Yeah, I saw a lot of that. People were calling for him to be replaced. In truth, Gatball doesn't really suit the romantic Welsh ideal of running rugby. However, it has made them a solid and successful test side, albeit one which still struggles against the Tri Nations (6pt home win over SA notwithstanding).
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The Autopsy thread: Which England team members are for the chopping block?
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TW27BA
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Going back to thread ***le, I'd suggest Joe Marler is kept away from England until he learns to scrummage correctly. Mako is better in the loose anyway.
Tom Youngs was better with his throwing against Australia and put in some huge hits. Keep him, and forget Hartley. Jamie George needs some game time. Dan Cole looks like he needs a rest. Whatever happened to David Wilson, an England regular not so long ago. Now he can't make the bench?
Geoff Parling, still a great lineout man but time for younger blood. Courtney and Launch I'd be happy with along with Kruis and Attwood to keep them on their toes.
Our back row is a mess and almost to a man I'm sure most England supporters would agree. Lots of names put forward, and time for Robshaw to hand over both captaincy and the 7 shirt. Morgan and Billy are still the best options at 8 but there's a vacancy at 6. Haskell needs a P45 too.
Wigglesworth does nothing for me, Care appears out of form or favour so someone should be putting up their hand to challenge Ben Youngs.
At 10 Ford must be first choice for the future. Farrell kicks superbly defends well but again is not an attacking 10. Will anyone give Danny Cipriani another shot at 10? I'd hope so.
Barritt has hopefully played his last game. An honest hard defender but offers nothing in attack. JJ, Tuilagi, Slade,maybe even Eastmond but not Barritt please.
Happy with both wings + Nowell and Brown for now, but if Brown is injured, we need another good alternative. Watson?
That's my quick take on the state of play.
Tom Youngs was better with his throwing against Australia and put in some huge hits. Keep him, and forget Hartley. Jamie George needs some game time. Dan Cole looks like he needs a rest. Whatever happened to David Wilson, an England regular not so long ago. Now he can't make the bench?
Geoff Parling, still a great lineout man but time for younger blood. Courtney and Launch I'd be happy with along with Kruis and Attwood to keep them on their toes.
Our back row is a mess and almost to a man I'm sure most England supporters would agree. Lots of names put forward, and time for Robshaw to hand over both captaincy and the 7 shirt. Morgan and Billy are still the best options at 8 but there's a vacancy at 6. Haskell needs a P45 too.
Wigglesworth does nothing for me, Care appears out of form or favour so someone should be putting up their hand to challenge Ben Youngs.
At 10 Ford must be first choice for the future. Farrell kicks superbly defends well but again is not an attacking 10. Will anyone give Danny Cipriani another shot at 10? I'd hope so.
Barritt has hopefully played his last game. An honest hard defender but offers nothing in attack. JJ, Tuilagi, Slade,maybe even Eastmond but not Barritt please.
Happy with both wings + Nowell and Brown for now, but if Brown is injured, we need another good alternative. Watson?
That's my quick take on the state of play.
I read it everywhere. Other nations despise him, I see it with a lot of English supporters too. The RFU don't like him, it doesn't seem like there are many who do.
Henry ruled the job out 4 years ago, he said he wants to live in New Zealand.
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Thing about Woodward is, he wasn't really a pure coach when he was in the top job, he hired a bunch of other coaches after he messed up the World Cup in 1999. I'd say he could probably do that again, but I think he should be even higher up, overseeing Elite rugby as a whole.
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I think it would be interesting to see how many of the players from 2003 would back SCW to take over again... my gut tells me very few of them would.
Maverick1987
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Barnes: Management to blame
http://www.skysports.com/share/10017438
Really interesting from Barnes and not too far wrong either ! (Can't believe I agreed with Barnes)
http://www.skysports.com/share/10017438
Really interesting from Barnes and not too far wrong either ! (Can't believe I agreed with Barnes)
The heart of the blame lies with the RFU.
