Split: SavageLes protests that he's not a South African (but fails miserably)

[Iron Mike]

International is different from Super 14 and Steyn has proved how bad he can be with the end of year tour last year. Conrad Smith is top dog, and he will prove that in the upcoming Tri-Nations now that Brian O'Driscoll has fallen way behind Jaque Fourie and Conrad Smith, Bryan Habana is a one dimensional player, Jean De Villiers struggled to make the Munster team 1st XV until the late end of the season, who aren't really known for their backline, Biismarck Du Plessis is brilliant but not the best in the world, John Smit (are you joking?), the list will go on and on.

Why don't we just settle on the fact that they are playing each other twice (All Blacks vs Boks) in a few weeks, and whoever wins that or both will be the best team. I'm sick of debating with biased people.

I'm French by the way, before you start pulling any crap about being biased towards the All Blacks. They do have the best players in the world right now, the problem is they are split over 5 franchises, if you look at the team sheet there are about 6 players from each Super 14 franchise usually, with about 2-3 normally from the Highlanders. The ELV's were also extremely weird last year and I think this year will be the year to see top quality rugby and I'm quite confident in the fact that the Bok fans are going to be mocked for their arrogance over this last year, despite losing to France and Ireland.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Dan Carter is the current best flyhalf
Habana isn't the greatest wing either, he's insanely overrated

 

[SavageLez]

South Africa are also split over 5 Franchises (Bulls, Stormers, Sharks, Cheetahs and Lions) in the Super 14 and 2 SA sides (Bulls & Stormers) made this years (2010 new laws ) Super 14 final and the Bulls have won 3 of the the last 4 Super 14 tournies!

If NZ win the Tri Nations this year great! It would be really good for the sport. SA have won the last 3 matches in a row against the AB so it can only be good for the game and the supporters. Oh, bye the way Mike, SA and thrashed France about 2 weeks ago under the NEW laws!

 

[Iron Mike]

Zero players from the Lions, two from the Cheetahs, but both injured, the front row from the Sharks and the rest from the Stormers and the Bulls? I don't get your point. Plus the Bulls have won 2007, 2009, 2010. 2008 I believe went to the Crusaders.

But look at the Hurricanes, Blues, Chiefs and the Crusaders, all have a fairly even amount of All Blacks in them, not all clustered to one team or two.

Sorry, three from the Sharks, JP Pieterson aswell.

Now if you look at the Super 14 franchises from New Zealand, 8 from the Blues, 6 from the Hurricanes, 2 from the Chiefs (two injured), 3 from the Highlanders, Crusaders 8.

Something like that anyway.

I said it before and I'll say it again, nothing gets in the way of good old fashioned bias.

 

[SavageLez]

Zero players from the Lions, two from the Cheetahs, but both injured, the front row from the Sharks and the rest from the Stormers and the Bulls? I don't get your point. Plus the Bulls have won 2007, 2009, 2010. 2008 I believe went to the Crusaders.

But look at the Hurricanes, Blues, Chiefs and the Crusaders, all have a fairly even amount of All Blacks in them, not all clustered to one team or two.

Sorry, three from the Sharks, JP Pieterson aswell.

These players are all springboks:

Lions = Jano Vermaak (injured), Waylon Murray (injured and moved from Sharks), Wikus Van Heerden, Earl Rose, Tonderai Chavange and Heinke Van der Merwe
Cheetahs = Jongie Nokwe, Juan Smith (Leave), Basson, Meyer Bosman, Heinrich Brussouw (injured).
Sharks: Front row, Kankowski, Hargreaves, Ruan Pienaar, JP Pieterson (injured)

That is my point!

 

[Iron Mike]

Jongie Nokwe isn't in the squad, Juan Smith is injured, Meyer Bosman is, Heinrich Brussouw is injured and Wikus Van Heerden isn't in the squad either.

So, my bad, one player, which is Meyer Bosman from the Cheetahs, a real victory for you there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Africa_national_rugby_union_team#Current_squad

Apparently this guy is in the squad aswell, Bjorn Basson, never heard of him but there you go.

