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The Autopsy thread: Which England team members are for the chopping block?

I think it's fair to say England haven't unearthed a second holy trinity backrow (Back, Hill & Dallaglio) but we need to remember those three players were exceptional and all deserved England captain material. We can sit there bemoan this that and the other all we like but not being able to find three perfectly balanced world class back row players to play at the same time as each other? C'mon we were pretty lucky to have it once.

TheJonesBoy shut up seriously just shut it about Burgess at center he's not going to ever play at center again in his entire Rugby Union career. I know you like the player but he's a 6 shall always be a 6 and anybody and I mean anybody apart form Farrell & Lancaster who has seen him play there agrees. He's not the answer and never was ,he folly of him playing is partially how we screwed up.

I have to agree with you on this, Burgess will i'm sure have an international future as a blindside, if I was a member of Bath's coaching staff I would be pretty upset with Lancaster and Farrell, the decision to play him at centre defies logic, almost falls into the same bracket as Bergamasco playing scrum half for Italy a couple of years back.
 
Rumours I've heard don't have Lancaster giving out the assurances.

Also... we were winning the match when Burgess came off. We'd lost it against Australia by the time he'd gone on. Nobody of serious quality was left out because of him.

I'm not sure why anyone cares about this really. Simply based on what happened on the pitch, Burgess at 12 was... not that bad? Massively less of an issue then a lot of other things?

I still completely understand why they did what they did and am puzzled as to why everyone thinks they had no idea of what was going on.
Well I don't think it's a reason why we went out. I just point to it as incompetency due to his development as a player. I mean why do all this just for a player who just "didn't screw up" at inside center. He may not be the reason why we lost those games but he was never going to win them for us either. I mean I'm pretty sure Burrell who actually has international caps would of managed just as well.

I think ultimately I care as a Bath fan more as I want him at any stage to be the best he can possibly be at blindside for us and he won't be because he's played and practiced all summer in a different position. At least when he was playing center for bath he was being taught blindside skills. I'm not sure what training he's done on that front at all since linking up with England.


Bergamasco was far more hilarious to watch at least Burgess was competent less so can be said about Bergamasco.
 
Any 6 would do ok at inside centre.

Burgess did ok. Nothing special and nothing too terrible (part form some of his positioning).

Haskell would have done a better job at 12 I think though.
 
Could see it being true to an extent.

But I'm not sure RFU would start ringing up coaches just yet.

It's difficult to see how it could be true 'to an extent'. You can't 'sort-of' or 'kinda halfways' call someone. Either he's telling the truth, in which case they called him, or he isn't.
 
It's difficult to see how it could be true 'to an extent'. You can't 'sort-of' or 'kinda halfways' call someone. Either he's telling the truth, in which case they called him, or he isn't.

Not really it might have been a email.

Might of been a taster call to see what England would have on the table.
 
To be honest Mallett seems like an Eddie O'Sullivan character - as soon as there's a job going he's right in the press about it, but probably isn't even in contention.
 
Wonder how true this is?If it's on another post, sorry...

http://www.sport24.co.za/Rugby/WorldCup/Mallett-says-no-thanks-after-England-call-20151009

About Nick Mallet saying no thanks after a call this week from England.....

The job of England coach has a lot less lustre than others due to the level of press pressure exerted on coaches. The English press are absolute vile scum and everyone in the world knows it. Thanks Ozzies for sending the lovely Rupert over here!
 
Well we don't know what the discussion was between RFU and Mallet, we don't know if it was Lancaster who called him in a personal capacity, or anyone else for that matter, AND we don't know if it was for a coaching/assistant coach/analyst job.

The article is a bit click-bait-ish to me...
 
The job of England coach has a lot less lustre than others due to the level of press pressure exerted on coaches. The English press are absolute vile scum and everyone in the world knows it. Thanks Ozzies for sending the lovely Rupert over here!

Vile scum is a bit harsh lol . Bell ends is a more fitting phrase if you ask me ? Haha
 
TheJonesBoy shut up seriously just shut it about Burgess at center he's not going to ever play at center again in his entire Rugby Union career. I know you like the player but he's a 6 shall always be a 6 and anybody and I mean anybody apart form Farrell & Lancaster who has seen him play there agrees. He's not the answer and never was ,he folly of him playing is partially how we screwed up.

No you little squawking child, you shut up.
Have a look at what Burgess achieved in league in his running game.
You really have no idea son.
He came into a back line set up that was already well wonky and looked great in the warm up games before the RWC, EVERYBODY agreed he was great in the warm up games. His defence is massive and he is a leader even though he's young.
This is where you Poms are losing it, you can't see talent where it exists so you take a rare thing like the raw material for a brilliant long term international centre and you decide it's too hard to make him that so lets chuck him in the forwards because we don't know how to bring the centre out of him.
Tana Umaga had a background in league and he went from wing to centre, one of the very best centres in the world.
Lancaster and Farrell have had no idea about what to do with their midfield. Thats a fact.
Give Burgess a chance, give him direction and the kid will deliver, he has all the abilities to make and break tackles, and to off-load in the tackle he just needs more time at the top level, not to be cast into the pack or sent back to purgatory in club rugby where he will rot until he's passed his used by date and then dredged up again.
The classic pommie strategy on how to treat talent.
Look at Cipriani out in the cold.
You poms have no idea how to shape players that why you come out with this nonsense talk that it's too hard to make him a centre so just throw him in the forwards and see how he goes.
The guy has plenty of pace to play in the midfield just give him a run and a set playing rotation.
It's not like you've got anyone better to put in there until Tuilagi behaves himself. If he ever does.
There's a reason you're out of the Cup.
Use your talent more wisely, don't burn it at the first sign of failure.
You need leaders and with 4 years to build towards it now is the time to start fashioning the man for his role in the squad.
Get yourselves a Kiwi coach and watch how much improvement there is overnight, and Burgess will be a key part of that English midfield in 6 months.
He and Joseph are the most exciting pairing you have had since Carling and Guscott.
 