Since 2003 England have won one solitary 6N when everyone played **** and we limped over the line. No Grand Slam in 12 years and almost nothing to shout about in that time. Over the same period both Wales and France have won four 6N (Wales 3 Grand Slams and France 2), Ireland have won three 6N and one Grand Slam. Realistically I think England's current pool of players is as good as any of those nations, perhaps weaker in some areas and stronger in others. The players are there, look at the JWC successes. We produce many, many fine players. I'm sure some will disagree but I think that is not the issue.
So what's the common thread? Poor coaching. All the England coaches since the 2003 WC have been, frankly, ****. Nothing against any of them personally, all are decent, honest, hard-working men with England's best interests at heart. Tellingly none of Robinson, Ashton or MJ have gone on to prove anyone wrong with amazing success elsewhere. SL is probably the best of the bunch. I know he is highly regarded as a coach and I believe that in the right circumstances he would be a great coach at international level. However, he came in having won nothing of consequence but having impressed with how he talks and writes about the game. He has been crippled with indecision over his best selection, clearly scared to lose and only picks exciting attacking players when forced by injury, his backroom team has been utterly shown up. The issues have built up and up. I was absolutely mortified when the lessons of 2011 were not learned. The RFU had built up to that debacle with bad decision after bad decision. Picking MJ was the nadir, his regime was a shambles: dire play and awful in every way. Yet they went and did the same stupid thing again, picking an RFU inside man. It didn't work before and it didn't work this time.
Anyone defending Lancaster, and I know there are many, should consider the impact that a quality, experienced coach and back-ups can make. Take the Irish. Widely believed to be drifting under Kidney, brought in Joe Schmidt - two 6N in two seasons. Australia were in freefall a year ago, McKenzie resigned, 7 losses in 7 games. Everyone thought they were certs to go out in this pool of the WC. Chieka comes in and brings in Ledesma and bingo, wins the RC and is looking pretty good in the WC. Neither man has miraculously inherited some undiscovered new players. Both had the same pool as their predecessors and both turned things around.
If NZ had only won the RC once in 12 years and watched their bitter rivals win it over and over would they continue to select identikit coaches. A wise man once said "the definition of madness is trying the same thing again and expecting different results". The RFU are entirely at fault. Their frankly stupid method of choosing coaches is amateurish and has inflicted huge damage. It has also seen England fans endure over a decade of substandard coaching, tactics, selections and performance. They have huge financial resources and England must be a tempting job. Imagine now, any improvement would be greeted with rapture in English supporting circles. A coach who could deliver a Grand Slam would be chaired through the streets. The players are there, the resources are there, the support is there, it just needs a coach who can make it happen. Lancaster has to go, he was given a remit to prepare for the WC. You could try to argue away the butchered 6N he has presided over ("it's too soon for them", "they will learn", etc) but his task was to prepare a squad that could go deep into the WC. He has been entirely unable to deliver anything close. Nothing can excuse this shambles. I know it was the "group of death" but a man who is still unsure of his centre pairing after three years and brings in, effectively, two uncapped players at the last moment, still using the pre WC warm up games to pick his squad? That was a man who was never in control, who never had a genuine plan or process. The outcome was sadly predictable. The RFU need to take a bit of time, pay Lancaster off and this time, this time actually get it right. Identify the best available coach with genuine experience of top level rugby, at least Guinness PL and preferably across more than one country. Foreign if necessary, and it almost certainly will be. Offer him a great deal (and they can outpay any other union). Get him the best coaches, don't hobble him with inside men. I don't know who that man is but someone of the calibre and pedigree of a Gatland, even Chieka who had coached all over the world and won things everywhere. They should hire recruitment consultants or some sort of expert panel as their own processes are so flawed they cannot begin to deliver results. Lancaster cannot be continued with but if he is for some unfathomable reason then at least get shot of Farrell and Rowntree who have both also failed dismally. I don't hold out much hope, indeed the pessimist in me fears the job being given to Farrell, I genuinely wouldn't put it past them.
