The Welsh Regions Joining the Premiership?

[profitius]

Many posters have raised good points. While a large section of the Welsh region fans blame the Rabo for their attendances, they should really be concentrating on developing themselves instead of relying on outsiders. Thats what it boils down to.

 

[Rumpi]

All those attendances are still better than the comparable Rabo games. Welsh domestic rugby has never had 20,000 week in week out and won't in the forseeable future, realistically in the current climate (all Welsh sides knocked out by round 2) that Toulon crowd is good for the Blues and their highest of the season. They are not going to be selling 20,000 tickets against any side whilst the team loses to Zebre.

Also you've isolated games from when the regions are being starved and dismantled and their competitiveness is dwindling. The Blues got 44,000 for the HEC semi with Leicester in 2009, and 37,000 in the quarter. The Ospreys got 18,000 for pool games with Leicester and Gloucester, and got a good crowd for the EDF semi with Saracens in 2008. The derby double header last season got 36,000. There is demand for the derbies and competitive sides in the HEC and Premiership there is no market for the Rabo with games against Connacht, Munster reserves and the Scots and Italians.

And if the regions end up staying in the Rabo, then the attendances will drop further by the way. They will be more on a par with the Scots. If there is limited market for good sides in the Rabo, then there will minute market for **** sides who've lost all their players. Competitive Welsh domestic rugby dies for good under Roger Lewis.

The stats might prove otherwise but seemed to me to be small enough crowds for the provincial derbies in Ireland over the festive period, (apart from Leinster v ulster), think the weakened teams had an effect, as well as the lousy weather. The fact that the IRFU use the competition as a warm up tool for senior international players means the provinces are often trying out a lot of young players en mass, continues to undermine the competition as a whole. Should rabo teams continue to lose top internationals the appeal of the rabo slips further.

How are the crowds holding up at club level in wales? They're decimated here with a lot of clubs matches attended by 2 men and a dog, where they would have drawn a decent crowd in the past. A lot of clubs are in serious financial trouble, including some traditional clubs.

Noted the wales online article where the clubs say they are struggling with playing numbers & volunteers. Reflects the problems at grassroots in Ireland as well, players get snapped up by the provincial academies straight from school & might never play senior for their clubs. The clubs themselves rely on selling their international ticket allocations to stay afloat. The number of willing volunteers has dropped of since the game went pro.

Central contracts are all well & good but the IFRU is struggling to match the wage inflation. They had to borrow €25million because 10 year ticket sales fell well short of expectations. Simply can't keep up with the French tv deals. As others have said, the new French tv deal is going to suck in more rabo players and IF their is European competition next season, we will be getting a smaller slice of the overall pie, putting us at more of a disadvantage, financially.

 

[dullonien]

Yeah, I can't disagree with you Duck regarding the overall quality of the Rabo. It is something I believe is fixable if all teams are pro-active in addressing it. The proposed change in qualification for Europe (if there is an EuroCup) would also help. But it is a huge concern, and something which would need to be sorted if the Pro12 goes ahead next season. As you have said previously in the thread Duck, dropping the 4th AI would be a sensible start, especially as it falls so close to the second round of European matches. Alternatively, any profits from the 4th AI could go directly to the regions, the regions could choose which they would prefer.

Regarding attendance figures, if the support base isn't there, especially with Premier League footy taking the spotlight, then maybe it's worth deciding now whether the current set-up is the right one going forwards. If it needs to change, now is the time to do it. Can we realistically sustain 4 regions? Going down to 3 would result in much stronger regions, with more quality players available to each region, and more money (especially if the WRU increased funding as well).

However, going down to 3 without changing the regional boundaries wouldn't divide the existing rugby strongholds very well imo. Cardiff Blues could end up with a huge region consisting of Cardiff, Newport, Gwent and much of the Valleys. Central contracts could help with the division of players, with the WRU allocating players to certain regions (maybe only from certain clubs such as Newport and Ponty), but nothing would change the fact that Cardiff would have a potential supporter-base hugely in excess of the Scarlets (difficult to judge mid-Wales and north Wales as realistic catchment areas for them).

