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Theft and general buggery

Let me put the argument this way.

In British Basketball, we have a pro league. The UK doesn't produce any top NBA stars from that league, but it is used by americans primarily for their first job after college to get into the career ladder. Some even stay and get residency and then go to the big leagues in Spain etc where they can earn some nice moolah and then stpe up to NBA.

None of the top Brits will come to play in your league because it's a below par league and the money isn't competitive. We have just entered a GB team after a very long absence of a national, because we disbanded it. In it's first season, it is now qualifed for the Euro Championships over several much higher ranked traditional teams. We have an awesome team, but the ones who play at home are the newbies who want to play for GB for this the Euros. After that, they'll go back to the bigger leagues.

My point and comparison is that the situation in Australia, NZ and South Africa is that although the competitions are good, they don't give that much in wages or development of a career, so it is very tempting for these players to come to the NH and earn more money and almost walk into any team they chose. Not many players come here to sample a new culture only.

Life is about money, not loyalty and this is ever increasing in professional sport. It is very sad that some countries have a talent drain.. Samoa and Fiji are probly the worst hit in World Rugby.. but it is just logical financial migration. The fact is, none of these SH'ers will really ever stay here for years and years, because they are moving for the money and because the lack of decent competition at home.. like Australia doesn't even really have a regular professional league that can keep itself afloat. Some many move for a better life, like the islanders.. but life in NZ or Australia is fine.. and it's not that bad in South Africa like most of Africa.

If the money was there, the players would be staying at home in their Currie Cups and NPC's. Fact. Yes, you could argue we have the better comps in the NH. But really, who in the SH cares about Heineken Cup, Top14 or Premiership? Really, who cares?

No one is poaching. If someone gave you an offer that was double what you get now for doing the same job, would you decline.. if you knew you could go back and play for the national side 2 seasons later?
 
We know that's how it works. The point is, it saddens us from a fans perspective. That's all. ;)
 
Well, i suppose a silver lining would be that many of these players coming back from Europe in a years tiome or so might be better players. I mean, was John Smit a test prop before Clermont.. i don't know, but perhaps he learned that there.. and would have never been put in a position to develop as a prop elsewhere.
 
Yeah. Lots of guys come back and are pretty good. Stephan Terreblanche is a good example. Some come back really bad though... Like Braam van Straaten and Louis Koen.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jer1cho @ May 21 2009, 12:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
Yeah. Lots of guys come back and are pretty good. Stephan Terreblanche is a good example. Some come back really bad though... Like Braam van Straaten and Louis Koen.[/b]

I think in van Straaten's case it has more to do with going to Leeds and seeing his side ripped to shreds in front of a crowd of 3 men and a dog every home match.

Going to a Premiership no-hoper will have a very different impact compared to a side playing Heineken Cup rugby and challenging at the top level.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Teh Mite @ May 21 2009, 07:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KZNSharksFan @ May 21 2009, 02:00 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Teh Mite @ May 21 2009, 06:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Steve-o @ May 20 2009, 07:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Why? Why are NH clubs better at the team then SH provinces?[/b]

Because:

The Bigger NH packs would munch their SH counterparts.
leading to
The SH backs kicking the ball aimlessly straight down the middle, as is standard procedure for any Super 14 franchise under pressure.
leading to either
The NH backlines, which naturally the SH would underestimate as nobody down there ever takes time to watch a match before criticising, would run riot and carve up the pathetic defensive lines.
or
The NH kicks returning the ball accurately with interest, finding touch, gaining territory then allowing the bigger and stronger packs to rumble trough.

Easy.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>
Even if you don't like it International rugby is the highest form of the game, if you don't wanna join in the fun, your loss.[/b]

Matter of opinion, International rugby is pretty sucky ATM. Even the ABs have been particularly average since 2006.
[/b][/quote]

I hope you're taking the **** there, otherwise I do believe you just lost your last shred of credibility with that post. It truly was filled to the brim, with crap.
[/b][/quote]


The difference between you and I... I will watch rugby from all over the world and I can see the difference. You however described NH rugby as "Mud wrestling"- In other words you haven't got a f***ing clue about the game here.