Since 2003 England have won one solitary 6N when everyone played **** and we limped over the line. No Grand Slam in 12 years and almost nothing to shout about in that time. Over the same period both Wales and France have won four 6N (Wales 3 Grand Slams and France 2), Ireland have won three 6N and one Grand Slam. Realistically I think England's current pool of players is as good as any of those nations, perhaps weaker in some areas and stronger in others. The players are there, look at the JWC successes. We produce many, many fine players. I'm sure some will disagree but I think that is not the issue.
So what's the common thread? Poor coaching. All the England coaches since the 2003 WC have been, frankly, ****. Nothing against any of them personally, all are decent, honest, hard-working men with England's best interests at heart. Tellingly none of Robinson, Ashton or MJ have gone on to prove anyone wrong with amazing success elsewhere. SL is probably the best of the bunch. I know he is highly regarded as a coach and I believe that in the right circumstances he would be a great coach at international level. However, he came in having won nothing of consequence but having impressed with how he talks and writes about the game. He has been crippled with indecision over his best selection, clearly scared to lose and only picks exciting attacking players when forced by injury, his backroom team has been utterly shown up. The issues have built up and up. I was absolutely mortified when the lessons of 2011 were not learned. The RFU had built up to that debacle with bad decision after bad decision. Picking MJ was the nadir, his regime was a shambles: dire play and awful in every way. Yet they went and did the same stupid thing again, picking an RFU inside man. It didn't work before and it didn't work this time.
Anyone defending Lancaster, and I know there are many, should consider the impact that a quality, experienced coach and back-ups can make. Take the Irish. Widely believed to be drifting under Kidney, brought in Joe Schmidt - two 6N in two seasons. Australia were in freefall a year ago, McKenzie resigned, 7 losses in 7 games. Everyone thought they were certs to go out in this pool of the WC. Chieka comes in and brings in Ledesma and bingo, wins the RC and is looking pretty good in the WC. Neither man has miraculously inherited some undiscovered new players. Both had the same pool as their predecessors and both turned things around.
If NZ had only won the RC once in 12 years and watched their bitter rivals win it over and over would they continue to select identikit coaches. A wise man once said "the definition of madness is trying the same thing again and expecting different results". The RFU are entirely at fault. Their frankly stupid method of choosing coaches is amateurish and has inflicted huge damage. It has also seen England fans endure over a decade of substandard coaching, tactics, selections and performance. They have huge financial resources and England must be a tempting job. Imagine now, any improvement would be greeted with rapture in English supporting circles. A coach who could deliver a Grand Slam would be chaired through the streets. The players are there, the resources are there, the support is there, it just needs a coach who can make it happen. Lancaster has to go, he was given a remit to prepare for the WC. You could try to argue away the butchered 6N he has presided over ("it's too soon for them", "they will learn", etc) but his task was to prepare a squad that could go deep into the WC. He has been entirely unable to deliver anything close. Nothing can excuse this shambles. I know it was the "group of death" but a man who is still unsure of his centre pairing after three years and brings in, effectively, two uncapped players at the last moment, still using the pre WC warm up games to pick his squad? That was a man who was never in control, who never had a genuine plan or process. The outcome was sadly predictable. The RFU need to take a bit of time, pay Lancaster off and this time, this time actually get it right. Identify the best available coach with genuine experience of top level rugby, at least Guinness PL and preferably across more than one country. Foreign if necessary, and it almost certainly will be. Offer him a great deal (and they can outpay any other union). Get him the best coaches, don't hobble him with inside men. I don't know who that man is but someone of the calibre and pedigree of a Gatland, even Chieka who had coached all over the world and won things everywhere. They should hire recruitment consultants or some sort of expert panel as their own processes are so flawed they cannot begin to deliver results. Lancaster cannot be continued with but if he is for some unfathomable reason then at least get shot of Farrell and Rowntree who have both also failed dismally. I don't hold out much hope, indeed the pessimist in me fears the job being given to Farrell, I genuinely wouldn't put it past them.
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Did Olyy say that Tigers ruined Gibson?!?!