 

[ratsapprentice]

http://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/feat...onship-clubs-rage-over-anglo-welsh-proposals/

 

[Rumpi]

The Irish Times are reporting the Seán O'Brien will sign for Toulon soon. Can't blame the guy because I'm sure they are offering him the kind of money that would be very hard to turn down. If he and Heaslip go, it'll be a huge blow to Leinster. Same report says that the IRFU are offering Heaslip less money then his current deal, so both could be gone to Toulon next summer.

Highlights that central contracts are not a panacea, the IRFU is struggling to support professional rugby, or at least now that wage inflation is being driven up beyond their means, despite our apparent success.

Leinster will have a lot of rebuilding to do next season with O'Driscoll & Cullen retiring as well, Darcy isn't getting any younger either, we'll see how the bandwagon reacts to a few years rebuilding, I suspect the new found fans will disappear as quickly as they arrived if things get tough for the provinces.

 

[dullonien]

Yeah, everyone is struggling to compete with France especially, the WRU don't have the financial clout either. That's my one problem with RRW's claims that joining the RCC will somehow solve their financial crisis. They are in line to make an extra £1m from the competition, but the English and French clubs are in line to make substantially more with the proposed restructuring of how revenue is split (it's probably a fair way to divide the money equally per team, but it does give a larger slice to the already rich clubs than they are getting atm). So whilst it may help secure those players out of contract right now, it'll probably only lead to a worse exodus in the future, with French and English clubs participating in the RCC having even more money to offer Welsh and Irish based players.

http://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/feat...onship-clubs-rage-over-anglo-welsh-proposals/

This is a huge stumbling block to the Anglo-Welsh plan, and one which I don't think is solvable. Does the RFU really want to open up this can of worms? I highly doubt it. It's also interesting to note Irvine's comments regarding the plans that only one of the Welsh regions would be able to be relegated each season, claiming that RPL have no jurisdiction over promotion/relegation.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

A saviour cometh.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/david-moffett-surprise-bid-make-6481499

Moffett isn't exactly the most popular person among Welsh fans judging by the comments section!

 

[Draggs]

Moffo bored of retirement?

 

[dullonien]

A saviour cometh.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/david-moffett-surprise-bid-make-6481499

Moffett isn't exactly the most popular person among Welsh fans judging by the comments section!

I don't even know what to make of Moffett. Regional rugby was partly his brainchild, something which has ultimately been responsible for the resurgence of the national team. However the regions were somewhat botched from the off, something I personally blame the clubs for (they refused the initial sensible regions proposed by the WRU, and put forwards two proposals of their own, one of which we are left with now), but maybe the WRU needed to be stricter on the clubs and not allow Newport, Cardiff and Llanelli to dictate matters.

The mess that was the Warriors wasn't entirely his fault either, with Samuels and the fans having significant roles as well, but it has to be said that after buying them out Moffett and the WRU didn't keep their word.

So overall, very mixed feelings about Moffett in general.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

From the outside looking in, Moffett seems to be an egomaniac and it's hard to ignore the dislike a lot of the Welsh rugby public have for him. I'm guessing it's largely region related.

That said, he left Welsh rugby in a pretty healthy state. He got the budget under control, removed the increasingly meaningless A fixtures from the calendar, condensed the club scene into 5 (and then 4) regions which played a part in their exceptional 6 Nations successes and formalised the Anglo-Welsh (LV= Cup) to bring in more money for the regions.

 

[flashash2k9]

It's good to read peoples views on things when you already know what's going to happen. Roger Lewis is dead in the water. That whole new PA was only announced because the rest of the board stood up to him, it's the first time they're done this. Increasingly you'll find that roger Lewis has been lying to different sources, telling varying stories etc. The regions have a deal set with the English Premiership. All of the clubs are on board, the PRL is on board, and lastly the RFU are on board. It's a 5 year deal, and is seen as a plan "B" if the WRU don't do the honourable thing and allow the regions into the new BT cup. In which they'd gain a further £1mil each from the TV and then added to that, whatever the French and Italians can get for their TV deals, and they'll be put into a kitty and spread equally. The board in charge of the cup would be the 6 nations committee, so the fear that the clubs would gain power over the unions is a bit farcical. But that's the current issue in Wales. Roger Lewis and Dai Pickering have become somewhat paranoid that the regions will gain power and thus become a stronger force than the WRU. Everything I've heard from both sides of the argument seems to suggest that Dai and Roger have both lost it.