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Okay find me one pundit/columnist only one who is not part of English set up who thinks Burgess' future in union is in the centers and not the back row.

- - - Updated - - -

And instead of calling me child maybe you should posting the same thing over and over again.
 
No you little squawking child, you shut up.
Have a look at what Burgess achieved in league in his running game.
You really have no idea son.
He came into a back line set up that was already well wonky and looked great in the warm up games before the RWC, EVERYBODY agreed he was great in the warm up games. His defence is massive and he is a leader even though he's young.
This is where you Poms are losing it, you can't see talent where it exists so you take a rare thing like the raw material for a brilliant long term international centre and you decide it's too hard to make him that so lets chuck him in the forwards because we don't know how to bring the centre out of him.
Tana Umaga had a background in league and he went from wing to centre, one of the very best centres in the world.
Lancaster and Farrell have had no idea about what to do with their midfield. Thats a fact.
Give Burgess a chance, give him direction and the kid will deliver, he has all the abilities to make and break tackles, and to off-load in the tackle he just needs more time at the top level, not to be cast into the pack or sent back to purgatory in club rugby where he will rot until he's passed his used by date and then dredged up again.
The classic pommie strategy on how to treat talent.
Look at Cipriani out in the cold.
You poms have no idea how to shape players that why you come out with this nonsense talk that it's too hard to make him a centre so just throw him in the forwards and see how he goes.
The guy has plenty of pace to play in the midfield just give him a run and a set playing rotation.
It's not like you've got anyone better to put in there until Tuilagi behaves himself. If he ever does.
There's a reason you're out of the Cup.
Use your talent more wisely, don't burn it at the first sign of failure.
You need leaders and with 4 years to build towards it now is the time to start fashioning the man for his role in the squad.
Get yourselves a Kiwi coach and watch how much improvement there is overnight, and Burgess will be a key part of that English midfield in 6 months.
He and Joseph are the most exciting pairing you have had since Carling and Guscott.
I've been watching Burgess videos trying to see what you see.

I see a hard-running ball carrier who takes contact, he has decent but not outstanding pace, a good but not spectacular step. High quality tackler. What I'm not really seeing is much passing ability, or offloading ability and obviously no kicking game.

If he stays 12 he looks like an old-school ball-carrying inside centre. I'm not being funny but Shontayne Hape appeared to have more creativity and deft skills than Burgess.
 
No you little squawking child, you shut up.
Have a look at what Burgess achieved in league in his running game.
You really have no idea son.
He came into a back line set up that was already well wonky and looked great in the warm up games before the RWC, EVERYBODY agreed he was great in the warm up games. His defence is massive and he is a leader even though he's young.
This is where you Poms are losing it, you can't see talent where it exists so you take a rare thing like the raw material for a brilliant long term international centre and you decide it's too hard to make him that so lets chuck him in the forwards because we don't know how to bring the centre out of him.
Tana Umaga had a background in league and he went from wing to centre, one of the very best centres in the world.
Lancaster and Farrell have had no idea about what to do with their midfield. Thats a fact.
Give Burgess a chance, give him direction and the kid will deliver, he has all the abilities to make and break tackles, and to off-load in the tackle he just needs more time at the top level, not to be cast into the pack or sent back to purgatory in club rugby where he will rot until he's passed his used by date and then dredged up again.
The classic pommie strategy on how to treat talent.
Look at Cipriani out in the cold.
You poms have no idea how to shape players that why you come out with this nonsense talk that it's too hard to make him a centre so just throw him in the forwards and see how he goes.
The guy has plenty of pace to play in the midfield just give him a run and a set playing rotation.
It's not like you've got anyone better to put in there until Tuilagi behaves himself. If he ever does.
There's a reason you're out of the Cup.
Use your talent more wisely, don't burn it at the first sign of failure.
You need leaders and with 4 years to build towards it now is the time to start fashioning the man for his role in the squad.
Get yourselves a Kiwi coach and watch how much improvement there is overnight, and Burgess will be a key part of that English midfield in 6 months.
He and Joseph are the most exciting pairing you have had since Carling and Guscott.

I understand what you are saying about Burgess in the centres, And also believe that maybe he could go on to be a big thing at 12. But I believe it more about Burgess at 6. I don't think it is a case of of just give up and shunt him into the forwards. There is probably more work and development required to get him great at 6 with focus on the breakdown and set pieces.

I also don't think his league and individual talent will be lost playing at 6. There is no reason that set plays and match tactics can be used to involve him exactly for those strengths, much like other teams do with their back rows too.

Overall, I am saying you can have the best of both worlds. I would rather have Burgess making a great impact from 6 and able to join in all aspects of game plans, and have a 12 that is more of play maker/second distributor role. I suppose it is personal preferences for game styles
 

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