Super 14 rugby, while "exciting" for all of those long runs and speculative passes, is watered down with sloppy defensive lines and piddly small-mobile forwards. Most SH Stars who head north literally can't hack it because of the physicality; Spencer looked average more often then not, James is **** so resorts to blatant thuggery as cover for his short comings, Heyman was turned inside-out by a 37 year old, Rico Gear has done precisely nothing, Same can be said of Latham, Harrison is ****. In fact, of all the recent arrivals, only Chris Jack and Luke McAlistar have converted well.

Then again, I've had enough of trying to get you to understand this. With your track record for preciousness comments on SH players, the ELVs, anti-English statements and now the delving into personnel comments on this thread when you've not got a decent counter debate, it's clear there's a massive chip on your shoulder and you'll forever continue to believe whatever the hell you want.

And one more point: I didn't see many of you Sharks fans complaining when Michelak was running the show.
[/b][/quote]

You still dont get it do you. Your arrogance, while immensely annoying, is quote amusing. You have actually managed to convince yourself that your provincial game is vastly superior, while still pretending that the pillaging of SH talent is justified.

Youve totally avoided the original argument and headed off on a tangent. But, for argument's sake: Spencer is over the hill, James is a pretty good player, but honestly, he's no Dan Carter and no one has ever rated him so. Heyman is very good and, writing him off is foolish (especially as no one can truly claim to know what actually goes on in the front row). Rico Gear is probably suffering from a severe lack of appropriate attacking ball due to his likely inept inside players. Latham has suffered sever injuries recently and is getting on too. What about Philip Burger, Claasens, Reihana etc etc.

This is a stupid argument. How can you possibly say that the GP and HC are superior to S14 when the best players from the aforementioned competitions are regulary whipped brutally by SH international teams?
 
Can you actually read that horse **** you're typing? You display more and more a clear lack of knowledge, nay, ignorance, of anything rugby-related that not on your own doorstep.

Your original point:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KZNSharksFan @ May 19 2009, 01:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
It has been brought to my attention that several valuable items have been stolen from the SH by you shifty ******** up north. Please, in future, refrain from pillaging our hard earned talent.

Sincerely
Signed: The other half of the world.

http://www.supersport.com/rugby/article.as...e&id=300441[/b]

So you started, maybe intentionally (although unlikely considering your track record) tongue in cheek, and have come out calling anyone who dares support a NH club a shifty ******* who has only interest in "mud wrestling in the rain", claim the Premiership has "Abramovich-like shenanigans", complain how everything is so "unfair", completely ignored the difference between independent clubs and union-owned franchises/provences, claim that there is no youth development here *bored of picking up inaccuracies over the first 2 pages in all*... All in all made yourself look like a complete *fillintheblanks*

You know f*** all about rugby away from your own shores, have no pride in a team (instead spouting off being cock proud about a city) then claim to have the first clue about rugby in a part of the world you'd probably spout off to your buddies "Oh, I'd never go there". You sound like a stroppy teenager making pissy excuses.

But believe whatever you want. You clearly haven't taken on board any of the information provided so far.

P.S. Whenever you lot challenged and find yourselves without an answer, the only response provided go harping on about internationals - Which aren't even part of the bloody discussion! So who's going off on tangents now?
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Teh Mite @ May 22 2009, 01:18 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
P.S. Whenever you lot challenged and find yourselves without an answer, the only response provided go harping on about internationals - Which aren't even part of the bloody discussion! So who's going off on tangents now?[/b]

Talking about internationals was just proving your load of crap wrong when you said NH rugby is way more superior to SH. You were the one who took it off a tangent saying how the SH forwards are puny and that we cant defend and we are all shite because you listed a couple of players who havn't been on form in the NH. The internationals post was just refuting that claim that SH rugby is bad.

So you are the one going off on tangents. 'Whichever hemisphere is better at rugby' has nothing to do with money lures, and you brought that topic to the table. So stop being hypocritial and once again, as KZNSharksFan said, stop going off on tangents.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tommowins @ May 22 2009, 12:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Teh Mite @ May 22 2009, 01:18 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
P.S. Whenever you lot challenged and find yourselves without an answer, the only response provided go harping on about internationals - Which aren't even part of the bloody discussion! So who's going off on tangents now?[/b]

Talking about internationals was just proving your load of crap wrong when you said NH rugby is way more superior to SH. You were the one who took it off a tangent saying how the SH forwards are puny and that we cant defend and we are all shite because you listed a couple of players who havn't been on form in the NH. The internationals post was just refuting that claim that SH rugby is bad.

