The Autopsy thread: Which England team members are for the chopping block?

[TRF_Olyy]

Cips manages it with Sale (sorry Olyy but I have seen your pack go backwards plenty of time).

No arguments from me, I was about to say the same.

 

[Every Time Ref]

I still think Ford has yet to develop a game where he can be successful behind a backwards pack.

Personally I think his method should be kick high for his wings to challenge, but for Bath he doesn't do it enough and for England he doesn't have the chasers.

No 10 in the world looks good behind a beaten pack but Farrell does look more adequate than Ford. But then, if you're picking a 10 because of how well he plays behind a beaten pack then maybe you want to be focussing your energy on the pack...?

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Those minutes played stats are amazing. In 4 years;

* 72 players
* 10 wingers + Brown + Manu
* 9 centres
* 8 fly halves!
* 8 hookers, 5 of which have played 75 mins or less.

Pretty damning really.

 

[nealn]

Those minutes aged stats are amazing. In 4 years;

* 72 players
* 10 wingers + Brown + Manu
* 9 centres
* 8 fly halves!
* 8 hookers, 5 of which have played 75 mins or less.

Pretty damning really.

Should really be 10 centres and 7 fly-halves as they have Slade listed as a FH when he's only played for England as a centre. Still damning of course... Maybe more so. In fact it should be 10 centres+Farrell (as he has played there a few times) and 7 fly-halves. Goes to show how undecided SL has been about the midfield throughout his reign.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

In fact Farrell and Flood have played a decent amount of time @ 12 under Lancaster.

That is 13 different centers in 45 games.

 

[Wendigo7]

Farrell does.



Cips manages it with Sale (sorry Olyy but I have seen your pack go backwards plenty of time).

But he doesn't have to be impressive but I feel he lacks the ability to change his play when getting slow ball.

Disagree with Farrell. He's a poor tactical kicker for the corners unlike Sexton. He can kick goals and Ford has a better ratio regardless of how people about Ford under pressure.

He shoots out of the line defensively and is a liability. I don't really feel any 10 can do it under pressure well atm. There really isn't the young Michalak or Spencer around. Sexton at a pinch has potential with the type of game he has. That's it though.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Personally I think his method should be kick high for his wings to challenge, but for Bath he doesn't do it enough and for England he doesn't have the chasers.

No 10 in the world looks good behind a beaten pack but Farrell does look more adequate than Ford. But then, if you're picking a 10 because of how well he plays behind a beaten pack then maybe you want to be focussing your energy on the pack...?

I know the **** rep he has here but Bananaman (banahan) really is very good at the kick chase game, one of the stronger winger in the air. I don't trust May to do that. Watson can but again, he ins't as strong as Banners.

 

[Every Time Ref]

I know the **** rep he has here but Bananaman (banahan) really is very good at the kick chase game, one of the stronger winger in the air. I don't trust May to do that. Watson can but again, he ins't as strong as Banners.

And Roko of course.

In the World Cup squad / players currently on the England radar, only Brown can be relied upon to regularly regather up and unders. Add Roko (and Banahan ... lolz ... ) to the mix and we'd be adding an extra weapon to our game. Our kicking game is pretty ****e at the moment.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

And Roko of course.

In the World Cup squad / players currently on the England radar, only Brown can be relied upon to regularly regather up and unders. Add Roko (and Banahan ... lolz ... ) to the mix and we'd be adding an extra weapon to our game. Our kicking game is pretty ****e at the moment.

Roko should have been in this world cup. Watson is good but his future is at FB, not wing. Brown was stuffed on the wing for ages by Lancaster and the first 6N where he plays FB, he gets man of the tourney. I'm not a fan of treating FBs as wingers and I think moving forward, Roko should be on the right wing and Watson taking over at FB. Roko on form doesn't seem to have any weaknesses, he is the ideal all-round strong winger.

 

[blackcat]

I understand Ford is not the finished article and has looked poor in a couple of games on the back foot.
Two games though where I thought he was impressive where the Bath pack weren't in control were, the AV semi final and the European game against Leinster.
Although I may have read these games wrong as I haven't seen anyone else mention them:lol:.

 

[Peat]

To finally answer the OP's post...

