The Leinster thread

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

Squad will be seriously tested away to Glasgow next weekend. Leo Cullen has intimated that all Ireland players will be in camp and unavailable. Stalwarts for these type of games Isa Nacewa, Barry Daly and Noel Reid amongst appear to be out. Could see a very inexperienced squad something like this for the 2nd trip to Glasgow in 2 weeks.

Jordan Larmour, Fergus McFadden, Rory O'Loughlin, Ciarán Frawley, Tommy O'Brien, Ross Byrne, Jamison Gibson Park; Edward Byrne, Sean Cronin, Michael Bent, Mick Kearney, Ross Molony, Scott Fardy, Jordi Murphy, Max Deegan. Subs: Richardt Strauss, Peter Dooley, Vakh Adbaladze, Josh Murphy, Peadar Timmins, Nick McCarthy, Cathal Marsh, Hugh O'Sullivan

 

[munstermuffin]

Could see few internationals released back. For example Rob Kearney. Regardless of my opinion, if he is involved he needs game time. Ditto for maybe 1 or 2 others.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

Probably best to reply here rather than derail the Pro14 thread.

No he's not seen as 15, he's used there when needed and Cullen said as much... He debuted at 10 and has only played 15 when Kearney has been unavailable. He'll slot back as second choice 10 now with Lowe, Kearney and Larmour options at 15. Leinster's back three have been ravaged by injury and unavailability this season and EO'S hasn't really got a clue, joining any other province would just expose him to worse rugby and he's clearly honing his game fantastically well.

As players are coming back to full fitness and end their commitments in New Zealand, we'll begin to see a truer picture of the positions players are viewed in long term. I'd say the backline depth chart is something like this:

Full back: R Kearney, Carbery, Nacewa, Larmour, Henshaw
Wing: Lowe, Byrne, D Kearney, B Daly, Nacewa, McFadden, O'Loughlin, Larmour
Centre: Ringrose, Henshaw, Reid, O'Loughlin, Nacewa, C O'Brien, T Daly,
Flyhalf: Sexton, Carbery, Byrne, Marsh
Scrumhalf: McGrath, Gibson Park, McCarthy, Rock

I can't see how people would claim there's pressure by the IRFU to move Jordan Larmour elsewhere when at just 20 years old he has 7 appearances and 3 tries. Likewise at 22 Joey Carbery has far more experience than Johnny Sexton did at the same age. Leinster under Leo Cullen have demonstrated a willingness to give youth a chance in stark contract to his predecessor Matt O'Connor. Why should they be punished for developing talent?

I'd say there's a layer of talent at Leinster beyond the frontliners and promising youngsters who are far more more likely to move on. I'm not criticizing these players but it's hard to see how, for example, Tom Daly, Mick Kearney, Ian Nagle, Peadar Timmins, Ian Fitzpatrick, Oisin Heffernan, Hugo Keenan or Sean McNulty will ever force their way into becoming key squad members.

 

[munstermuffin]

My point was more on Carbery. And as I said the pressure is more from Irelands needs as opposed to Leinster. They need Joey playing as a 10 but most of games Jonny away Joey will be too.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

It's better for JC to be playing 15 than sitting on a bench, he's still a playmaker there and kicks plenty, different application of the same skills is all. It's not as if he has to start every game either, Sexton was only first choice for two months prior to his Ireland debut after Felipe left and had far less minutes at 10 than Carbery, or Byrne, at the same age. Leinster already developed Carbery into a 10 who can play international rugby and are doing the same with Byrne, both will continue to improve and benefit more for playing in a winning environment than joining the horror show up north regardless of minutes.

 

[munstermuffin]

It's better for JC to be playing 15 than sitting on a bench, he's still a playmaker there and kicks plenty, different application of the same skills is all. It's not as if he has to start every game either, Sexton was only first choice for two months prior to his Ireland debut after Felipe left and had far less minutes at 10 than Carbery, or Byrne, at the same age. Leinster already developed Carbery into a 10 who can play international rugby and are doing the same with Byrne, both will continue to improve and benefit more for playing in a winning environment than joining the horror show up north regardless of minutes.

