The Welsh Regions Joining the Premiership?

[psychic duck]

Well what does it say so that they have done absolutely nothing in Europe and only thing they really are remembered for in business end of Europe for is a hammering by Munster and loosing a penalty shoot out.
Also Irish provinces loose their players lots more to international scene when there's training camps as well as games so that's no excuse

And my point there how long will it be attractive if they are like the Italian teams of the AP

It means they have underachieved as well as had bad luck. Remember the Irish got their provinces up and running much earlier than the regions in 2003, the first 3 years of regional rugby was more development. From 2006/07 to 2010/11 were the seasons where they were competitive, so about 5 seasons, it's a hard tournament to win and requires a lot to go your way. Both Munster and Leinster had numerous failures and were dubbed "nearlymen" before they won it, if the regions hadn't had their squads dismantled then they would still be competitive and in the hunt. Better teams than a peak Ospreys or peak Blues have not seen the HEC come their way, Stade Francais and Biarritz in their prime and Clermont now for example, Leicester haven't won for 11 years now. It's a very tough tournament to win with plenty good sides.

They won't be the Italians of the AP. Wales produces a lot more talent and there are financial advantages of joining that will aid the rebuilding process.

 

[munstermuffin]

It means they have underachieved as well as had bad luck. Remember the Irish got their provinces up and running much earlier than the regions in 2003, the first 3 years of regional rugby was more development. From 2006/07 to 2010/11 were the seasons where they were competitive, so about 5 seasons, it's a hard tournament to win and requires a lot to go your way. Both Munster and Leinster had numerous failures and were dubbed "nearlymen" before they won it, if the regions hadn't had their squads dismantled then they would still be competitive and in the hunt. Better teams than a peak Ospreys or peak Blues have not seen the HEC come their way, Stade Francais and Biarritz in their prime and Clermont now for example, Leicester haven't won for 11 years now. It's a very tough tournament to win with plenty good sides.

They won't be the Italians of the AP. Wales produces a lot more talent and there are financial advantages of joining that will aid the rebuilding process.

But them teams were getting to the business end of the HEC. I agree it hard and I'm not slamming Welsh for not winning but more not ever looking like they're the real deal.
I accept what your saying about being behind in development as I remember Scarlets before that being consistent but if they breakaway and start over it'll set them back and that mixed with the tougher AP will hurt regions even more.

And if WRU start new regions the talent Wales produce possibly won't come and all this could lead to regions being slow rebuilding with lack of talent in some areas which could mean a possibility of becoming like Italian teams

 

[psychic duck]

But them teams were getting to the business end of the HEC. I agree it hard and I'm not slamming Welsh for not winning but more not ever looking like they're the real deal.
I accept what your saying about being behind in development as I remember Scarlets before that being consistent but if they breakaway and start over it'll set them back and that mixed with the tougher AP will hurt regions even more.

And if WRU start new regions the talent Wales produce possibly won't come and all this could lead to regions being slow rebuilding with lack of talent in some areas which could mean a possibility of becoming like Italian teams

The Ospreys reached 3 knockout stages in a row and Cardiff Blues reached them 3 times in 5 years and won the Amlin. The former had a blatant deliberate knock on not given to beat Biarritz in 2010 where they were looking very promising for a route to the final and the latter lost a penalty shootout. The Ospreys also got some **** luck in the pool draws as well continuously. Those are 50/50 things that you need to get to win the tournament. Munster and Leinster came the wrong end of luck (ROG's choke and the Hand of Back in the finals for instance) plenty before they eventually won it as well with the close things like Fofana's bicep going their way.

The Welsh regions produce the talent. If the WRU were to set up new regions (which they would embarrass themselves if they did) then they would have to recruit from the main 4 to have any sort of team. That new regions thing was just an empty threat in my opinion, there's no chance that would work.

 

[McTallshort]

The hand of Back wasnt bad luck, it was an excellent piece of gamesmanship that gave the game its right and proper conclusion.

 

[munstermuffin]

Yes but like in the times they've reached the knockouts even like it was rare they looked like winning a tournament like for example - Munster this year are through but won't win HEC just were lucky with pool. If they do produce like last year and go further they will truly be seen as team to be respected but now we are just "1 of rest".
I agree luck plays a part but still even as an Ospreys fan you'd agree the Ospreys team from 4 years or so ago massively massively underachieved.

 

[munstermuffin]

The hand of Back wasnt bad luck, it was an excellent piece of gamesmanship they gave the game its right and proper conclusion.

Nobody in Munster holds grudge as we've all said if you get away with it in a final then fair play. We'd possibly done same but Ducks general view is correct you do need spot of luck

 

[McTallshort]

Nobody in Munster holds grudge as we've all said if you get away with it in a final then fair play. We'd possibly done same but Ducks general view is correct you do need spot of luck

was just kidding about mate....

