just as many players of colour are) but he is not a Carter. The World should not allow this crap. New Zealand, Australia don't want this. You want to play the best Test team not the best politically correct team.

I also just want to stress this... I am not saying this because SA have lost a Test match because they have not yet this year. I would just like to see the best players vs. the best players.

Sorry, but, who are we talking about here? Last time I checked, when South Africa won the tri-nations in 2009, they played the best possible 15.

1. Beast (black)
2. Du Plessis
3. Smit
4. Botha
5. Matfield
6. Brussow
7. Smith
8. Spies
9. Du Preez
10. Steyn
11. Habana (black)
12. JDV
13. Jacobs (black)
14. JP Pieterson (black)
15. F. Steyn

Now, some are block / coloured, whatever, but the fact is, those were the best players in South Africa at the time, Jaque Fourie was struggling with form until the Lions series and there was no other wing other than JP. Habana is a player of the year and Beast, well, he was setting the world on fire as being the best prop in the world. I don't know what you mean by this selection quota, maybe you don't agree with a few players being named in the squad and use the excuse that they are black and that is why they are there, but South Africa is not doing this. Parliament is telling them to, but the Boks is a business, and a private company, they have nothing to do with the government and there fore there is no official quota because there is no quota, only political pressure.

SARU = PRIVATE COMPANY

 

[TRF C A Iversen]

Let's be realistic here; if NZ had to play 6 coloured players Carter would be the last man to be dropped

If New Zealand had to play 6 coloured players as an obligation, that colour would be white. European players are almost a minority at that level in New Zealand rugby.

 

[admartian]

If New Zealand had to play 6 coloured players as an obligation, that colour would be white. European players are almost a minority at that level in New Zealand rugby.

Yeah but it's not like we have an institution (affirmative action) in place for that kinda stuff. It's pretty much picked on talent. Sure, there's politics involved, such as which player's more favoured by the coach; how long they've been playing, if they've been an AB before, if they've expressed signing overseas; etc etc. But I don't think that's based on skin colour, at all.

Though, so many of our players (in fact, a lot of our population) are of 'mixed-heritage' anyways. The only thing is people will choose to call them on their phenotypical traits, regardless of the fact that they may be of different ethnic backgrounds.

 

[SavageLez]

Let's be realistic here; if NZ had to play 6 coloured players Carter would be the last man to be dropped

I agree with you Craig/ King Darcy, Carter would be the last to be dropped (in New Zealand)! That is exactly what I am talking about.
In South Africa Francois Steyn gets dropped for Earl Rose or Conrad Jantjies (Come On).
The only reason Steyn played last year was because Jantjies (quota) was injured, it was no secret though that De villiers was planning to play Zane Kirchner (quality but not a Steyn) in his place. We beat the British Lions in the firast 2 tests with a good team. De Villiers then in his wisdom makes 9 changes, picks Earl Rose and Kirchner (who has never played an international) in the 3rd test. Surprise, surprise SA lose the 3rd test. Playing the Lions is a honour (once @ 12 years) but these guyz get debut against them. Where was Steyn and at the time Stefan Terblanche was the S14 's in form Fullback (not talking about this year). Steyn is not the only player. Adrian Jacobs gets the go ahead before quality players such as Jean De Villiers and Jaque Fourie, that is bull .....They are arguably the best centre combination in world rugby. Even Wynand Olivier is better. Thank goodness Jacobs is injured! He is good but again he is not of the same standard of the combo I mentioned!

Anyway, King Darcy, you proved my point. In New Zealand Carter would be the last man to be dropped.

 

[TRF C A Iversen]

Yeah but it's not like we have an institution (affirmative action) in place for that kinda stuff. It's pretty much picked on talent. Sure, there's politics involved, such as which player's more favoured by the coach; how long they've been playing, if they've been an AB before, if they've expressed signing overseas; etc etc. But I don't think that's based on skin colour, at all.

