It worries me how good England could be if the Academies are probably not that good and we still won the U20 World Cup with the Welsh as finalists?
Ditto your second paragraph on all counts. To dilute it down even more would be absurd.
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The Welsh Regions Joining the Premiership?
- Thread starter j'nuh
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It worries me how good England could be if the Academies are probably not that good and we still won the U20 World Cup with the Welsh as finalists?
Ditto your second paragraph on all counts. To dilute it down even more would be absurd.
I don't live in Dublin, I'm not going on a 4 hour round trip to see a team trying out youngsters, never mind paying hard earned money to see it. if that makes me not a 'real fan' then so be it. Judging from the crowds at those rounds of matches over christmas there aren't many real fans by your definition.
You seem to be unwilling to countenance any criticism of the rabo at all, there's a reason the welsh & Scottish punters aren't interested. There's a reason it's tv deals are tiny. There's a reason they're struggling to find a replacement sponsor. I'm saying what I think the issues are but you have your head firmly in the sand.
I think that could be said of many of us forum users. :lol:
I meant it more in Clubs bringing them guys through not that they are poor for example here JJ Hanrahan was world player of year yet is extremely slow coming through because management are too cautious. Regards winning World Cup that doesn't mean much if it's not followed through.
@Rump Leinster hold their own in fan base and I don't refer to you but to blame Rabo alone is wrong. Welsh had issues from off due to regions being set up and Scottish rugby is poor and both them aren't due to Rabo league. They barely show for HEC too. Also Irish teams put out under strength teams but still sell out or pack 90% attendances majority of time. What's regions excuse o
Agreed, and although im not against squad rotation if done properly to maintain player health fitness etc, i think an honest mid table (even lower at the start) would also keep the top teams honest as they have to contend with supposedly harder games.
Im not that far off agreeing with you as i think the development of "the kids" (as Mark Lawrenson used to call the Beckhams and Scholes's), can sometimes be slow due to their age. In football and cricket it is the same.
And i am so pleased to see some of the WC winners in the latest 6N squad. Yes albeit due to injuries, but great to see none the less.
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Leinster got a full house of 18500 at the RDS for the Ulster game. Connacht got close to a full house of 7,200 for the Leinster game. Ulster got a full house of close to 14,000 for the Munster game. Munster drew almost 19,000 for the Connacht game. I don't see how you can make the claim that crowds over the Christmas period weren't good.
I give far more credence to this point. Playing a full strength team every week with the current schedule would lead to player burnout. The schedule needs to be cut down. Get rid of games in the 6 Nations and November test periods. Change the Pro 12 to a 14 game regular season - Irish sides play each other home and away (6 games) and the other 8 teams home or away (8 games). The same holds for Welsh teams and Scottish/Italian teams. The reduced number of home games is offset by smaller squads being required and more punters paying in to see full strength sides play which is more of an issue outside Ireland.
On this a lot is made of Irish teams rotating etc. But when the provinces rotate they remain competitive and in Munster alone Hanrahan Foley Cronin and Johne Murphy have all broke in to team this season based on "rotation". Like I'd say something if province were going out and rolling over but it's far from it. Minsters heaviest defeat was last year with a full strength team against Glasgow a week before HEC QF.
So I will ask how do Irish weaken Rabo or lessen its value in anyway.
- They consistently have great attendances
- Remain competitive despite rotation
And league is in tough spot because Welsh region never fully wanted to be regions and never bought in to it and for some reason they think they will join English and it'll be oh so better why because overall they'll gain what an extra 200-300k a year but loose a lot more.
For example Nigel Owens refs some training matches but will be forbidden to do so if they're not affiliated with WRU.
Also they'll be competing with WRUs new clubs/regions in what is a small pool of players.
Snoop that will hurt financial income though and you will still have some who will argue some have it unfairly ie Connacht schedule compared to Glasgow. But as you pointed out the Irish do sell out and are consistent in being competitive
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A lot of the impact from 4 fewer home game per season in the league could be offset. For example each squad could probably carry 6 fewer players. There are also 4 fewer away games and less costs incurred there. Higher quality teams every week should see a pick up in crowds. This would in turn improve the position with relation to league sponsorship and commercial deals. There would also be more space in the calendar for traditional tours i.e. southern hemisphere teams playing midweek games against the regions/provinces/districts and the spin off effects of that.
Getting back on topic, that would placate one of the Welsh regions issues about full strength teams not being fielded every week.
Well when you put it like that is agree if filling gaps with tour games from SH teams it'd be good
I'd back this. There could also be potential to expand the play-off's by adding a quarter-final stage.
