Top 14 Day 2

[Big Ewis]

back in France now gaston, no more Qatar ! Draguignan, Var. So for that reason, and that reason only, I'll have to pass on your very tempting offer

That's pushing it a bit, putting the results, I mean ppl can check that out anywhere on homepages in a click...but I guess we'll do that too, as I'm that selfless and generally generous and magnificent.

WEEKEND'S RESULTS:





Just watched Toulon La Rochelle. I know it's just La Rochelle but they really put up a fight, it's TLN that was absolutely fkng scintillating. It's super early, but I can't see anybody else winning the Top 14 this year. Castres and Clermont are both diminished, Paris and Racing just aren't good enough...Montypellier doesn't look exactly dominant right now to say the least and then maybe Toulouse look somewhat revived, but here comes FrenchFan rushing in to tell us they give away a ton of players to PSA the evil Bleu Papa Schtroumpf, and he's right. But I can see reinforced Toulouse have a nice season this year.

Anyways, you look at the result you think: Toulon at home smashing a Pro D2 team, normal. But you watch the masterclass they displayed, it's scary right now.

Note: I'm on a Giteau watch. I don't want to say things prematurely, but I'm on the verge of saying he's better than Wilkinson in the 10 jersey, with all due respect to the Wilko-hero. His playmaking notably, decision making, the stepping, tackle breaking leaving guys for dead, and the goal kicking really hasn't suffered, Giteau's very good there, not a big difference. Then there are the intangibles: leadership, experience, the admiration brought out of surrounding players, big game situations...we'll see.

 

[TheSaffycen]

Just watched Toulon La Rochelle. I know it's just La Rochelle but they really put up a fight, it's TLN that was absolutely fkng scintillating. It's super early, but I can't see anybody else winning the Top 14 this year. Castres and Clermont are both diminished, Paris and Racing just aren't good enough...Montypellier doesn't look exactly dominant right now to say the least and then maybe Toulouse look somewhat revived, but here comes FrenchFan rushing in to tell us they give away a ton of players to PSA the evil Bleu Papa Schtroumpf, and he's right. But I can see reinforced Toulouse have a nice season this year.

Anyways, you look at the result you think: Toulon at home smashing a Pro D2 team, normal. But you watch the masterclass they displayed, it's scary right now.

Note: I'm on a Giteau watch. I don't want to say things prematurely, but I'm on the verge of saying he's better than Wilkinson in the 10 jersey, with all due respect to the Wilko-hero. His playmaking notably, decision making, the stepping, tackle breaking leaving guys for dead, and the goal kicking really hasn't suffered, Giteau's very good there, not a big difference. Then there are the intangibles: leadership, experience, the admiration brought out of surrounding players, big game situations...we'll see.

He's an incredible player no doubt, but I think Wilkinson adds more than him in soem areas. Mainly defence and drop kicking. How many times did Toulon's attack start too breakdown in the opponents half so Wilkinson said '**** it, give it here' and slotted over another 3 points. But i'm agreed on the other points, he still has a turn off pace and he is much more dangerous with ball in hand. I think that with him and O'Connor outside they will be even more threat with the ball, it's just if the tactical kicking will suffer as a result.

 

[Big Ewis]

Giteau is actually an excellent tackler, very underrated. Ppl look at him being this "small" inside center and then Wilko's very well documented made-mainstream defensive ability and figure Toulon will miss that at the 10. They're roughly the same dimensions/weight btw., again with Wilko looking like the one with an advantage. Tankier physique, but Giteau's no sissy.
The Drop Goal thing for sure, "Mr. Drop Goal" Wilkinson. But then there's all the rest I mentioned there, and I do see Toulon being a more offensive team this year. Giteau throws those long skip passes with pinpoint accuracy, changes direction so well, makes those perfect chips ahead...it's Wallaby vs England fly-half play really. With Wilko you get the drops, with Giteau you get flashier attacking, but both are very sound in all those other aspects of the 10 position.

 

[FrenchFan]

Still very early in the season.

The weather will play a big part again this winter. It's a point pundits tend to gloss over. It will define a lot of the games. Try count will go down. Tactical kicking and ball up the jumper will become the order of the day. It's all part of the fun.

Clermont are very much in transition but their recruitment, unlike ours, is solid.
Castres are Castres. They will be there or thereabout
SF I am not sure. Their season will depend on the numbers of their players affected by the Agreement.
They look the less strong of the Parisians.
Racing look strong. They will be there.
Toulouse. You know my views. Don't want repeat.

Toulon didn't just beat La Rochelle. They dismantled them. They are going to take some beating at Mayol.

The big difference with last season so far is how much more ready most teams already are this early.

 

[TheSaffycen]

Giteau is actually an excellent tackler, very underrated. Ppl look at him being this "small" inside center and then Wilko's very well documented made-mainstream defensive ability and figure Toulon will miss that at the 10. They're roughly the same dimensions/weight btw., again with Wilko looking like the one with an advantage. Tankier physique, but Giteau's no sissy.
The Drop Goal thing for sure, "Mr. Drop Goal" Wilkinson. But then there's all the rest I mentioned there, and I do see Toulon being a more offensive team this year. Giteau throws those long skip passes with pinpoint accuracy, changes direction so well, makes those perfect chips ahead...it's Wallaby vs England fly-half play really. With Wilko you get the drops, with Giteau you get flashier attacking, but both are very sound in all those other aspects of the 10 position.