 

[dullonien]

The Welsh regions produce the talent. If the WRU were to set up new regions (which they would embarrass themselves if they did) then they would have to recruit from the main 4 to have any sort of team. That new regions thing was just an empty threat in my opinion, there's no chance that would work.

The academies and lower leagues produce the talent, both of which I believe are financed by the WRU, and in the case of the academies are also mostly staffed by the WRU. I do wonder who would have access to those players if a split occurred, I'd suspect the WRU would, not the regions.

This isn't a post about the merits of the WRU's threats of setting up new regions before you say anything, just giving my input into who I think would control the flow of young talent if it did occur. As you say though, I also think it's just empty threats.

 

[psychic duck]

The academies and lower leagues produce the talent, both of which I believe are financed by the WRU, and in the case of the academies are also mostly staffed by the WRU. I do wonder who would have access to those players if a split occurred, I'd suspect the WRU would, not the regions.

This isn't a post about the merits of the WRU's threats of setting up new regions before you say anything, just giving my input into who I think would control the flow of young talent if it did occur. As you say though, I also think it's just empty threats.

The academies are run by the regions and funded by the regions with the WRU. Don't know the details 100%, but I'm pretty convinced.

 

[dullonien]

The academies are run by the regions and funded by the regions with the WRU. Don't know the details 100%, but I'm pretty convinced.

I thought I read recently that the WRU fund the academies to the tune of approx 600k, and they supply the majority of the staff. I can't remember where I read that though. Of course I'm sure the regions do their part in running them, but It still doesn't convince me that the regions would be the ones in control of them if a split occurred.

 

[Peat]

Hahahaha ......... Oh you were being serious

Completely serious because those are the facts. Are you accusing me of being a liar? Or stupid? If you are not doing these things, accept this is the truth.

People go on about how the Irish provinces don't take the Pro12 seriously. I do not and cannot agree with that. People who do not point to team sheets. My answer is "And?"

Rotation is a big part of sport. Those who can, do. The Irish teams quite clearly can. Ulster have the weakest squad in the Irish big 3 (well, arguably at least) and still have 6 internationals outside of the first 23. It doesn't mean that you're not taking the competition seriously. Throw in a Union enforced rotation policy and some truly awful and attritional injury rates in recent times and it becomes clear how the Irish players end up chalking up less Pro12 gametime than other competitors. It doesn't mean they don't take it seriously.

The issue here is that the Welsh perceive them as not taking it seriously as they don't see the big names rock up to the games in Wales. Sorry, but it's just not a good measuring stick.

 

[Rumpi]

Maybe that's because you spelt most of them incorrectly?

As munstermuffin said, we had 17 players with the international side that weekend, as well as Zane Kirchner. Leo Cullen, Richardt Strauss, Jordi Murphy and Shane Jennings were all out with injury. Despite that we still put out s number of Ireland and Ireland 'A' internationals. And we won the game.

Does any other league play a round of matches on international weekends?

Would man united play a premiership match without their internationals?

Says it all in a nutshell.

 

[Rumpi]

I don't understand why some irish posters here are so stubbornly defending the rabo, to my mind it is clearly treated as the secondary concern by the IRFU, with entire rounds of matches (the recent derby matches) being used to systematically to rest international players. Clubs in other leagues might rest players but it is the systematic way the IRFU do it that shows where their priorities lie and it's not with the rabo. That's not to say it is a worthless competition, anything but, but it couldn't be clearer that it is not the priority for the IRFU.

 

[smartcooky]

Completely serious because those are the facts. Are you accusing me of being a liar? Or stupid? If you are not doing these things, accept this is the truth.

People go on about how the Irish provinces don't take the Pro12 seriously. I do not and cannot agree with that. People who do not point to team sheets. My answer is "And?"

Rotation is a big part of sport. Those who can, do. The Irish teams quite clearly can. Ulster have the weakest squad in the Irish big 3 (well, arguably at least) and still have 6 internationals outside of the first 23. It doesn't mean that you're not taking the competition seriously. Throw in a Union enforced rotation policy and some truly awful and attritional injury rates in recent times and it becomes clear how the Irish players end up chalking up less Pro12 gametime than other competitors. It doesn't mean they don't take it seriously.

The issue here is that the Welsh perceive them as not taking it seriously as they don't see the big names rock up to the games in Wales. Sorry, but it's just not a good measuring stick.

The IRFU, the NZRU the ARU and SARU are probably the only organising bodies of domestic competitions in the world who fully understand the importance of looking after their players. They understand that you cannot flog your players week-in and week-out the way most of the Premiership and Top 14 clubs do, and expect them to stay injury free and in peak form and physical condition for the whole season. Its no coincidence that these two competitions have the highest injury rate and the longest average recovery time of any elite domestic rugby competition. For example, the Aviva Premiership has an average of 82 injuries per 1000 hours playing time, with an average recovery time of 27 days. That is a staggeringly high rate; nearly two injuries per match per team, that puts each of the injured players out for nearly a month. These figures have actually improved in from what they were in 2010/11. Anyone who would like to read more about this can download the England Professional Rugby Injury Audit from my dropbox...

