The Autopsy thread: Which England team members are for the chopping block?

[TobesHodges]

TBH I don't think anyone should be given Burgess any grief, he did as best he could in a position that he doesn't play.. And actually except for the wrong positioning against Wales that let Williams through, he didn't do much wrong.
Tbh Our 6's this tournament have been non existent, he probably would have been far more useful there..

 

[valley commando]

RedruthRFC I wouldn't bother we are just witnessing someone who doesn't understand a broken watch is right twice a day. Even if they were right (I've seen plenty of other pundits/journo's disagree with that assessment).

Not you again, you have a habit of slinging insults around in the hope someone will take the rise, sorry matey not this time.
Name those pundits who have said the addition of Armitage would not enhance the England side because I've looked and can find no pundits with this view.

 

[Isengard]

Blame being aimed at Farrell?

In the last couple of days a host of negative stories have emerged about Farrell. If true he has to go.

However, a more sinister interpretation might be that the RFU have decided to use him as the fallguy so they can absolve Lancaster. We've had Farrell forcing Lancaster to select his son, Farrell convincing him to omit Burrell and replace him with Burgess, Farrell telling Lancaster the tactics, etc, etc. This is coming from 'sources' anonymously onto the net and into the papers, ex-players who might well be getting it from the RFU. It looks to me worryingly like a blame shifting exercise to make Farrell the big baddie and Lancaster a man who was led astray and influenced by the wrong people. It might explain Farrell's comment in the that press conference where he said something like "it was a pleasure to work with Stuart". Cynical and jaded I know but with the RFU you never know. Are they going to blame and sack Farrell and keep Lancaster on. "Lessons will be learned", "it's a process not a straight line" all the rest of the BS that is spouted.

For once, and probably the only time ever I found myself agreeing with Stephen Jones about the failure of Lancaster.

RFU this is a one off opportunity to clear the decks and put right the mistakes of the last 12 years. If you let this slip and keep on any of the current team then I utterly despair for the future of English rugby, more years of crushing mediocrity with a "developing" team and players "learning" with inconsistent decisions and a lack of confidence throughout await and it will be squarely your fault.

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TBH I don't think anyone should be given Burgess any grief, he did as best he could in a position that he doesn't play.. And actually except for the wrong positioning against Wales that let Williams through, he didn't do much wrong.
Tbh Our 6's this tournament have been non existent, he probably would have been far more useful there..

I agree. It's not his fault he was picked. The fault lies with the coaches who picked the squad. He did his best. He also seems to be getting the blame now, what with Vunipola's non comments and chuntering in the press about Farrell enforcing his inclusions in the squad and team I wonder if he is going to be footing the blame along with Farrell. I think he has enormous potential, he is powerful, strong and skilful but he needs to learn how to play the game and find a suitable position. 6 looks good for him, he is quick and physical and would be able to range around a bit more freely assuming the scrum gets sorted.

 

[PacDuran]

TBH I don't think anyone should be given Burgess any grief, he did as best he could in a position that he doesn't play.. And actually except for the wrong positioning against Wales that let Williams through, he didn't do much wrong.
Tbh Our 6's this tournament have been non existent, he probably would have been far more useful there..

High tackle on Hooper too bud. He just was never going to do well, I accept that it was a managerial problem rather than his own. Some people were acting like he could come on and save England, just laughable now. I don't think he ever scored a try for England. It will be nothing short of a disgrace if a couple of figures are used as scape goats as there should be root and branch reform in the RFU.

 

[ncurd]

Not you again, you have a habit of slinging insults around in the hope someone will take the rise, sorry matey not this time.
Name those pundits who have said the addition of Armitage would not enhance the England side because I've looked and can find no pundits with this view.