 

[dullonien]

It's good to read peoples views on things when you already know what's going to happen. Roger Lewis is dead in the water. That whole new PA was only announced because the rest of the board stood up to him, it's the first time they're done this. Increasingly you'll find that roger Lewis has been lying to different sources, telling varying stories etc. The regions have a deal set with the English Premiership. All of the clubs are on board, the PRL is on board, and lastly the RFU are on board. It's a 5 year deal, and is seen as a plan "B" if the WRU don't do the honourable thing and allow the regions into the new BT cup. In which they'd gain a further £1mil each from the TV and then added to that, whatever the French and Italians can get for their TV deals, and they'll be put into a kitty and spread equally. The board in charge of the cup would be the 6 nations committee, so the fear that the clubs would gain power over the unions is a bit farcical. But that's the current issue in Wales. Roger Lewis and Dai Pickering have become somewhat paranoid that the regions will gain power and thus become a stronger force than the WRU. Everything I've heard from both sides of the argument seems to suggest that Dai and Roger have both lost it.

You do realise that none of those are done deals yet? From what I understand, the RFU haven't sanctioned anything regarding the Welsh regions joining the Prem. France haven't agreed to a new EuroCup run by the 6 nations committee. And on top of all that, the IRB have outlined their stance that they will not sanction any cross border competition which hasn't got the backing of the individual unions.

We still have no idea what is going to happen.

 

[Amiga500]

The regions have a deal set with the English Premiership. All of the clubs are on board, the PRL is on board, and lastly the RFU are on board. It's a 5 year deal, and is seen as a plan "B" if the WRU don't do the honourable thing and allow the regions into the new BT cup.

Your bold proclamation in your first line is not exactly backed up by strong logic in the following lines.

- If the WRU don't allow the regions into the BT Euro Cup, why would they let them into the Anglo-Welsh league? In which case, to form the league, the PRL and RRW would have to leave the sport of Rugby Union. Or at the very least, the RFU could wave goodbye to "their" world cup.

- Are all of the clubs on board? Perhaps all the PRL clubs are on board, but are the RFU clubs? Certainly those in the RFU Championship will be anything but on board given existing conflicts between then and PRL. If it goes to a vote amongst member clubs, assuming RFU agreement is perhaps foolish.

- You assume the Italians will join the BT Euro Cup when they have not made any inclination of doing so.

- You assume the French will join the BT Euro Cup, despite the FFR being quite adamant this would never come to be.


None of us know what is going to happen. At best we can postulate to the motives of each party and make predictions of the long-term effects of each solution.

Personally, I think:

1. WRU want the regions dead or wholly owned branches of the WRU. At the moment there is too much whining, not enough crowds, not enough player retention, too much conflict with WRU, lack of confidence in financial wisdom etc etc etc.
2. The PRL want total control of the professional game in England. The long term effects of this are a source of strong contention on this forum; I think its a very bad thing, others think its a good thing and yet others think it'd make no difference.
3. The SRU, IRFU and FIR want continuity, as they seek stability and continued growth. Although this might be a bit overly conservative.
4. The FFR want more control over their clubs and a greater focus on developing indigenous players.
5. The LNR want total control of the professional game in France. See (2) for effects.
6. The RFU just want the problems to go away so they can put the feet up and watch reruns of Dad's Army and Last of the Summer Wine.


In terms of what should happen, IMO:
1. Good. WRU control would have more stability for the game and allow for better investment where needed across the game in Wales.
2. Bad, very bad. It'd reduce RFU funds for developing the grassroots game. Eroding the foundations of what is a niche sport would be a fatal move IMO.
3. I would prefer FIRA to have more involvement and the lower tier nations involved more with the Tier 1 crowd.
4. Good.
5. See 2.
6. Send them a DVD set of Porridge.

 

[St George]

the IRB have outlined their stance that they will not sanction any cross border competition which hasn't got the backing of the individual unions.

This does keep cropping up in parallel with the WRU saying they are not allowed to enter teams into competitions that the IRB havent sanctioned.

My Mum used to have a saying that encompasses these two Professional bodies....Duck-shoving.