Though, so many of our players (in fact, a lot of our population) are of 'mixed-heritage' anyways. The only thing is people will choose to call them on their phenotypical traits, regardless of the fact that they may be of different ethnic backgrounds.

Yeah, but my point was mostly a tongue in cheek observation that when it comes to top flight rugby in our country, the Caucasian players are slightly the minority. It's not something I think anyone is worried about over here though.

 

[SavageLez]

Sorry, but, who are we talking about here? Last time I checked, when South Africa won the tri-nations in 2009, they played the best possible 15.

1. Beast (black)
2. Du Plessis
3. Smit
4. Botha
5. Matfield
6. Brussow
7. Smith
8. Spies
9. Du Preez
10. Steyn
11. Habana (black)
12. JDV
13. Jacobs (black)
14. JP Pieterson (black)
15. F. Steyn

Now, some are block / coloured, whatever, but the fact is, those were the best players in South Africa at the time, Jaque Fourie was struggling with form until the Lions series and there was no other wing other than JP. Habana is a player of the year and Beast, well, he was setting the world on fire as being the best prop in the world. I don't know what you mean by this selection quota, maybe you don't agree with a few players being named in the squad and use the excuse that they are black and that is why they are there, but South Africa is not doing this. Parliament is telling them to, but the Boks is a business, and a private company, they have nothing to do with the government and there fore there is no official quota because there is no quota, only political pressure.

SARU = PRIVATE COMPANY

Iron Mike: You are almost 100%. Yes, SA won the Tri Nations, why? Exactly as yo upointed out above. Most of those players deserved to be there! The only problem is that this selection is not consistent. I mentioned earlier- The coach picks arguably the best team in the first 2 tests against B/Lions. SA take a 2 nil lead against this very strong side. PdV then in his wisdom makes nine chnages so that his team can be politically correct. SA then lose and he blames the player and say's he can now see that certain players can not play at this level. As mentioned in an earlier post - it is an honour to play the Lions @12 years and there are players working hard to play against them. It is not fair on the Lions or the deserving players.

With regards to your statement about Jacobs and Fourie's form until Lions series. The Lions series was before the TRi Nations so again my point proven. Fourie scores the Try of Year (Literally voted as such) but Jacobs gets to start ahead of him in the Tri Nations. It is radiculous! I am not saying that these players are not good. What SA is saying is play the best player not the best quota player.

 

[SavageLez]

Sorry, but, who are we talking about here? Last time I checked, when South Africa won the tri-nations in 2009, they played the best possible 15.

SARU = PRIVATE COMPANY

SARU = PRIVATE COMPANY. Exactly my point, but that does not matter in South Africa. Did you not see what happened to all the PRIVATE COMPANIES in Zimbabwe. SA are run by the same balookers. A private company would not have any political pressure anywhere else. Our PRIVATE COMPANIES in SA have to be representative of coulour and this is determined by the size of your company. It is shocking that this is a requirement. If it is not adhered to then penalties are applied via SARS. Similarly in rugby, your coach get's sacked because the Directors want to keep their posts!

 

[Hamez]

I agree with you Craig/ King Darcy, Carter would be the last to be dropped (in New Zealand)! That is exactly what I am talking about.
In South Africa Francois Steyn gets dropped for Earl Rose or Conrad Jantjies (Come On).
The only reason Steyn played last year was because Jantjies (quota) was injured, it was no secret though that De villiers was planning to play Zane Kirchner (quality but not a Steyn) in his place. We beat the British Lions in the firast 2 tests with a good team. De Villiers then in his wisdom makes 9 changes, picks Earl Rose and Kirchner (who has never played an international) in the 3rd test. Surprise, surprise SA lose the 3rd test. Playing the Lions is a honour (once @ 12 years) but these guyz get debut against them. Where was Steyn and at the time Stefan Terblanche was the S14 's in form Fullback (not talking about this year). Steyn is not the only player. Adrian Jacobs gets the go ahead before quality players such as Jean De Villiers and Jaque Fourie, that is bull .....They are arguably the best centre combination in world rugby. Even Wynand Olivier is better. Thank goodness Jacobs is injured! He is good but again he is not of the same standard of the combo I mentioned!