I will accept any England player if the new coach can get them performing in their game plan, except maybe Calum Clark. It's easy to say "Get rid, not good enough, they failed", but the coaches failed them (and they failed them back) and another coach could change a lot. The difference in Ireland under Kidney and Schmidt is a good example of that.

However, I'd be really worried by any coach that looked at Brad Barritt or Dylan Hartley as mainstays.

Barritt simply because I don't want to see a very negative style and it would lead to undue criticism of the regime, win or lose. I'm not asking for King Carlos style tactics but there has to be a demand for exciting rugby.

Hartley is because you can't trust him and he doesn't offer enough to compensate for that in my opinion. I don't want to tell coaches what to do but equally I don't think anyone who accepts Hartley's indiscipline is right for the job and I don't think anyone who can't find another hooker is either.

The following players have been underperforming for a while and it would be a surprising level of up-turn for them to be good enough although sometimes needs must (imo)

Tom Wood - Seems to have lost his speed and power
Alex Corbisiero - *gigantic sigh*
Alex Goode - Not quick enough or physical enough

Next category are those who clearly can contribute at international level but have pretty major gaps in their game that will make it difficult for them

Chris Robshaw - No gas
James Haskell - No brain
Nick Easter - Is a zombie, although arguably better for it
Ben Youngs - Sketchy tekkers, tendency to crab, still our best scrum-half
Richard Wigglesworth - No break, takes forever to shift the ball
Danny Care - No kicking game
Owen Farrell - No spontaneity
George Ford - Questionable composure and defence
Luthor Burrell - Softest big lad around
Billy Twelvetrees - Flustercluck machine
Sam Burgess - Sam Burgess
Mike Brown - Worry list of big game flubs, no distribution

Now we have the guys who have the ability and no real gaps but are in such god-awful form that they're on offer anyway

Joe Marler - It's a scrum deal
Mako Vunipola - Ditto
Dan Cole - Ditto
Kieran Brookes - Ditto
Tom Youngs - Ditto, with throwing, although that's exaggerated
Rob Webber - Throwing
Courtney Lawes - Scrum, maul, lineout calling
Geoff Parling - Scrum... wait, why have I just named nearly every tight five forward
Ben Morgan - Probably not fit. Boo.

I think that's it.

So... basically, Launchbury, Bunipola, Joseph and the wings are safe, and everyone else should be considered vulnerable (mainly unknown quantities not considered). A lot of them will be back though.

 

[TJAY]

Lancaster
'small margins and big consequences'

Small margins, the story for 4 years now.

Big consequences ? Who for ?

....Didn't he just get a new contract ?

The only consequences are to the supporters who paid £200 for a seat.

All the players/staff still get paid and make a nice living out of all this failure.

 

[PacDuran]

To finally answer the OP's post...

I will accept any England player if the new coach can get them performing in their game plan, except maybe Calum Clark. It's easy to say "Get rid, not good enough, they failed", but the coaches failed them (and they failed them back) and another coach could change a lot. The difference in Ireland under Kidney and Schmidt is a good example of that.

However, I'd be really worried by any coach that looked at Brad Barritt or Dylan Hartley as mainstays.

Barritt simply because I don't want to see a very negative style and it would lead to undue criticism of the regime, win or lose. I'm not asking for King Carlos style tactics but there has to be a demand for exciting rugby.

Hartley is because you can't trust him and he doesn't offer enough to compensate for that in my opinion. I don't want to tell coaches what to do but equally I don't think anyone who accepts Hartley's indiscipline is right for the job and I don't think anyone who can't find another hooker is either.

The following players have been underperforming for a while and it would be a surprising level of up-turn for them to be good enough although sometimes needs must (imo)

Tom Wood - Seems to have lost his speed and power
Alex Corbisiero - *gigantic sigh*
Alex Goode - Not quick enough or physical enough

Next category are those who clearly can contribute at international level but have pretty major gaps in their game that will make it difficult for them

Chris Robshaw - No gas
James Haskell - No brain
Nick Easter - Is a zombie, although arguably better for it
Ben Youngs - Sketchy tekkers, tendency to crab, still our best scrum-half
Richard Wigglesworth - No break, takes forever to shift the ball
Danny Care - No kicking game
Owen Farrell - No spontaneity
George Ford - Questionable composure and defence
Luthor Burrell - Softest big lad around
Billy Twelvetrees - Flustercluck machine
Sam Burgess - Sam Burgess
Mike Brown - Worry list of big game flubs, no distribution

