The Welsh Regions Joining the Premiership?

[psychic duck]

Really looking forward to Pontypridd v Edinburgh and North Wales v Zebre!

It's like the Scottish model of pro domestic rugby. But the teams being based in Hawick and Inverness instead of the population centres. The WRU are clueless, how are they going to set these teams up? They will have a tiny following and will be **** on the pitch as well. The morons genuinely seem to think sabotaging the current regions for joke ones that they have control of is in Wales' best interests.

Initially they will be a joke if we get an all out war. Lewis'/The WRU's trump card is how Wales international players are selected. I suspect the WRU will decide that if you play for one of the rebel regions (for want of a better term), you can't represent Wales. Who'd want to sign for/stick with Dragons, Blues, Ospreys or Scarlets if that was the case? PRL wouldn't be long about discarding RRW teams from the Anglo-Welsh League then.

Which will be more idiocy on the WRU's part if they were to do that. The players won't go to play for Pontypridd or North Wales and play for joke teams, they would just all go to France or England. That will destroy Welsh domestic rugby completely and in turn the national team would start to struggle as well, and the legacy of the WRU confrontational aggressive approach to power over the 4 regions will be felt for many years to come. The Welsh domestic teams are shot for at least the next 5-10 years probably now anyway, but there is a danger of just killing it completely.

 

[Peat]

Of course it occurs to the players they are just more loyal to the clubs they play for than the RFU. Also to centrally contract the players the clubs would still have to agree to sub contract them outside internationals. Sorry its just not practical in the English game at least.

Lets break this into two parts -

Maybe the players are more loyal to the clubs.

But I don't see any evidence for it. Loyalty to individual clubs is dwindling in terms of player movement. The players themselves haven't really got involved. Maybe I've missed it, but I've seen no great announcements. What the players want is to support their families and achieve their dreams. Right now the clubs offer the former and the international game the latter. If the RFU goes to the best players and say "We can offer both" I think they will win. Because they can offer both and they can deny the latter. The clubs can't.

As for it not being practical - that's not true. If the best players are only available on central contracts the clubs will simply have to lump it and agree. If they don't, the RFU will find clubs that do agree. Without RFU money and without the best talent playing, what do the clubs have to offer?

Of course, this is all incredibly theoretical. The RFU do not have a taste for this. But all matters of practicality are simply down to how many people want it. This is not practical because no one wants it. If the RFU wants it, it becomes a bit more practical. If the RFU persuades the top players it's on, it's done.

edit: PD - Without disagreeing with you to the foolishness of it all, it does seem to be their plan to a point. I'm guessing their plan is to ruin the regions and bring them under control quickly and then rebuild from there. Long term, of course they intend their teams to be in Cardiff, Swansea et al. It would seem they believe a player is better off in France than at a non-compliant region, because that ruins the regions quicker, bringing them under control quicker.

Rather risky to say the least. But then, so is the Regions' plan imo.

edit edit: At this rate, the Irish will be better off running the Interpros along with the Pro 12 and relying on that to increase funds. Ironically if the IRB, FIRA and other bodies wanted it, a Welsh-less Pro12 could be a spark for growing top level professional rugby in Europe... guess what won't happen though.

 

[ratsapprentice]

If the RFU sanction this they will also be infringing upon IRB rules.
Not going to end well.

Also: I completely agree with Peat's post, above. It's entirely possible to do, but it requires the RFU to have the will to do it in the first place!

 

[McTallshort]

Rather risky to say the least. But then, so is the Regions' plan imo.

Everyone is taking risks here and I cannot see how the whole thing will resolve itself and the more I think about it the worse it looks. So Im going to leave it there and go and feed my daughter because thats how things roll in the Tallshort house hold on New Year!

 

[j'nuh]

An extended European tournament to replace domestic rugby will not work for England or Wales. It will also stop working for Ireland within a few years, although this route may be preferable to the one where the Welsh depart from the Pro12 and leave the Irish in the mud. For different reasons, I doubt the French would want it. For different reasons yet again, the Italians and Scottish would be doomed by it. It may keep them financially afloat, but I'm not confident it will grow the game in these countries. I'll flesh this out as much as I can when I have the time, but I don't think a European tournament is feasible or desirable for many of the nations (although it may be the only option for a few of the nations)...