So you are the one going off on tangents. 'Whichever hemisphere is better at rugby' has nothing to do with money lures, and you brought that topic to the table. So stop being hypocritial and once again, as KZNSharksFan said, stop going off on tangents.
[/b][/quote]
Why can't we agree that both NH and SH have their strengths and weaknesses. NH rugby is often viewed as slow and boring and forward oriented while SH hemisphere is know for its fast and flowing backlines.

I think as players in general get fitter and NH hemisphere pitches are drier the game is slowly going to merge into a better game where forwards and backs work in tandem. It will slowly become more even. The backlines of the NH will get better and the forwards of the SH will become better too. You can see as players get fitter and stronger they start to become better all round players. You could often see some of the back row playing in the centre or on the wing. Look at Tom Croft for instance he is as quick as most wingers and he plays flanker and lock.

So, all in all the game will become a better game because it is more balanced and not just focused on forwards or backs. It is a team game ONE team plays ONE team not a forwards team against a backs team.

Rugby is a game which should be enjoyed by everyone. So no the Southern Hemisphere is NOT better than the Northern Hemisphere and the Northern Hemisphere is NOT better than the Southern Hemisphere
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tommowins @ May 22 2009, 11:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Teh Mite @ May 22 2009, 01:18 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
P.S. Whenever you lot challenged and find yourselves without an answer, the only response provided go harping on about internationals - Which aren't even part of the bloody discussion! So who's going off on tangents now?[/b]

Talking about internationals was just proving your load of crap wrong when you said NH rugby is way more superior to SH. You were the one who took it off a tangent saying how the SH forwards are puny and that we cant defend and we are all shite because you listed a couple of players who havn't been on form in the NH. The internationals post was just refuting that claim that SH rugby is bad.
[/b][/quote]

Exactly.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>
You know f*** all about rugby away from your own shores, have no pride in a team (instead spouting off being cock proud about a city) then claim to have the first clue about rugby in a part of the world you'd probably spout off to your buddies "Oh, I'd never go there". You sound like a stroppy teenager making pissy excuses.[/b]

Can you read at all? Did you even stop to think over what I've written in these posts before stumbling in a mad dash to write a bigoted cynical response? Obviously not. Ranting like a little girl and ignoring half of what I've said makes you look like a "fillintheblanks" or whatever the hell that is. I now know, infact that you know "f*** all" about the game down here. Just try, if that's possible for you, to see this issue from the perspective of a fan down here. Maybe you'll understand.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>
You have no pride in a team (instead spouting off being cock proud about a city)[/b]

Just stop, you "haven't taken on board any of the information presented to you" and you're now making personal attacks based on nothing but your own misconceptions and other assorted bullshit.

Before this gets too personal (which it almost has), I think I should point out that a few clearly misinterpreted posts (by a few parties including TM and myself) earlier on have led to stupid arguments far removed from the original point, which I was putting forward partly tongue in cheek. The "mud wrestling" quote (also partly tongue in cheek) has been hopelessly overblown and you're now actually trying to use it as "evidence" of me knowing "f*** all about rugby away from my own shores." Some of the reasons I offered for the performance of some imports in England were uncalled for, but i wrote them after a very long day.

I don't think you ever fully understood where I stand on this, though I don't know how I could have explained it better.

I still stand by what I said earlier regarding the buying and selling of players willy-nilly and how it is turning the game into the farce that is modern football (I like football but not how its run). If you're comfortable with that, fine. Just know that the majority of people down here aren't.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>
tongue in cheek... I don't know how I could have explained it better.[/b]

Mate, I think people have totally misinterpreted you.

If you want to use sarcasm or irony please make it clear so we don't keep on misunderstanding you.

Im not taking a dig at you, im just saying that because we can't hear your voice or see your face that means sarcasms hard to put across...
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (alexmac @ May 23 2009, 01:59 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
tongue in cheek... I don't know how I could have explained it better.[/b]

Mate, I think people have totally misinterpreted you.

If you want to use sarcasm or irony please make it clear so we don't keep on misunderstanding you.

Im not taking a dig at you, im just saying that because we can't hear your voice or see your face that means sarcasms hard to put across...
[/b][/quote]

This is true. I myself misinterpreted Woldog's sarcasm in some other post.
 