Anyway, King Darcy, you proved my point. In New Zealand Carter would be the last man to be dropped.

Jantes was a good consistant attacking option for fullback, I would have picked him any day of the week over steyn. Why montgomery was dropped ill never know, he was in some of the best form of his life. Earl rose would have been brilliant back in 95, but these days he's just out of his depth. Zane kirchner is a pretty solid player, but dannilier should be the springbok fullback, in a very ordinary cheetahs backline he saved many tires and create alot from nothing. Why pick terblanche? he was over the hill, sure he was playing good rugby last year, but its not worth giving him a game, when you could give young guys a chance. Jacobs was playing well, de villiers went overseas and fourie wasn't playing that flash and he was injured alot last year. Olivier is def an inside centre, but doppies la grange would be a very good outside centre.

Steyn isnt being left out because he is white, its because he is inconsitent at his best he is a great player, but most games he is a very average player, he has a big boot but even then he is inconsistent, everyone remembers the big drop goals and penalty goals, but its very easy to forget the 3 he missed prior. Fullback is his best position tho because he has less chance to stuff things up.

 

[SavageLez]

Jantes was a good consistant attacking option for fullback, I would have picked him any day of the week over steyn. Why montgomery was dropped ill never know, he was in some of the best form of his life. Earl rose would have been brilliant back in 95, but these days he's just out of his depth. Zane kirchner is a pretty solid player, but dannilier should be the springbok fullback, in a very ordinary cheetahs backline he saved many tires and create alot from nothing. Why pick terblanche? he was over the hill, sure he was playing good rugby last year, but its not worth giving him a game, when you could give young guys a chance. Jacobs was playing well, de villiers went overseas and fourie wasn't playing that flash and he was injured alot last year. Olivier is def an inside centre, but doppies la grange would be a very good outside centre.

Steyn isnt being left out because he is white, its because he is inconsitent at his best he is a great player, but most games he is a very average player, he has a big boot but even then he is inconsistent, everyone remembers the big drop goals and penalty goals, but its very easy to forget the 3 he missed prior. Fullback is his best position tho because he has less chance to stuff things up.

I agree with you saying Jantjies was good, my point is that he was not the best at that point in time. We want the best vs. the best. Re Jaque Fourie's form, there was nothing wrong with it. Did you watch how well he played in the British Lions series, which was just before the tri nations. Now, how do you explain Earl Rose' inclusion if he can't even make the starting line up of the Lions (SA), and they are the worst rugby franchise in the Southern maybe even the Northen Hemisphere.

 

[Hamez]

I agree with you saying Jantjies was good, my point is that he was not the best at that point in time. We want the best vs. the best. Re Jaque Fourie's form, there was nothing wrong with it. Did you watch how well he played in the British Lions series, which was just before the tri nations. Now, how do you explain Earl Rose' inclusion if he can't even make the starting line up of the Lions (SA), and they are the worst rugby franchise in the Southern maybe even the Northen Hemisphere.

Jantes was the best at wat he did at the time, he counter attacked beautifully, he just isnt what you would call a traditional south african fullback, though it seems that alot of young guys are very counter attacking this year.

I can see what they saw in earl rose, a utility player, he has glimpses but he just never produced, hence why he isnt in the squad anymore.

I think the springboks coach would be the worst position in the world, you have heaps of the best players in the world, yet because of all the bullshit that goes on, not even the reverse racism that goes on you can't ever have the team you really want.

 

[Seaton]

I agree with you saying Jantjies was good, my point is that he was not the best at that point in time. We want the best vs. the best. Re Jaque Fourie's form, there was nothing wrong with it. Did you watch how well he played in the British Lions series, which was just before the tri nations. Now, how do you explain Earl Rose' inclusion if he can't even make the starting line up of the Lions (SA), and they are the worst rugby franchise in the Southern maybe even the Northen Hemisphere.