Do look at the list, most are Bulls / Stormers.

 

[SavageLez]

Dan Carter is the current best flyhalf

See below all Morne Steyn has achieved of late:
Records
World record for most points scored by a player who has scored all their team's points (31).
South African record for penalties in a test (8) - beating the seven achieved twice by former fullback and now kicking coach of South Africa, Percy Montgomery.
All of the above records achieved with his 31 points scored in the Tri Nations 2009 match against the All Blacks in Durban on 1 Aug 09[6]
South African record for most points in a test against Australia.
Fastest 100 points by a Springbok (8 Test matches)[7]
Most drop-goals in a Super 14 season (11).
Most points scored against the All Blacks for a Springbok (31).
Most points in a Tri-Nations match (31), passing Christophe Lamaison's 29.
Most drop goals in a Super 14 game (4) (in the 2009 semi-final against the Crusaders)
Most points in a Super Rugby season (263) - Beating Dan Carter's record of 221 set in 2006.

 

[SavageLez]

My point proven. I am talking current form. Dan Carter has no doubt been the best fly half for years now! He is getting a little slow (since he broke his leg) and quickly coming down from the peak he has been on for the last couple of years!

 

[SavageLez]

lol..............

 

[ranger]

My point proven. I am talking current form. Dan Carter has no doubt been the best fly half for years now! He is getting a little slow (since he broke his leg) and quickly coming down from the peak he has been on for the last couple of years!

Why are you still digging? This whole thread, right from the ***le all the way to the last post you have made is a giant joke at your expense. You are just making things worse for yourself, it was funny at first but now its getting kind of cringeworthy.

 

[Iron Mike]

I reckon everyone should just ignore rugbywriter and SavageLez, like I am preparing to do. Worthless opinions.

 

[SavageLez]

Jongie Nokwe isn't in the squad, Juan Smith is injured, Meyer Bosman is, Heinrich Brussouw is injured and Wikus Van Heerden isn't in the squad either.

So, my bad, one player, which is Meyer Bosman from the Cheetahs, a real victory for you there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Africa_national_rugby_union_team#Current_squad

Apparently this guy is in the squad aswell, Bjorn Basson, never heard of him but there you go.


Do look at the list, most are Bulls / Stormers.

Obviously the majority of the test squad will come from the Stormers and the Bulls. They are getting rewarded for reaching and winning the Super 14 Finals, duh.
That is a no brainer. I am merely saying that South Africa also have 5 teams in the Super 14 and that all of them have springboks as showed. It goes without saying that your majority of your Springboks will come from the top 2 performing teams.

NZ only had the Crusaders who performed hence 8 players, and it is not SA's fault if NZ want to dilute there team further by picking players from unions who have under performed.
Bye the way, what has that got to do with South Africa having some of the Best Players in the world anyway?!

 

[SavageLez]

Why are you still digging? This whole thread, right from the ***le all the way to the last post you have made is a giant joke at your expense. You are just making things worse for yourself, it was funny at first but now its getting kind of cringeworthy.

Ranger, Mike and I were were throwing our view points at eachother. I am sorry if I have insulted you. Don't read my threads if theybother you.
I do want you to know this. SA's form will obviously not last and I know this. After the 2011 World Cup there will be many players that retire and SA will have to rebuild.
I am just voicing my opinions on the current team. When SA go through their trough, and they will, I will acknowlegde and sing the praises of the TEAM that sets the benchmark at that time.

 

[SavageLez]

Jongie Nokwe isn't in the squad, Juan Smith is injured, Meyer Bosman is, Heinrich Brussouw is injured and Wikus Van Heerden isn't in the squad either.

So, my bad, one player, which is Meyer Bosman from the Cheetahs, a real victory for you there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Africa_national_rugby_union_team#Current_squad

Apparently this guy is in the squad aswell, Bjorn Basson, never heard of him but there you go.

Do look at the list, most are Bulls / Stormers.

I said: These players are all Springboks, I did not say they were in the squad!

