The Autopsy thread: Which England team members are for the chopping block?

[Willodell100]

It's all coming out now! No wonder the players don't want to give their feedback.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/34465164

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I feel for Cips turned down a big pay check for nothing.

 

[Every Time Ref]

I'm wary of reading too much into that story - all the RFU have confirmed is yes, there was some sort of altercation between Cat and Cipriani. I'm sure differences of opinion are ten a penny in training sessions between competitive alpha males*, it doesn't make any of the surrounding stories about a player mutiny or Catt threatening to end Cips' career true.

I also think, whatever the truth of of this incident, Cipriani has shown an admirable amount of loyalty to England and clearly wants to be a part of the set up. I hope he gets a chance in future.

* let's assume for the sake of argument, despite what we saw on Saturday, that England's players and coaches are competitive alpha males ...

 

[ncurd]

It doesn't make any sense why would Catt threaten to ruin Cips career if he was already dropped?

Still as said Cips in the public has been a true gent he even said no Australian would make it in the England team instead of saying Pocock will eat us for breakfast.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

It doesn't make any sense why would Catt threaten to ruin Cips career if he was already dropped?

Still as said Cips in the public has been a true gent he even said no Australian would make it in the England team instead of saying Pocock will eat us for breakfast.

If Lancaster was coach I genuinely don't think any of the Australians would make it into the England team. Especially not hooper or pocock!

 

[Jakedood]

By end his career I think the paper means he threatened to "end" cipriani, as in take him out in a knuckle shuffle. Cips isn't exactly the quiet type though, I'd dare say he knows what a bar fight looks like

 

[PacDuran]

If Lancaster was coach I genuinely don't think any of the Australians would make it into the England team. Especially not hooper or pocock!

Haha neither would even get the bench. Lancaster would have 15 blindside flankers on the pitch if he could swing it.

 

[RedruthRFC]

I think the trouble is England need to stay shoulder to shoulder with the premiership clubs which imo is very important . They are in charge of bringing all the talent through ..

+1 as I have said already in the thread (IIRC). The RFU pay the clubs good money for players to be released and have the carrot over players of the opportunity of England caps. Whoever is in charge of the England setup needs to understand this and start throwing their weight around IMO. Not meaning to pick on them, but Exeter (probably my favourite AP club, so maybe why they come to mind as an example) are a case in point. You have Henry Slade and Jack Nowell being shunted around the back line from pillar to post to suit the club's needs, the national coach needs to decide what position he wants them to be playing and make sure they get the vast majority of their game time there. Similarly you have Dave Ewers whose value to England would be much greater if he was a legitimate tail option in the lineout (something he could work on with Exeter) and Luke Cowan-Dickie who will now presumably play second fiddle to a fit again Jack Yeandle who was named as club captain today (this in itself should say something to England selectors, particularly in view of the lack of leadership options). Maybe somewhat draconian, but the national coach is holding most of the cards - if clubs can't or won't comply with these kinds of requests, players need to be told to find a club that will or consider their international chances much hampered.

- - - Updated - - -

Alot of people have been mentioning Devoto lately but he needs to get alot more game time at Bath instead of being second choice to Eastmond, both are candidates for the England 12 shirt.

In which case, if he has genuine international ambitions, he needs to move to a club that will offer him a starting shirt. IIRC 36 didn't get a look in with England until he moved to Gloucester and started playing 12 regularly.

 

[Every Time Ref]

In which case, if he has genuine international ambitions, he needs to move to a club that will offer him a starting shirt. IIRC 36 didn't get a look in with England until he moved to Gloucester and started playing 12 regularly.

Not necessarily, there are rumours around of Eastmond going back to league, even if not his form slumped towards the end of the season while Devoto's few games at 12 were generally good. Combined with Burgess being a blindside in Ford's (and my, and everyone except Lancaster/Farrell's) eyes, Devoto could end up in possession of the shirt next year. Personally I'd like to see it, I think he's got a lot of potential, and Ford-Devoto-Joseph offers a balance which Ford-Eastmond-Joseph lacks sometimes.

 

[TommiG88]

I like Eastmond and his slumped when he got dropped from England for no reason.

 

[ncurd]

I like Eastmond and his slumped when he got dropped from England for no reason.

5ft 7in
13st 1lb

I didn't realise he was that small, hell he's shorter than me although 2 stone heavier and I'm nowhere near rugby size.

 

[The Jones Boy]

I feel for Cips turned down a big pay check for nothing.

Maybe not, maybe he will be a part of what ever happens after the RWC.

 

[Willodell100]

5ft 7in
13st 1lb

I didn't realise he was that small, hell he's shorter than me although 2 stone heavier and I'm nowhere near rugby size.

But size isn't everything. Eastmond has brilliant feet, very good handling and is a nasty son of a gun to tackle as his centre of gravity is so low.

I know the international level is a step up but he seems to cope alright with massive men running down his and Ford's channel at Bath week in week out!

I understand the midfield is all about balance but you could quite happily bring in Tuilagi in at 13 if you want a bit more power next to Eastmond at 12.

Understandably Joseph has the shirt at the moment.

 

[TommiG88]

5ft 7in
13st 1lb

I didn't realise he was that small, hell he's shorter than me although 2 stone heavier and I'm nowhere near rugby size.

How big is O Connor? He never had the too small for international rugby. Shame about his love for the drink. With a better pack/back row a player like Eastmond would be amazing. Eastmond at his best is mesmerising and the amount of space he makes would be taken by the likes of may and Watson.

With the back row we have though, we can't have him as we defend most of the time.

 

[Hulkster]

But size isn't everything. Eastmond has brilliant feet, very good handling and is a nasty son of a gun to tackle as his centre of gravity is so low.

I know the international level is a step up but he seems to cope alright with massive men running down his and Ford's channel at Bath week in week out!

I understand the midfield is all about balance but you could quite happily bring in Tuilagi in at 13 if you want a bit more power next to Eastmond at 12.

Understandably Joseph has the shirt at the moment.

Indeed.

The bath midfield is Ford, Eastmond and Joseph.

I don't think you could get any smaller than that, yet they got to the final last year.

That means they outperformed all but one team, all of whom had significantly bigger players in midfield.

A big midfield will not automatically overrun a small one.

 

[Every Time Ref]

Indeed.

The bath midfield is Ford, Eastmond and Joseph.

I don't think you could get any smaller than that, yet they got to the final last year.

That means they outperformed all but one team, all of whom had significantly bigger players in midfield.

A big midfield will not automatically overrun a small one.

But when we were beaten it was when we got smashed upfront so the backs couldn't get decent front-foot ball - maybe a target man in the midfield to get is going forward first phase could have given Ford and JJ the quick ball they need to find gaps in the second and third phases?

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I still think Ford has yet to develop a game where he can be successful behind a backwards pack.

 

[ncurd]

I still think Ford has yet to develop a game where he can be successful behind a backwards pack.

Does Farrell or Slade have that either?

 

[Hulkster]

No one is going to look impressive if the pack is going backwards.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Does Farrell or Slade have that either?

Farrell does.

No one is going to look impressive if the pack is going backwards.

Cips manages it with Sale (sorry Olyy but I have seen your pack go backwards plenty of time).

But he doesn't have to be impressive but I feel he lacks the ability to change his play when getting slow ball.