I refuse to read any of the arguments on this because I consider SH players going to NH teams a good thing. It might be "robbing" you of some quality players but I think it benefits rugby as a whole. I think the "can't play for your country if you don't play in your country" is total horse.

I refuse to sully feeling this by arguing about it on the internet.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tommowins @ May 21 2009, 09:11 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
The NH is turning rugby into soccer. I love watching my team that is representing my state/reigon/provence/whatever. This is what happens in the southern hemisphere, apart from the odd player. In the northern hemisphere you have no idea which reigon is better than the other! Which reigon produces better players? Newcastle or London? Oh wait! that's right! we have no flippin idea because hardly any of the London team is actually from London, except for the bench and reserves...

As I said, the NH is turning rugby into soccer, a sport I deteste due to the fact that it has no loyalty whatsoever. No allegiance or pride to your heratige. Just whip off to whoever pays the most.

And that comment about the NH clubs being better than the SH clubs. Thats because your clubs are filled with 'import players' from other nations. And the only time that you aren't using our players? Internationals. Because the English team can only have English people, as you would know. The recent results speak for themselves for who's local players are better NH or SH:

Wales 9 - New Zealand 29 (22 November 2008)
England 6 - New Zealand 32 (29 November 2008)
England 14 - Australia 28 (Sat 15 Nov 2008)
France 13 - Australia 18 (Sat 22 Nov 2008)
England 6 - South Africa 42 (22 November 2008)
Scotland 10 - South Africa 14 (15 November 2008)

SH 6 - NH 0[/b]

Out of interest, what was the point in leaving out the one that the NH did actually win? Y'know, Wales 21 - 18 Australia?

I don't think SH players coming North is either right or wrong, because it's their personal choice, and if SH fans who're harping on about liking to see local, 'loayl' players in their teams want to blame somebody, then blame the players, they're the one's who accepted the offers. It's not as if the NH clubs held a gun to their head to make them sign! It's a free world boys, players should be allowed to play where they want.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thingimubob @ May 24 2009, 05:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tommowins @ May 21 2009, 09:11 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The NH is turning rugby into soccer. I love watching my team that is representing my state/reigon/provence/whatever. This is what happens in the southern hemisphere, apart from the odd player. In the northern hemisphere you have no idea which reigon is better than the other! Which reigon produces better players? Newcastle or London? Oh wait! that's right! we have no flippin idea because hardly any of the London team is actually from London, except for the bench and reserves...

As I said, the NH is turning rugby into soccer, a sport I deteste due to the fact that it has no loyalty whatsoever. No allegiance or pride to your heratige. Just whip off to whoever pays the most.

And that comment about the NH clubs being better than the SH clubs. Thats because your clubs are filled with 'import players' from other nations. And the only time that you aren't using our players? Internationals. Because the English team can only have English people, as you would know. The recent results speak for themselves for who's local players are better NH or SH:

Wales 9 - New Zealand 29 (22 November 2008)
England 6 - New Zealand 32 (29 November 2008)
England 14 - Australia 28 (Sat 15 Nov 2008)
France 13 - Australia 18 (Sat 22 Nov 2008)
England 6 - South Africa 42 (22 November 2008)
Scotland 10 - South Africa 14 (15 November 2008)

SH 6 - NH 0[/b]

Out of interest, what was the point in leaving out the one that the NH did actually win? Y'know, Wales 21 - 18 Australia?

I don't think SH players coming North is either right or wrong, because it's their personal choice, and if SH fans who're harping on about liking to see local, 'loayl' players in their teams want to blame somebody, then blame the players, they're the one's who accepted the offers. It's not as if the NH clubs held a gun to their head to make them sign! It's a free world boys, players should be allowed to play where they want.
[/b][/quote]

I did the two most recent games for RSA, NZ and AUS. If you want me to post three more games then It'll probably be 8-1 games. Still shows to Teh Mite that SH players don't get crushed by NH players.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tommowins @ May 24 2009, 12:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thingimubob @ May 24 2009, 05:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tommowins @ May 21 2009, 09:11 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The NH is turning rugby into soccer. I love watching my team that is representing my state/reigon/provence/whatever. This is what happens in the southern hemisphere, apart from the odd player. In the northern hemisphere you have no idea which reigon is better than the other! Which reigon produces better players? Newcastle or London? Oh wait! that's right! we have no flippin idea because hardly any of the London team is actually from London, except for the bench and reserves...