 

[St George]

Personally, I think:

1. WRU want the regions dead or wholly owned branches of the WRU. At the moment there is too much whining, not enough crowds, not enough player retention, too much conflict with WRU, lack of confidence in financial wisdom etc etc etc.
2. The PRL want total control of the professional game in England. The long term effects of this are a source of strong contention on this forum; I think its a very bad thing, others think its a good thing and yet others think it'd make no difference.
3. The SRU, IRFU and FIR want continuity, as they seek stability and continued growth. Although this might be a bit overly conservative.
4. The FFR want more control over their clubs and a greater focus on developing indigenous players.
5. The LNR want total control of the professional game in France. See (2) for effects.
6. The RFU just want the problems to go away so they can put the feet up and watch reruns of Dad's Army and Last of the Summer Wine.


In terms of what should happen, IMO:
1. Good. WRU control would have more stability for the game and allow for better investment where needed across the game in Wales.
2. Bad, very bad. It'd reduce RFU funds for developing the grassroots game. Eroding the foundations of what is a niche sport would be a fatal move IMO.
3. I would prefer FIRA to have more involvement and the lower tier nations involved more with the Tier 1 crowd.
4. Good.
5. See 2.
6. Send them a DVD set of Porridge.

Fantasy based on assumption....IMO.

I havent seen anyone suggest that the PRL getting "total control" would be a good thing. Or the PRL saying they want that.

IMO you have one group of financially unsustainable teams trying to become more sustainable.
And one group of amateurs calling themselves professionals acting like amateurs.
The latter it seems is hell bent on holding the former back from achieving their goal.

 

[Amiga500]

I havent seen anyone suggest that the PRL getting "total control" would be a good thing. Or the PRL saying they want that.

So exactly what part of professional rugby do the PRL not want to control?

Sporting arrangements of domestic game? Yep.
Commercial arrangements of domestic game? Yep.
Sporting arrangements of international club-game? Yep.
Commercial arrangements of international-club game? Yep.

No doubt, McCafferty would love to control fixtures, commercial agreements and the revenue distribution of the international team.


If you don't want the PRL to have total control, then why are you in favour of them establishing their own competition, which cuts the RFU completely out of the loop? Hence giving PRL "total control".

IMO you have one group of financially unsustainable teams trying to become more sustainable.

Correct. In 2012, half of PRL clubs were running at losses in excess of £1.5m a year and the league as a whole was losing over £16m a year. Only 4/12 clubs made a profit.

Very well run organisations.

And one group of amateurs calling themselves professionals acting like amateurs.

Professionals typically don't conduct their negotiations in the press.

Do you see Airbus talk to, say, BA, through the press? Or do you see the soccer premierleague talk to Sky, BT etc through the press?

The latter it seems is hell bent on holding the former back from achieving their goal.

There is two sides to sustainability. Income and cost. In 2011, Saracens spent ~90% of their turnover on wages.

If the PRL had a realistic salary cap and enforced it, they wouldn't have their present issues.

If more of their clubs owned their own grounds, they would be in a much better position too, but that would need significant strategic investment.

 

[munstermuffin]

What makes regions think they'll get more fans in?

 

[Amiga500]

What makes regions think they'll get more fans in?

Rose-tinted glasses.


[I think a lot of people do genuinely believe they will get more fans in with an Anglo-Welsh league - but given the stats of the HEC for one-off games which should attract more in as opposed to the familiarity fatigue of a league program - it really does appear to be wishful thinking.]

 

[smartcooky]

Rose-tinted glasses.


[I think a lot of people do genuinely believe they will get more fans in with an Anglo-Welsh league - but given the stats of the HEC for one-off games which should attract more in as opposed to the familiarity fatigue of a league program - it really does appear to be wishful thinking.]

Yep. For example, if Scarlets fans don't show up v Saints in the Heineken Cup (less than 10,000 last time they met) what on Earth would make anyone think would they show up for the same game just because its an Anglo-Welsh Cup?

 

[McTallshort]

Think some people here are clueless about the problems facing Welsh domestic rugby at the minute, they seem to think that if they model themselves on the Irish or NZ domestic game all things will be happy but what they forget is currently the 4 welsh regions are competing against 2 Premiership football teams (something fans in NZ and Ireland would know nothing about) a Union that seems more than happy playing its players in a full international a week before a HC weekend and a salary cap below all but 1 of the Irish provinces.

To think the Welsh regions should just put up and shut up is very arrogant and very condescending, why the hell shouldnt they try and join the EPL if they think it will help them, if the WRU wants to try and block them then perhaps they should remember what happened in Football when the WFA tried to stop welsh teams joining the then English league.