I don't disagree with Joey better playing 15 than bench. The issue is more Joey hasn't got good tactical mentality at 10. Simply due to not being used to position there recently. The point is more for Ireland a number 2 lacking time at 10. I'm not saying he should go North or that I have the answer just that the argument. Madigan is the basis. In last RWC he survived against France but blew up against Arg and it showed he hadn't the game for international 10. Now Carbery is a 10. Just he needs the time there too for mental side of game

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I don't disagree with Joey better playing 15 than bench. The issue is more Joey hasn't got good tactical mentality at 10. Simply due to not being used to position there recently. The point is more for Ireland a number 2 lacking time at 10. I'm not saying he should go North or that I have the answer just that the argument. Madigan is the basis. In last RWC he survived against France but blew up against Arg and it showed he hadn't the game for international 10. Now Carbery is a 10. Just he needs the time there too for mental side of game

To be honest I disagree on all the points here. Carbery needs to hone his game management sure but he's a good tactical player who can be prone to getting a bit blinkered, he's still going to learn more from working with Sexton and picking up minutes at 10 with more back three options now than he would trying to force things with a beaten pack up north. I honestly don't see any conundrum other than a fabricated idea that you have to play 10 consistently to be a good one, Barrett and JM Hernandez would definitely disagree.

 

[munstermuffin]

To be honest I disagree on all the points here. Carbery needs to hone his game management sure but he's a good tactical player who can be prone to getting a bit blinkered, he's still going to learn more from working with Sexton and picking up minutes at 10 with more back three options now than he would trying to force things with a beaten pack up north. I honestly don't see any conundrum other than a fabricated idea that you have to play 10 consistently to be a good one, Barrett and JM Hernandez would definitely disagree.

But every time Joey has played 10 for Ireland it has been noted about his tactical and positional game. As I said don't want a repeat of Madigan. It was being said he isn't a 10 and it was too late before that was realised. Don't want Carbery lost along same route

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

Don't want to derail the Transfer Rumours thread so bringing this here.

But as report said Ulster were only fully alerted once he was told He wasn't being kept on. He had no chance of a Central deal and knew that if giys in front of him are struggling to get one. As I said just of you rated a guy and he probably wanted to stay why not even chat it through with him but instead turf him to a rival. Yes it will suit Ireland but I wonder more too is it now all the lobbying by 3 other provinces regards wages and budgets that Leinster are being tightened slightly. And that' not a provincial dig just more I wonder is that a link to possible reform on CC deals

Perfectly reasonable point. My take on it, assuming Leinster didn't offer him a new deal, is that Leinster may have done him a favour.

If there are budgetary restraints, Leinster have to weigh up where their needs are most pressing. As Leinster don't announce contract lengths, it's tough to gauge who is or isn't out of contract. It appears that Rob Kearney, Dave Kearney, Fergus McFadden, Sean Cronin, James Tracy, Ross Molony, Rhys Ruddock, Josh van der Flier, Tadhg Furlong, Michael Bent and Garry Ringrose may need new deals. It's very unlikely that Leinster could afford all of those players to remain so they need to prioritize who they sign. Murphy would be behind Ruddock and van der Flier in the backrow in that regard and could be jettisoned given the talent ahead of him and academy prospects coming up behind him.