Now we have the guys who have the ability and no real gaps but are in such god-awful form that they're on offer anyway

Joe Marler - It's a scrum deal
Mako Vunipola - Ditto
Dan Cole - Ditto
Kieran Brookes - Ditto
Tom Youngs - Ditto, with throwing, although that's exaggerated
Rob Webber - Throwing
Courtney Lawes - Scrum, maul, lineout calling
Geoff Parling - Scrum... wait, why have I just named nearly every tight five forward
Ben Morgan - Probably not fit. Boo.

I think that's it.

So... basically, Launchbury, Bunipola, Joseph and the wings are safe, and everyone else should be considered vulnerable (mainly unknown quantities not considered). A lot of them will be back though.

Agree nearly totally accept on George Forde and Tom Youngs. These guys must have faith put in them, and I think with time they will become top players in their positions and probable 2nd choice Lions. You forgot to mention Billy Vunipola needs to shed a serious amount of butter. He's fat and unfit, no excuse for a number 8 not to be able to play 70 mins at minimum.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Owen Farrell - No spontaneity
George Ford - Questionable composure and defence

Sorry but how can you question Ford's compure and not Farrells? Farrell is a hothead who frequently tackles late, concedes penalties and gets carded. Ford doesn't.

 

[McTallshort]

I think what peat is saying is that Ford misses a couple of penalties and his head drops a bit like Charlie hodgsons used to. He is still our best 10 IMO although I would like Cips to get another shot

 

[Peat]

It's a fair point though. Farrell does get rushes of blood to the head that are a liability. I was trying to put down the key point to keep it brief but someone needs to have a talk with Farrell about his discipline.

In Ford's case, I was mainly thinking about his option taking. I feel like when the pressure hits, he starts to look for the miracle play. He did use to be like that with his goalkicking I think, but hasn't been for a while. It would be interesting to see stats for how many games goal kickers have where they hit less than 50% of the kicks.

edit: Ford probably is still our best fly-half though, or least he's the best of those we've trialled seriously. I too would like to see where we stood with Cipriani, who I think doesn't have the same high end any more but seems far less likely to dip in form.

PacDuran - Vunipola did the full 80 in the 6N everytime this year with no issues. He's fit enough. He's also lost 10kg since then, so he should be even fitter. I suspect I'd prefer it if he was even bigger instead and am curious to see what Saracens make of this.

I like what Tom Youngs offers and think it would take a serious player to shift from the line up but his flaws do make it possible & desirable and in Jamie George I think we might have that player: big, mobile, great core skills.

Similar place with George Ford - Cipriani and Slade might threaten him, although we'll see next season.

edit edit: Speaking of weight loss, going by what the RFU says now on their site and what their club sites say/said, Dan Cole is down 5kg, Joe Marler down 6kg, TYoungs down 3kg, Dave Wilson down 1kg, Webber weighs the same, Mako's down 9kg, George weighs the same, Brookes weighs the same... Not the most reliable sources (as in nothing's reliable for how much rugby players weigh), but seems to point to a fair bit of weight lost by our first choice front row, who suddenly looked worse at scrummaging. Joe Marler in particular did not need to lose 6kg.

 

[Kiwi_]

Why hasn't England changed it to the "ERFU", the "RFU" suggests they're the Rugby Union in the world lol.

 

[Tony Manx]

Why hasn't England changed it to the "ERFU", the "RFU" suggests they're the Rugby Union in the world lol.

Same reason it's "The Open" not "The British Open" in golf I guess......it was the first?

 

[Kiwi_]

Same reason it's "The Open" not "The British Open" in golf I guess......it was the first?

Fair enough I guess. But still, I think they should make an effort to distinguish themselves by adding England.

 

[Tony Manx]

Fair enough I guess. But still, I think they should make an effort to distinguish themselves by adding England.

Can see that but if everyone else calls their union including their country name......i.e. Welsh Rugby Union or NZRU..........why bother?!!!