If you read most talk is generally about the lack of a genuine open side rather than singalling out Arimtage himself, Kvesic is an option that was never looked at. Included in my assessment is every pundit who says the problem lie elsewhere and it's a multitude of thing.

http://www.skysports.com/rugby-unio...would-steffon-armitage-have-made-a-difference

I suggest you read @TRF_Peat blog as well on this very subject and you'll find it's alot more nuanced than "I got 1 one my 99 predictions before the tournament right". Anyone with half a brain would say Armitage would not of made a difference. And attribute this situation to a multitude of areas and reasons that can't be solely down to one mistake. I was cataloguing mistakes made since the 6 nations in my head earlier when it comes to selection and there are several points where failures happened where a clutch of players were discraded that could of made some kind of difference. Armitage isn't some rugby god called upon Earth to stop us mere mortals, he's not a Pocock or McCaw, he's just one player out of 15 on the pitch where quite a few let us down.

You say you took abuse over Cips yet I'm struggling to think of how many people disagreed with you over that as it was generally considered a decision that could of been made (quite a few other than yourself calling for it Olyy hasn't shut up about it) but wasn't for a few reasons.

You've spoken a lot of nonsense and have been rubbing salt in English wounds for nearly 3 days now while trying to play the hapless victim card which nobody is buying trying to get a rise out anyone who will bite (the very definition of a troll, yes you are one deal with it).

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Pretty sure the majority was pro Cips.

Lund ------> S.Armitage.
(Did I do good Olyy)

 

[Perthshire]

I Honestly think that the entire Squad should be looked at after this dismal RWC

 

[ncurd]

Pretty sure the majority was pro Cips.

Lund ------> S.Armitage.
(Did I do good Olyy)

I think most people wanted Cips it was just finding room for the guy we had three fly-halfs in Ford, Farrell & Slade. Cips was unlikely to be considered before Ford or Farrell (although some wanted him to be) at full-back we had Brown & Watson. I think everyone would of booted Goode out for him though. Frankly though after his treatment in the 6 nations we all knew he wouldn't get any game time if he did tag along.

But yeah I don't think anyone was saying or giving abuse for the idea he should be included.

 

[PacDuran]

I Honestly think that the entire Squad should be looked at after this dismal RWC

George Forde, Joe Launchbury, and Anthony Watson are the guys I would build a team around. Johnny May and Ben Morgan would be in there too once fit again. Vunipola brothers too once they both shed 1.5 stone each also.

Apart from that.... slash and burn! Everyone must go back and prove themselves. But I would be bringing in a HELL of a lot of youngsters to see how they did, and I would be giving them multiple chances to click too. I would write off the up coming 6 nations as an experiment as well.

 

[Perthshire]

George Forde, Joe Launchbury, and Anthony Watson are the guys I would build a team around. Johnny May and Ben Morgan would be in there too once fit again. Vunipola brothers too once they both shed 1.5 stone each also.

As Maybe. The entire squad have failed in my opinion so the coaching staff need to look at whats available for the 6 Nations and beyond

 

[ncurd]

I wouldn't like to see colassal cull like last time because

a) I think we have some core players which a good team can be build from.

b) Lancaster got rid of everyone without any level of understudying in role and pinned his hopes on a lot of players 4 years back. To some degree that's admirable but I prefer players cycling in then out. For example it's very unlikely Brown will make it to the next RWC lets decide who his likely replacement will be, get them training together and slowly rotate Brown out, bench, then dropped, then slowly bring in the next guy. Rather than thrust people in as starters having never played international rugby befpore and hope it sticks.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Have to say, that even after doing a massive blog post on the subject of overseas players (SUBTLE PLUG), I'm still not utterly sure what I think of the Armitage/France thing, but there's two things I'd say...

1) Rule's not getting changed.
2) Players go to France because they're getting picked and there's only a problem if the coach is a fool and lets the wrong players go, or changes his mind once they're there

Seriously though, every country is doing protectionism, rail at the whole world for doing it and not just England.

Also, Hulkster is right, it's time to win some shizzle and let the squad develop from that rather than getting fixated on the next disaster.

I think the rule makes sense. And FWIW I think the Aussies have it spot on with the 60 cap limit. Keeps the best players at home during their peak years, but allows them to top up their pensions while not losing vital experience to the national team. As ever, they're a step ahead.