Jordi Murphy has ambitions to make the Irish World Cup squad in 2019. If Leinster didn't think they could afford to keep him, they could have lowballed him with an offer. In such an instance, the other Irish provinces are prohibited from offering players a bigger contract so Murphy's only option of getting fair market value for his services would be to leave Ireland and abandon hope of a place in Japan in 2019. If it's the case that Leinster didn't offer him a new deal, perhaps this was their thinking.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

Around 2012, if asked to name what the Leinster team would look like today, you could have ended up with something like this:

Rob Kearney, Andrew Conway, Brendan Macken, Eoin O'Malley, Luke Fitzgerald, Ian McKinley, John Cooney; Cian Healy, David Doyle, Jamie Hagan, Devin Toner, Mark Flanagan, Rhys Ruddock, Dominic Ryan, Sean O'Brien.

That's leaving out players like Ian Madigan, Niall Morris, Paul Ryan, Kevin McLaughlin, Marty Moore and Jordi Murphy. Kind of makes you realize the folly of planning too much for the future and instead putting your best foot forward immediately.

 

[munstermuffin]

Don't want to derail the Transfer Rumours thread so bringing this here.


Perfectly reasonable point. My take on it, assuming Leinster didn't offer him a new deal, is that Leinster may have done him a favour.

If there are budgetary restraints, Leinster have to weigh up where their needs are most pressing. As Leinster don't announce contract lengths, it's tough to gauge who is or isn't out of contract. It appears that Rob Kearney, Dave Kearney, Fergus McFadden, Sean Cronin, James Tracy, Ross Molony, Rhys Ruddock, Josh van der Flier, Tadhg Furlong, Michael Bent and Garry Ringrose may need new deals. It's very unlikely that Leinster could afford all of those players to remain so they need to prioritize who they sign. Murphy would be behind Ruddock and van der Flier in the backrow in that regard and could be jettisoned given the talent ahead of him and academy prospects coming up behind him.

Jordi Murphy has ambitions to make the Irish World Cup squad in 2019. If Leinster didn't think they could afford to keep him, they could have lowballed him with an offer. In such an instance, the other Irish provinces are prohibited from offering players a bigger contract so Murphy's only option of getting fair market value for his services would be to leave Ireland and abandon hope of a place in Japan in 2019. If it's the case that Leinster didn't offer him a new deal, perhaps this was their thinking.

Rumours Sean Cronin already told he's been released and he is now weighing up France. Of your list issues will be:
Rob Kearney: Will he accept a major cut as if he doesn't get a CC
Dave Kearney and Fergus McFadden: Are they now surplus to requirements?
I'm presuming Tracy and Bent know their standing and will happily take new Provincal deals. Rumours were Van Der Flier was demanding a CC and well that definitely won't happen so I'm presuming he will have to decide his next move.
Ruddock I think is no risk and will sign. Ringrose won't be getting a CC and I'd predict he will take Provincal deal and hope to get CC in 2/3 years.
Another 1 near renewal is McGrath supposedly. And it's being asked with Healy and McGrath both in 1 squad and Ireland being well equipped at LHP will 1 have to come down. But this is conflicting to as it not known McGrath deal definite. I thought he was tied until Japan

Let's not forget with no B&I Cup funds are down too

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

If there are cost savings to be made, you'd assume Leinster have options.

Isa Nacewa could retire. Fergus McFadden could take a pay cut or move on. Michael Bent could move also seeing as Leinster are giving younger tightheads Andrew Porter and Vakh Abdaladze game time. Jordi Murphy moving would also be a cost saving. Richardt Strauss isn't getting as much game time as he once did.

Not saying I want all of the above to happen but if tough choices have to be made, those appear to be options.

Would be very reluctant to lose Sean Cronin, James Tracy, Rob Kearney, Rhys Ruddock, Josh van der Flier, Tadhg Furlong and Garry Ringrose. Would assume Dave Kearney will also get a contract based on lack of options out wide. Not sure Leinster would like to go into next season with only James Lowe, Adam Byrne and Barry Daly as front line wingers.

 

[munstermuffin]

Just on squad. It has been confirmed James Lowe WON'T be allowed play against Exeter. Only 2 overseas players are allowed in a match squad and Leinster have selected JPG and Fardy.