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/98915197/TRF/rfu_injury audit 2013_web_final.ashx.pdf

Injury is not just a case of bad luck, it can be a case of bad management. Tired players are more easily injured. Injured players who are not allowed sufficient time for full recovery are more likely to get injured again, often aggravating the existing injury, leading to an even longer recovery time. The physical and mental demands of playing every match in a full professional rugby season are beyond most players; this is why coaches and managers with nous use squad rotation to manage injury, recovery and rest. Its a real balancing act, and adding to the complexity of it is the fact that there is no "one-size-fits-all" solution. The individual needs of players differ; some need more recovery time from the same injury than others, some need shorter, more frequent rest, some need longer, less frequent rest.

In NZ, the ITM Cup and Super Rugby team managers, coaches and medical staff and the NZRU work together to tailor management programs individually for each of the 150 or so fully professional players. Additionally, the NZRU think they have found a solution that will extend the playing careers of key players; the sabbatical, giving a player a complete break (six to eight months) from NZ rugby to do whatever they please. I cannot see this ever happening for any Aviva Premiership or Top 14 players.

 

[smartcooky]

Does any other league play a round of matches on international weekends?

Says it all in a nutshell.

Yes, Top 14!!!

Round 18 - weekend of February 8 (same weekend as Round Two of the Six Nations)

Bayonne v Brive
Bordeaux v Grenoble
Castres v Oyonnax
Clermont v Paris
USAP v Racing
Toulon v Biarritz
Toulouse v Montpellier

Round 20 - weekend of February 22 (same weekend as Round Three of the Six Nations)

Bayonne v Toulon
Bordeaux v Racing
Castres v Toulouse
Clermont v Montpellier
Grenoble v Biarritz
Paris v Oyonnax
USAP v Brive

and, Aviva Premiership

Round 13 - weekend of February 8 (same weekend as Round Two of the Six Nations)

Worcester Warriors v Leicester Tigers
Sale Sharks v Gloucester
Bath v Newcastle Falcons
Saracens v London Irish
Exeter Chiefs v Northampton Saints
Harlequins v Wasps

Round 15 - weekend of February 22 (same weekend as Round wo of the Six Nations)

Bath v Wasps
Gloucester v Harlequins
Worcester Warriors v Sale Sharks
London Irish v Leicester Tigers
Newcastle Falcons v Northampton Saints
Saracens v Exeter Chiefs


Says it all in a nutshell!!

Would man united play a premiership match without their internationals?

Yes, they do!!

 

[Rumpi]

That's me back in my box! Lol

 

[Amiga500]

First match of last season, not in an international period. Ulster visited the Ospreys with this ... J Payne; C Gilroy, D Cave, L Marshall, M Allen; N O'Connor, M Heaney; C Black, R Herring, D Fitzpatrick, J Muller (capt), L Stevenson, M McComish, S Doyle, N Williams. Leaving Court, Afoa, Ferris, Jackson and Trimble on the bench is hardly a sign of a team desperate to win in the first game of the season. There are also those glorified 2nd XV's for 7 rounds of the season during internationals.

Well, if that Ulster team was so callow, what stopped your full strength mighty Ospreys from beating them? (Never mind humiliating them in a mis-match that would have turned supporters away.)

 

[Amiga500]

Just skimmed through the thread quickly there - what is it you're actually complaining about in the squad rotation? The only reason Leinster have such good strength in depth is because they rotate the squad - if they're good enough to send out a second string XV against another team AND get 4 or 5 points, why not?

This.


If the rotation/resting/disregarding the competition were resulting in one-sided games, then those saying the league is uncompetitive would have a point.


But the games are competitive. So does the like of Duck think more people would pile into Parc y Scarlets to see them humped silly by a "full strength" Leinster (for instance)? Or would you get more in the gates to watch a match the home team have a chance of winning?

 

[munstermuffin]

People realize that IRFU policy is based on medical science

 

[psychic duck]

Well, if that Ulster team was so callow, what stopped your full strength mighty Ospreys from beating them? (Never mind humiliating them in a mis-match that would have turned supporters away.)

Because they weren't at full strength either and aren't especially good anyway. Duh.

This.


If the rotation/resting/disregarding the competition were resulting in one-sided games, then those saying the league is uncompetitive would have a point.


But the games are competitive. So does the like of Duck think more people would pile into Parc y Scarlets to see them humped silly by a "full strength" Leinster (for instance)? Or would you get more in the gates to watch a match the home team have a chance of winning?

More people did turn up to watch when it was the proper full strength Leinster in the Heineken Cup than the diluted Rabo version. Both from the Scarlets and the Ospreys. Neither were "humped silly" at home either by the way.