Ok, time to flesh it out:

The Scottish competing in an elite, Europe-wide tournament wouldn't be pretty. They might be likelier to survive financially, at least initially, but I don't think being consistently beaten does anything for the growth of rugby. For me, Scottish domestic rugby is probably beyond hope in any format. There's too little interest in the game and the clubs aren't growing as fast as the powerhouses of Europe. They cannot keep up. Even when they are handed disproportionately high amounts of money from the HC, they struggle. For me, Scotland should be allowed to revert to semi-professionalism. Focus spending on SRU-sponsored academies and pump out the players. The best clubs can maybe join the English system and compete in the Championship, but the ultimate aim must be to pump out the players who then move to other nations for their club rugby. Argentina and the Pacific Islanders have done well enough for themselves doing this.

Similar story for the Italians. Won't compete in Europe. But I have a lot more hope for the growth of rugby in Italy. I personally think that having a small number of teams to represent the highest level of rugby may be impeding growth of rugby in Italy. Italy is a big country and clubs must be allowed to take the national limelight and create rivalries and have a strong club system. One day, they might have something similar to the Premiership/Top14. This would allow them to be self-reliant as well. Again, I think that the short-term future would mean losing a number of internationals, but I think it might be a good long-term move.

For France and England, Europe won't work simply because there's a strong overriding national interest to see clubs play other clubs within the nation. A European tournament would necessitate splitting because everyone can't play everyone home and away. This would mean that French and English teams would have to give up a lot of fixtures against home sides. Not many people would be happy with this. On top of this, I don't think English teams would compete. Throwing away rivalries and also placing ourselves in a tournament I don't think we have a chance of winning in wouldn't be a wise idea for me.

For Wales, Wales are struggling to get the fans in as it is. This leads me to a very general worry I have about a European tournament that I think everyone would suffer by: Europe is okay as a rare thing. Asking fans to travel across Europe for a few times a year can work. But it won't work if the whole club rugby system requires fans to travel out of the country on a regular basis just to watch their team. The thing that I think makes national club rugby work is that you'll be able to attend most matches on a day's travel and without flight. It makes it much easier for travelling fans, and these travelling fans help to create an atmosphere that entices home fans. This is why derbies are always well-attended. You only have to compare attendances of Welsh derbies vs. non-Welsh derbies to see this. Added to this, a European tournament when it may end up splitting apart local rivals? If the Welsh regions aren't drawn to face each other, then they'll just end up losing a financially valuable fixture. It's the wrong path to take imo.

For Ireland... well, Ireland would probably benefit out of a European arrangement, but this is only in the context of how precarious their situation is right now. It would still be a far from ideal arrangement.

Here's my "solution":

- France get left to the Top14.
- Italy set up a club rugby system.
- Scotland unfortunately have to take a hit. It would have come sooner or later imo, perhaps best not to postpone the inevitable.

- My idea for an English-Irish-Welsh league:

The 20 teams form into two groups of 10. These groups comprise of:

Set A: 6 English, 4 Welsh
Set B: 6 English, 4 Irish

You play home and away within your set, and one home/away fixture outside of your set. This means 28 games (18 within your set, 10 outside) and every team gets to play every other team.
In addition, I'd block the English into rivalries. Group the 12 clubs into four sets of three (eg, one group of three would be Bath, Glos and Wuss/Bristol, another would be Tigers, Saints and Sale etc.).
These four blocks are randomly selected into each set. So you would have:

Set A: England 1, England 2, Welsh
Set B: England 3, England 4, Irish

This should work to rotate the fixtures and maybe add a little excitement to the fixture draw whilst keeping local rivalries intact.

This system greatly reduces the travelling distance for the Welsh and Irish hopefully creating a better tournament, but also improves the standard of the league for the English. The only down side is that the English teams face 6 fewer fixtures against fellow English teams, which is a bit of a problem.

A trophy for winning your set but the grand prize for winning a playoffs between the top teams of each set.

Could work?

Personally, I'd just about prefer the simplicity of a 16-team home-and-away Anglo-Welsh league, especially given how close the teams are to one another. But I'd also be happy to extend help to Ireland in this kind of system.

 

[Peat]

Am I the only one who wishes that the non-French unions would just shrug and run a HEC without them under 6N authority? It seems to me that would solve a huge amount...

 

[profitius]

J'nuh, I don't think a British Irish league would work. Theres too much conflict between the clubs and unions. The Welsh regions are regions by names only. They're privately owned teams.


Your idea of leaving out Scotland and Italy would be a big no no for me. I want to see the game spread, not contract like soccer. Of all the thousands of soccer clubs in Europe theres a handful of them who are good enough to win the champions league.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Am I the only one who wishes that the non-French unions would just shrug and run a HEC without them under 6N authority? It seems to me that would solve a huge amount...

Could England, though?
Or Wales, for that matter.
For all intents and purposes the Scottish/Irish regions=unions, but England/Wales have the PRL/RRW which, I imagine, wouldn't be keen.