On the above Snoop it may be a case of struggling to fit them all in though. Like there is young wingers coming through. Ringrose Jr seems a good winger

 

[Amiga500]

Is the current central contracting model the best approach?

At the minute you have (to my knowledge):
- provinces negotiating provincial deals which are relatively limited in salary
- IRFU deeming certain players to be worthy of central contracts, so players getting (i) elevated above most of their peers or (ii) publicly considered beneath some of their peers. The IRFU then negotiates these contracts

Would a better approach not be one of:
(A) IRFU controls all negotiations for professional rugby players on the island. Provinces can be present for negotiations as observers, they can request player movement from one province to another then if they deem it appropriate, the IRFU can ask the player would they consider it.

(B) The IRFU gives each province a budget "bounty" for based on their average contribution to the national squad over the previous 3 or 4 years. The province spend this as they see fit. They are allowed a maximum of X NIQ and Y project players.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

Jordan Larmour, Hugo Keenan and Jack Kelly are talented too but it still would leave Leinster light at the position.

Never thought I'd say this but I kind of envy Munster's options in Andrew Conway, Keith Earls, Darren Sweetnam, Alex Wootton and Calvin Nash!

 

[munstermuffin]

Jordan Larmour, Hugo Keenan and Jack Kelly are talented too but it still would leave Leinster light at the position.

Never thought I'd say this but I kind of envy Munster's options in Andrew Conway, Keith Earls, Darren Sweetnam, Alex Wootton and Calvin Nash!

But more my point Snoop. Dave Kearney is not a million miles better than few youngsters. When it gets to that level in depth are you better paying lower for youngstr guy than more for older guy. Like whatever my views on DK he is classed an international and well I'm sure his wage will demand that status.

@Amiga500 they are currently looking at reforming the contract layout but it only at brainstorming now

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

But more my point Snoop. Dave Kearney is not a million miles better than few youngsters. When it gets to that level in depth are you better paying lower for youngstr guy than more for older guy. Like whatever my views on DK he is classed an international and well I'm sure his wage will demand that status.

@Amiga500 they are currently looking at reforming the contract layout but it only at brainstorming now

Are all central contracts currently three years??

 

[munstermuffin]

Are all central contracts currently three years??

No. All Central Contracts are basically just the IRFU funding and effectively loaning player to province. No that it would ever happen but TECHNICALLY if IRFU said to Leinster that we want Sean O'Brien for instance to play centre and Leinster said no. Then that is breach of the agreement and he could be moved to another province. Now that is an extreme and it all just theory as IRFU own the lot so it will never happen. But Central deals are more for accounting and budget side than anything but is very helpful as it is said Leinster save up to 1.5-1.8million a year on wages which can be freed up to sign higher calibre of NIQ.
But again it all budgetary stiff as effectively all earnings of all provinces goes to the same bucket and that bucket pays out.
But back to original bit no some CCs are for 2 years. An example is Rory Best may be offered a new 2 year CC. Paul O'Connells last deal was 2 years. He signed a year before Toulon offer.
Also law is it supposed to be 1 of each position like you can't have 2 9s etc but that is gone now by McGrath and Healy both on CC. There is alot of flaws and fairness issues attached. And I don't mean just that by fact Leinster get most benefit from wages but for example of Leinster won everything for next 10 years and sold out every game they'd still receive same as rest of provinces. But it gets messy with things like IRFU look after RDS rent to certain extent, obviously is with Thomond and Ulster had help with Kingspan.
The issue now is for them to gauge how to allow outside funding without losing control

 

[Amiga500]

The issue now is for them to gauge how to allow outside funding without losing control

Easy. They already do get outside funding. Its called sponsorship.

 

[munstermuffin]

Easy. They already do get outside funding. Its called sponsorship.

No. Sponsorship is minimal. They need a few more to help like the Sexton style deal where outside funds help. Sponsorship is very small when it isn't jersey sponsorship.