As for Armitage, he could easily have made himself available. HE chose not to. England didn't matter to him, so he doesn't matter to me.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Some excellent stats on the minutes players have played under Lancaster

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ru...nd-head-coach-has-used-during-his-tenure.html

Robshaw 3280
Kvesic 160 (2 80 games v Argentina during lions)

Barritt 1766

 

[j'nuh]

Pennell 1

lol, must have been an absolutely atrocious minute of rugby by Pennell to have not gotten another chance after that.

 

[ncurd]

Some excellent stats on the minutes players have played under Lancaster

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ru...nd-head-coach-has-used-during-his-tenure.html

Robshaw 3280
Kvesic 160 (2 80 games v Argentina during lions)

Barritt 1766

Slade has what one cap and half the time of Cipriani?

Interesting reading though some of those caps I barely remember the players.

 

[Lé Ddanno]

I wouldn't like to see colassal cull like last time because

a) I think we have some core players which a good team can be build from.

b) Lancaster got rid of everyone without any level of understudying in role and pinned his hopes on a lot of players 4 years back. To some degree that's admirable but I prefer players cycling in then out. For example it's very unlikely Brown will make it to the next RWC lets decide who his likely replacement will be, get them training together and slowly rotate Brown out, bench, then dropped, then slowly bring in the next guy. Rather than thrust people in as starters having never played international rugby befpore and hope it sticks.

This. The team was ripped apart four years ago already. We have players that can and should stay on, even if only to get Ewers, Roko, Kvesic, Itoje, etc etc up to speed with the squad as a whole. Robshaw, Brown, Wilson, Haskell are the names that immediately spring to mind for that role. Perhaps even Cole if he can't find his form again (and stop those silly penalties).

If you want to be wildly* optimistic then the only thing we were really lacking was a coaching team with a gameplan to pick players for. Were that the case then a few more players might have been blooded in 2014 to open the cover options for said plan instead of the hodgepodge of game styles, carousel of players and panicked tactical or selection changes when the slightest thing gets thrown out.

Fairly sure I had a bigger point to make but I lost it. MTV generation or something.

*key word that. I realise I am totally ignoring the continual erosion of the scrum/lineout/any of our traditional strengths you care to mention, as well as the failure to address ongoing failures at the breakdown and the ability to start games strongly/close big games out (depending on the end of Lancaster's reign). Feel free to bring it up anyway. 'Tis a forum after all.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Some excellent stats on the minutes players have played under Lancaster

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ru...nd-head-coach-has-used-during-his-tenure.html

Robshaw 3280
Kvesic 160 (2 80 games v Argentina during lions)

Barritt 1766

Some of those are astonishing...

Ashton 1609
Roko 61
Wade 80

 

[Maverick1987]

Not you again, you have a habit of slinging insults around in the hope someone will take the rise, sorry matey not this time.
Name those pundits who have said the addition of Armitage would not enhance the England side because I've looked and can find no pundits with this view.

I think the trouble is England need to stay shoulder to shoulder with the premiership clubs which imo is very important . They are in charge of bringing all the talent through ..

The fallout between the WRU and the clubs should remind you that a battle between club and country doesn't benefit anyone

I don't disagree with you that the guys playing over in France are great players but Toulon are better than any international team bar NZ . Do you not think its a huge coincidence that Abendanon has played for bath for 10 years and been viewed by everyone as a really good club player then goes to France and within weeks becomes a world beater ? Playing in France suits some players and not others .

I don't think we should change a whole system for a couple of players I do however feel we should for the first time in a decade hire a coaching team with real pedigree and see if that works (which I'm sure it will) we have the players already we just need a coach to make it click

 

[TobesHodges]

If strettle was available would you have used him? Probably the best English winger under the high ball and is by far the best English box kick chaser.
And of course is tearing it up in Clermont colours, seems to have a bit more muscle and a bit more pace.

Does any else think Strettle would have been a better option than Watson or May? As an al round player I feel he's better than both..

 

[Maverick1987]

As Maybe. The entire squad have failed in my opinion so the coaching staff need to look at whats available for the 6 Nations and beyond

Don't be so daft ! The bloody coaching staff would be the first ones to pack their bags if you ask me !

The only thing our current coaching staff need to be looking at is what stuff they need to pack up from their desks