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To be honest, fixture congestion is something which really bugs me. Players can't physically be expected to play 22 league games + 6 Heineken Cup + 10 internationals so something has to give if we want the best on the field every week. If a Pro 12 team makes it to every final, they can play 33 games. This season Ospreys are playing Leinster 4 times. There's also the possibility that they'd meet a 5th time in the Pro 12 knockouts. Had things happened differently, they may even have met a 6th time this season in the Heineken Cup knockouts. That's 6/33 games or 18% of fixtures potentially against the one opponent which is ridiculous! The maximum amount of times a teams should meet in a season is 3 in my opinion.
If we are to keep the current situation of 3 leagues and Europe in place I think a 14 game Pro 12 + playoffs with 4,6 or 8 teams is a good option to pursue (my preferred option is a Euroleague as stated previously). Leave the B&I Cup (which I'd get rid of if there was a Euroleague), Welsh Premiership and AIL for player development if there was a shortened Pro 12.
Hmmm. That is maybe better for the league, but I don't believe it better for the game as a whole.
If you are playing fewer games, meaning using (approx) the same 15+7 week in, week out - when and where do the youngsters get game time to develop?
Scotland have 2 professional teams, Wales 4, Ireland 4. England have 12 in the PRL and how many more in the Championship? France T14 + D2. NZ have the ITM teams, SA the Currie Cup. The Aussies are starting a new national league to combat this very issue. Having sufficient game-time available to take through a sufficient number of professional players for sustained high performance at both provincial and national level.
If there were increased credence and structure to the A fixtures (i.e. a Rabo Reserve league or something similar mirroring the senior league), this maybe would be manageable...
What about the Scots or Italians?
Personally, I think one option would be the IRFU looking to form a 12 team semi-professional league out of the AIL, an IrishTM cup if you will. The AIL standard is too far off Rabo to be really useful as a development tool.
But, where does that leave the Scots and Italians when they might not have the strength in numbers to do similar? More joined up thinking is needed - otherwise they'll end up drifting when everyone else moves ahead.
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Young players get plugged in when they're ready. I believe a young player has a better opportunity to succeed when he's surrounded by experienced players. For example (and sorry for Irishing the thread!) Martin Moore has benefited a hell of a lot more from playing with the full squad in the Heineken Cup than away to Treviso on the same day that Ireland played New Zealand.
I'd like to see a more meaningful A competition than the B&I Cup. What we have at the minute are disjointed A provincial teams who change from round to round, English championship teams who don't care and Welsh and Scottish semi pro sides. I'd bore people to tears if I did a thread on how I'd attempt to change the structure of European rugby so will try not go into too much detail. A proper A structure from August to December (interpros, games against other Pro 12 and Premiership A teams) with the AIL taking over from January to May could work.
In their equivalent domestic leagues which already exist.
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But Snoop for like of Italians and Scots it won't be as beneficial as standard isn't as good.
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There are only two ways to achieve the goal of cutting down the number of games played by players
1. a shorter season with less league games.
2. larger squads with more rotation
Mathematically, there are no other options.
For starters, the six nations should get together and completely re-arrange the calendar. Start with the National Leagues (The Aviva Premiership, the RFU Championship, Top14, Pro12, Pro D2 etc) then follow that with the Six Nations Championship on five consecutive weekends, then the European Championships on nine consecutive weekends. The majority of National Leagues players will get some rest & recovery time during the playoff phases, some will be able to get additional rest during the Six Nations. Those that don't will either have to be rested in the first few weeks of the ERC, or a three week gap has to be placed between the 6N and the ERC.
Next, the number of games played in the National Leagues needs to be cut dramatically, from the current 22/26 + playoffs to around 15/16 plus playoffs. This will mean a ditching of the tradition of playing home and away ties in the National Leagues. Have each team play each other once, and rotate the home/away fixtures on a bi-seasonal basis. An expansion of the leagues to 16 teams may be necessary, or some sort of two-tier pool system may have to be used.
The only downfall is money. How do you get the same amount of money for less actual games. One way it to hike ticket prices. You sell the idea on the basis that less is actually more. Less games will directly translate to less injuries for players, to more participation of the best players and therefore, to higher quality matches and a better quality product. I don't know about the forum guys here, but I'd sooner pay $150 to watch the All Blacks play South Africa once, than pay $50 per game to watch them play Italy three times. Also, less games will mean fans will have less opportunities to go to games. Currently, the season drags on seemingly forever, so fans can go any old time they like for 75% of the year. Cut down the opportunities and more people will take what opportunities there are. Its one of the reasons why NFL plays to packed stadiums of 60,000 - 90,000 plus; because its only on for less than half the year. After the Superbowl in February, there is a "football drought" until the following August when pre-season starts.
I think you'd need that 3 week gap.
The English/French 6N squads will be spread out amongst many teams in the HEC/ACC. The Irish (for example) would be condensed into 3 provinces. The Welsh regions would be affected to a lesser degree with the numbers in France, but Glasgow/Treviso would be wiped out too.