As I said, the NH is turning rugby into soccer, a sport I deteste due to the fact that it has no loyalty whatsoever. No allegiance or pride to your heratige. Just whip off to whoever pays the most.

And that comment about the NH clubs being better than the SH clubs. Thats because your clubs are filled with 'import players' from other nations. And the only time that you aren't using our players? Internationals. Because the English team can only have English people, as you would know. The recent results speak for themselves for who's local players are better NH or SH:

Wales 9 - New Zealand 29 (22 November 2008)
England 6 - New Zealand 32 (29 November 2008)
England 14 - Australia 28 (Sat 15 Nov 2008)
France 13 - Australia 18 (Sat 22 Nov 2008)
England 6 - South Africa 42 (22 November 2008)
Scotland 10 - South Africa 14 (15 November 2008)

SH 6 - NH 0[/b]

Out of interest, what was the point in leaving out the one that the NH did actually win? Y'know, Wales 21 - 18 Australia?

I don't think SH players coming North is either right or wrong, because it's their personal choice, and if SH fans who're harping on about liking to see local, 'loayl' players in their teams want to blame somebody, then blame the players, they're the one's who accepted the offers. It's not as if the NH clubs held a gun to their head to make them sign! It's a free world boys, players should be allowed to play where they want.
[/b][/quote]

I did the two most recent games for RSA, NZ and AUS. If you want me to post three more games then It'll probably be 8-1 games. Still shows to Teh Mite that SH players don't get crushed by NH players.
[/b][/quote]
HAHA!!!

Don't deny us our little bit of consolation :p
 
I think if this isn't regulated obviously it's going to become a problem. Aren't there rules in place that say how many players you can have in the 22 that aren't national to that country? Also, doesn't the IRU have some sort of stricter policy? I'm not sure.

I don't think rugby will lose it's loyalty factor, I think the worst the I've seen happen in rugby is players who just simply haven't fit into teams existing line-up and I don't see that changing.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tommowins @ May 24 2009, 12:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thingimubob @ May 24 2009, 05:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tommowins @ May 21 2009, 09:11 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The NH is turning rugby into soccer. I love watching my team that is representing my state/reigon/provence/whatever. This is what happens in the southern hemisphere, apart from the odd player. In the northern hemisphere you have no idea which reigon is better than the other! Which reigon produces better players? Newcastle or London? Oh wait! that's right! we have no flippin idea because hardly any of the London team is actually from London, except for the bench and reserves...

As I said, the NH is turning rugby into soccer, a sport I deteste due to the fact that it has no loyalty whatsoever. No allegiance or pride to your heratige. Just whip off to whoever pays the most.

And that comment about the NH clubs being better than the SH clubs. Thats because your clubs are filled with 'import players' from other nations. And the only time that you aren't using our players? Internationals. Because the English team can only have English people, as you would know. The recent results speak for themselves for who's local players are better NH or SH:

Wales 9 - New Zealand 29 (22 November 2008)
England 6 - New Zealand 32 (29 November 2008)
England 14 - Australia 28 (Sat 15 Nov 2008)
France 13 - Australia 18 (Sat 22 Nov 2008)
England 6 - South Africa 42 (22 November 2008)
Scotland 10 - South Africa 14 (15 November 2008)

SH 6 - NH 0[/b]

Out of interest, what was the point in leaving out the one that the NH did actually win? Y'know, Wales 21 - 18 Australia?

I don't think SH players coming North is either right or wrong, because it's their personal choice, and if SH fans who're harping on about liking to see local, 'loayl' players in their teams want to blame somebody, then blame the players, they're the one's who accepted the offers. It's not as if the NH clubs held a gun to their head to make them sign! It's a free world boys, players should be allowed to play where they want.
[/b][/quote]

I did the two most recent games for RSA, NZ and AUS. If you want me to post three more games then It'll probably be 8-1 games. Still shows to Teh Mite that SH players don't get crushed by NH players.
[/b][/quote]

yeahhh Wales v Australia was more recent than both France v Australia and England v Australia :p that was more my point, since it was one of the last Autumn International to be played.
 
Wow, a gramatically incorrect pun after ONLY four and a half months of thinking time.

Well done.
 

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