Jantjies was last played in 2008, there was no one better than him in 2008 (in terms of fullback) that could maintain a high level going towards the world cup, and btw I am a big fan of Terblanche.
As Hamez (or somone) posted, it was Fourie's injuries and the dip in form that he did have led to Jacobs being called up. Mind you he was the highest tri-scorer for the Boks of 2008, so the coaches faith was duely paid back.
Earl Rose was a first choice player for the Lions in the S14 last year, and he got played once for the Boks, and got brought along with the Springboks, to see if it could lift his game to the excellent levels he had in the 2008 CC campaign, which he couldn't, and hence the interest, and selection of him, has been dropped

Excatly what is your Scottish heritage?

 

[lucky number 7]

so your scottish eh?

and by your logic ireland are better than south africa....yet they got beaten heavily by an understrength NZ team ergo NZ are actually the best in the world ....HURRAH problem solved

 

[SavageLez]

I think the springboks coach would be the worst position in the world, you have heaps of the best players in the world, yet because of all the bullshit that goes on, not even the reverse racism that goes on you can't ever have the team you really want.

Totally agree with you. I should not pick on PdV, I would probably do the same if I was the coach and wanted to keep my job.
It is a petty. South Africa do really well considering the circumstances. Imagine how well they could do if they only had to deal with issues teams should face. Like injuries, tactics, form etc.

 

[Iron Mike]

South Africa don't have the best players in the world. The only played I would choose in a world XV is Fourie Du Preez, Victor Matfield and Schalk Burger.

I mean who is there? The front row is rubbish, without Matfield it is proven the Boks are even worse, the loosies have hardly dominated this year bar Schalk Burger and the backline can't even string an attack together. I'm sorry, but DPV deserves a medal, seriously, he is a fantastic coach and is winning games for the Boks. You shouldn't insult him, he is doing a fantastic job with the few ''world class'' players he has.

And as you have said, Morne Steyn, the best flyhalf?

Uh huh, his points average per game is 11.6 compared to Dan Carters 15.2 and Jonny Wilkinsons 13.7 and the biggest part of his game is his goalkicking, so you tell me then?

Nothing gets in the way of good old fashioned bias aye?

 

[lucky number 7]

I'm sorry, but DPV deserves a medal, seriously, he is a fantastic coach and is winning games for the Boks. You shouldn't insult him, he is doing a fantastic job with the few ''world class'' players he has.

if so....... lol

 

[SavageLez]

South Africa don't have the best players in the world. The only played I would choose in a world XV is Fourie Du Preez, Victor Matfield and Schalk Burger.

I mean who is there? The front row is rubbish, without Matfield it is proven the Boks are even worse, the loosies have hardly dominated this year bar Schalk Burger and the backline can't even string an attack together. I'm sorry, but DPV deserves a medal, seriously, he is a fantastic coach and is winning games for the Boks. You shouldn't insult him, he is doing a fantastic job with the few ''world class'' players he has.

And as you have said, Morne Steyn, the best flyhalf?

Uh huh, his points average per game is 11.6 compared to Dan Carters 15.2 and Jonny Wilkinsons 13.7 and the biggest part of his game is his goalkicking, so you tell me then?

Nothing gets in the way of good old fashioned bias aye?

Go and have a look at this website all your comments are a load of bull....
http://sport.iafrica.com/news/2317513.htm

Morne Steyn averages 18 points per game mate! Oh, and try adding Jaque Fourie (current best no.13 centre), Brian Habana (highest springbok try scorer and world great wing), Morne Steyn (currently best fly half), Jean De Villiers (top centre), Bismarck Du Plessis (currently injured but best hooker in the world), John Smit (best captain not player in the world), Juan Smith (brilliant flank), Bakkies Botha (Best no.4 lock in the world) and Pierre Spies (brilliant 8th man, top 3 in the world) to that list. They are responsible for a great Springbok era and would be welcome in any international test side!