 

[Iron Mike]

Why doesn't everyone voice their opinions of the Tri-Nations teams until they have all played each other, because both sides have shown good form lately, and who knows, with a few Wallabies returning to action in the next month, could we see a surprise scalp by the Wallabies?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

See below all Morne Steyn has achieved of late:
Records
World record for most points scored by a player who has scored all their team's points (31).
South African record for penalties in a test (8) - beating the seven achieved twice by former fullback and now kicking coach of South Africa, Percy Montgomery.
All of the above records achieved with his 31 points scored in the Tri Nations 2009 match against the All Blacks in Durban on 1 Aug 09[6]
South African record for most points in a test against Australia.
Fastest 100 points by a Springbok (8 Test matches)[7]
Most drop-goals in a Super 14 season (11).
Most points scored against the All Blacks for a Springbok (31).
Most points in a Tri-Nations match (31), passing Christophe Lamaison's 29.
Most drop goals in a Super 14 game (4) (in the 2009 semi-final against the Crusaders)
Most points in a Super Rugby season (263) - Beating Dan Carter's record of 221 set in 2006.

You seem to base the ***le of "best flyhalf" on how many penalties/dropgoals they kick a season. Obviously kicking for goal is a big part of being a flyhalf, but the rest of their game is very important as well (probably more so these days, when there are often several solid goal kickers in a squad). Why do you think Ronan O'Gara/Johnny Wilkinson aren't considered the best in the world? They're good goal kicker, but are surpassed in other areas by other players.
Carters all round game is superior to Steyns imo, nearly every time he gets the ball something quality happens.
Did you watch the first NZ/Wales test? He was magic.

 

[SavageLez]

Why doesn't everyone voice their opinions of the Tri-Nations teams until they have all played each other, because both sides have shown good form lately, and who knows, with a few Wallabies returning to action in the next month, could we see a surprise scalp by the Wallabies?

I totally agree with you Mike,

I wanted to add that to my post but did not bother. I think NZ and SA need to be wary of the Ozzies. They have a potent side capable of beating any team on a given day!
Quade Cooper is a magician and they are in a position right now where every player is fighting for his spot in the side. They do look a little bit weak in the front row but I don't believe to such an extent that hey can't exploit teams with their fantastic backs!

 

[SavageLez]

You seem to base the ***le of "best flyhalf" on how many penalties/dropgoals they kick a season. Obviously kicking for goal is a big part of being a flyhalf, but the rest of their game is very important as well (probably more so these days, when there are often several solid goal kickers in a squad). Why do you think Ronan O'Gara isn't considered the best in the world? He's a good goal kicker, but is surpassed in other areas by other players.
Carters all round game is superior to Steyns imo, nearly every time he gets the ball something quality happens.
Did you watch the first NZ/Wales test? He was magic.

Olyy, Go have a look at this sire: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Super_14_season#Leading_try_scorers

Not only did Morne Steyn break the points record and almost double Dan Carter's score but he also scored the most tries by any fly half in the tournament and was instrumental in the Bulls scoring the most tries out of all the Super 14 teams this year. A total of 51 tries scored this season!

 

[lucky number 7]

just give up....dan carter is a magician ...morne steyn is a good kicker....but dan carter pulls trys from his ass and is spearheading the most devastating backline in world rugby

 

[SavageLez]

just give up....dan carter is a magician ...morne steyn is a good kicker....but dan carter pulls trys from his ass and is spearheading the most devastating backline in world rugby

Listen, Dan Carter is a magician and wow he was great when he was on top of his game. He is showing glimpses of that again in the winter incoming tour matches.

All I am saying really is that Morne Steyn is performing better than him at present. Morne Steyn was nominated and awarded the SUPER 14 Player of the year. He was the top try (5 tries) scoring fly half in this years Super 14 and overall points scorer in 2009 and 2010 Super 14. He was also very influentual in the Bulls scoring 51 tries, the most in this years Super 14.

Dan Carter only scored 1 try the entire Super 14 and contributed to only 34 of the Crusaders 46 tries this season as he was rested against the Lions and the Cheetahs where Colin Slade played and 12 tries were scored.