We made Gibson.
We made everyone.
Also your precious Braid, Lund and Seymour got manhandled by our academy pack (and Cole) last year.
We made Gibson.
We made everyone.
Also your precious Braid, Lund and Seymour got manhandled by our academy pack (and Cole) last year.
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Was thinking that could change this cup if a couple more players had stayed fit.
Totally agree on all of your points. Slade is a classy guy. Would have added something else to the team.
whatithinksite.wordpress.com/thats-all-folks
Tim Owen
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Cole and Marler both out, they seem to have forgotten how to scrummage.
I like Youngs in the loose but his line out throwing isn't good enough currently.
Wood and Robshaw are basically the same player so one needs to go.
Wigglesworth has a two speed gear box, slow and very slow.
Barritt. The selection which has undermined the management team for the last 2 years.
So the current squad is ok it just needs to be moved forward by a new coaching team.
On that topic I wouldn't be against a Woodward return as the head honcho with new 3 new coaches.
A person to look at for one of those roles might be Gregor Townsend.
Glasgow have been playing great rugby for a while now and for the last 2 seasons have been winning a lot of matches.
I like Youngs in the loose but his line out throwing isn't good enough currently.
Wood and Robshaw are basically the same player so one needs to go.
Wigglesworth has a two speed gear box, slow and very slow.
Barritt. The selection which has undermined the management team for the last 2 years.
So the current squad is ok it just needs to be moved forward by a new coaching team.
On that topic I wouldn't be against a Woodward return as the head honcho with new 3 new coaches.
A person to look at for one of those roles might be Gregor Townsend.
Glasgow have been playing great rugby for a while now and for the last 2 seasons have been winning a lot of matches.
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Honestly he needs to play everyone who hasn't yet played:
1) Vunipola, 2) George, 3) Brookes
4) Kruis, 5) Launchbury
6) Haskell, 7) Robshaw, 8) Waster
9) Wigglesworth 10) Ford
12) Slade (Why the hell not), 13) Joseph
11) Nowell, 14) May, 15) Watson (will be Goode)
16) Webber, 17) Marler, 18) Wilson
19) Parling, 20) Morgan
21) Care, 22) Farrell, 23) Goode/Watson.
1) Vunipola, 2) George, 3) Brookes
4) Kruis, 5) Launchbury
6) Haskell, 7) Robshaw, 8) Waster
9) Wigglesworth 10) Ford
12) Slade (Why the hell not), 13) Joseph
11) Nowell, 14) May, 15) Watson (will be Goode)
16) Webber, 17) Marler, 18) Wilson
19) Parling, 20) Morgan
21) Care, 22) Farrell, 23) Goode/Watson.
PacDuran
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tb;dr (too barnesy; didn't read)
Lancaster is the nadir, no trophies and humilated out at the pool stages of a home World Cup, it simply doesn't come any worse. MJ was the wrong choice too but he at least won the Six Nations, and the team made it to the QF of the World Cup. The RFU is so incompetent they managed to select someone who did worse than a complete novice.
Needs to be higher than that level. Preferably a proven test coach.
Farrell has been slaughtered in the media so I doubt he stays but they all must go, all of them.
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We are going to play a waster at 8? I'm all for us moving away from what we did last game but that may be a tad too far. Also Robshaw to 6 and Cole at 7, he seems to think that is how it works anyway...
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Who else is there that hasn't really played this WC?
Is anyone at all prepared to defend the inclusion of Brad Barrit in the England team? Just wondered. He is a trier and gives his all but an international standard player? I know the other centres have not always performed but is Barrit actually better than any other currently available England 12? I cannot fathom his inclusion, except that SL is a coach who is suffocatingly defensive and values tackling power and solidity above every other skillset. I mean what is the point of having two decent wingers and a strong 13 in Joseph if the ball gets as far as 12 and gets carried, head down into contact about 50cm upfield and probably not over the gain line??
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Are there any other teams that have 5 players that haven't even made the bench yet?
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