 

[Peat]

Could England, though?
Or Wales, for that matter.
For all intents and purposes the Scottish/Irish regions=unions, but England/Wales have the PRL/RRW which, I imagine, wouldn't be keen.

Well, supposedly PRL is happy to take up that idea, and it's only the FFR saying no. I imagine PRL will take anything that involves them getting all their money from BT. Whether it works not having the French involved, I don't know, but you'd have thought they'd get more money this way.

As for the Welsh regions, nothing's going to work for them while the regions and union are going mental at each other.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Wouldn't the six nations running the comp lead to the death of the PRL though? If the rfu are in charge, what use do the PRL serve?

 

[Peat]

Wouldn't the six nations running the comp lead to the death of the PRL though? If the rfu are in charge, what use do the PRL serve?

Running the Premiership and representing top flight club interests, same as before? PRL only has a seat on ERC because RFU gave it to them, no? The RFU could always let PRL represent them in the new HEC, and negotiate the English part of the TV deal.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Ah, I think I've misunderstood what youre saying, which is understandable considering the amount of jack Daniels ive consumed.
Thought you were advocating the euro-league, rather than domestic leagues + a euro.

 

[smartcooky]

Why not just dissolve the ERC and have the Six Nations run the HEC as is but with the fairer financial distribution and better meritocracy.

1. All the money will then be in place for next season
2. RRW will be happy and will get their £16M
3. PRL will be happy as the ERC will be out of the picture
4. FFR will have LNR teams in the existing HEC even if ERC are no longer in charge
5. For the Irish it will be business as usual
6. The Scots and the Eyetyes will be happy just to still be involved

 

[ratsapprentice]

That was supposedly accepted by all parties except the French clubs.

 

[Peat]

Ah, I think I've misunderstood what youre saying, which is understandable considering the amount of jack Daniels ive consumed.
Thought you were advocating the euro-league, rather than domestic leagues + a euro.

You have. Lightweight northern monkey.

--

I have to say, I'm rather peeved at France's whole FIRA stroke. This could be settled.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

You have. Lightweight northern monkey.

--

I have to say, I'm rather peeved at France's whole FIRA stroke. This could be settled.

Fight me, southern fairy!

 

[Prestwick]

Fight me, southern fairy!

 

[St George]

Why not just dissolve the ERC and have the Six Nations run the HEC as is but with the fairer financial distribution and better meritocracy.

1. All the money will then be in place for next season
2. RRW will be happy and will get their £16M
3. PRL will be happy as the ERC will be out of the picture
4. FFR will have LNR teams in the existing HEC even if ERC are no longer in charge
5. For the Irish it will be business as usual
6. The Scots and the Eyetyes will be happy just to still be involved

Which i believe is what is proposed by the RFU. The FFR object though because they want Fira involved by all accounts. This is why i have been suggesting that all the above is put in place and achieved, and also incorporate Fira as a junior partner to bring them along in terms of developing them alongside the existing 6N structures. I think the original PRL/LNR ECC proposal suggested incorporating non-6N teams in the lower Euro comp, so that could be where Fira has more of an input. A decade or so down the line would see more strength in the non-6N nations which would be good for rugby worldwide as a whole.

The one point that must be taken into account is that some leagues/nations contribute in participation terms more than others and so revenue distribution must take that into account. Dividing £1m between 12 teams whilst dividing another £1m between 4 teams and another £1m between 2, just because they are in other leagues or unions, generates ill feeling in the end. My example above would mean £3m going between 18 teams for an even distribution to the individual teams.

Its not rocket science, but as i have also been saying....we have a professional sport run by amateurs.

 

[dullonien]

Anyone know how easily the players at the existing regions could jump ship if the worst happened and new regions had to be set up?

On the one hand they are contracted to the regions, but on the other the regions would have changed so much that the contracts could be considered null and void. The regions would no longer be sanctioned by the WRU, they wouldn't be playing in the Pro12 or HC. They'd essentially only be the same entities by name only.

 

[j'nuh]

I think there's another argument that hasn't been had yet - is the WRU's insistence to drive the regions into the ground a good reason to waive or even discard the ruling that unions have control over the domestic games in their respective countries?

The self-interests of the unions, particularly in regards to the national teams, surely makes them a terrible arbiter on domestic competitions. It's like your worst nemesis being picked for the jury.

Although the formation of the domestic tournaments should be down to the unions, I think that once set up, the regions/clubs should be self-ruled. No need for permissions to join certain competitions. One exception: the unions should have the right to add a player release clause for international windows, and also have the right to negotiate further release where necessary. But beyond that, I don't see why the unions should be involved.