Giteau isn't a weak defender by any means but Wilko was like a flanker. I think of it like this teams dont target Giteau by any means but they don't mind sending a player down his channel as he isn't going to stop them dead, where as Wilko will stop you behind the line and smash you just as hard, you don't want to go down his channel. I agree that the difference is the English v Oz menality around a fly half. Like Farrell v Cooper one is designed to make 15 man rugby with flowing passes and the other is perfectly made for the 10 man game, though Wilkinson was brilliant all round when he was younger.
With how Toulon will play i think it might be harder, if you watch last year the difference between Toulon and Saracens was the defence, we couldn't get past anyone. The first try was great link up between Wilko and Giteau and the second was a really poor missed tackle leading to Smith going over. Toulons defence is scary really it was by far and away the best thing about them, it doesn't matter how good your attack is when you miss 15 tackles a game. Though i may be wrong and Toulon put like 50+ on everyone.

 

[Big Ewis]

The big difference with last season so far is how much more ready most teams already are this early.

yes, a very good point. Top 14 is just getting more and more intense and demanding. It takes a little bit of time for its participants to notice that, like, "what time it is". Some already started sprinting, while others are just only understanding "oh, so it's like that ?!". You look at Bayonne being corrected at home by Toulon, and then everybody (incl. myself) counts them out and they wreck Oyonnax, an Oyonnax that had almost come out with a win in Ernest-Wallon. Watched an interview from their no.8 Ollivon and he said how their scrum took a mental hit when they were so overwhelmed by Toulon's, and they ripost the very next week like this, you see the sort of pride and stakes for those Top 14 sides. Even BAYONNE.
You look at Rémy Lamerat's face when they lost at home to Paris in Day 1 during the post-match intview, he looked like he was going to cry, even swore on national TV, shows you how he was feeling. Every match has its significant importance, and it's tightening up throughout the country, generally. It didn't seem that intense when I picked up Top 14 some years ago.
And here's the interesting part: I think Toulon have a large share of credit/responsibility in that regard, in how they've single-handedly set the bar and standards so high, because all it takes is for just *one team* to dominate, and all the rest must follow to keep up. If one team is too good, they'll win, and that's the goal for everyone, Toulouse and MP and Castres etc...don't want to play for seconds !

Teams are tightening up every aspect too, because Toulon isn't just superstars on paper. They're good Rugby players with heart, a certain mindset: Boudjellal wants to see the ppl he hires face to face before he picks them up. He wants ppl who will really play for him, with pride wearing Varois rouge-et-noir. And it's true, you look at the fruit produced from that tree, the results, the realities: haven't seen a Toulonnais look like some random mercenary just getting paychecks in and smiling for the camera, they all play with real intent and put their bodies on the line. As opposed to Racing for e.g., at least the first half of last year. Boudjellal I don't think would've hired Sexton with his home-sickness and distance towards his French club.

You look at even a flashy bish superstar like J.O'Connor and he's played his balls (vagina ?) off yesterday in the limited time he got. Toulon produces, reinvents players. They'll take a total nobody like Burden and make him a top hooker, a Wilko and make him the heart of the team where he's still there even after retirement he got so involved, they'll recycle a Drew Mitchell who used to just run fast for the Wallabies and utilize him as a fullback with excellent cover who still beats defenders off the steps, Armitage and allow him to become the ERC player of the year. Then the older SANZAR guys like Rossouw, Juan Smith, Bakkies, Carl Hayman, Giteau - who may've left their beloved national sides but still play for something enormous and at (sometimes) test level. Menini who came out of darkness from Biarritz, got selected for les Bleus.

And with all this, they're producing locally the Orioli, Fresia, Bruni, Chiocci and fielding French talents Mermoz, Basta, Tilous-Bordes, Menini, Suta, Michalak and now Guirado and Romain Taofi.

I used to hate them because I thought they were bling bling, but sometimes bling bling also has much more to it and it takes a little while fathoming this.

 

[Tony Manx]

NOw on the correct thread with apologies to my illustrious betters!!

 

[Big Ewis]

eh Tony, there's a Pro D2 thread ain't there ?! yeah I saw Perpignan and Biarro won their first matches in the Pro D2. Only by a point for the B.O. at home...
So Tony, were you entertained, or did you really feel a big drop in level from Top 14 Rugby ?

 

[Tony Manx]

2nd error!!!

 

[Tony Manx]

Two comments on Toulon v La R..................hated David Smith's play acting to get the yellow for the La R guy who barely touched him and good to see Barraque getting a try and making the first!!

If the French are still "Barraquing" ( see what I did there) Delon Armitage for his attitude then they should do the same to the distasteful Smith for his football hooliganism.

Menini who came out of darkness from Biarritz, got selected for les Bleus..

Yet to be convinced...........!

Teddy Thomas is going to be a star.......watch what he does for Racing...if his ego does not get in the way!! Howver, I think UBB will be the surprise of the season.....watch them!

Bayonne did well when you consider Chisholm (who calls the line outs) was a doubt until a few hours before the game with a bruised bone on his knee and Rocacocco (sp?) with bruised ribs...I still think that Oyonnax might end above the AB's come relegation time!!

For me it is between Lyon, Oyonnax, Brive and Bayonne for the drop.....

 

[Big Ewis]

Two comments on Toulon v La R..................hated David Smith's play acting to get the yellow for the La R guy who barely touched him and good to see Barraque getting a try and making the first!!

If the French are still "Barraquing" ( see what I did there) Delon Armitage for his attitude then they should do the same to the distasteful Smith for his football hooliganism.

yeah David Smith's thing shouldn't happen, but I don't really comment on that stuff anymore. Rougerie did something similar the other day, not as bad though. As the stakes rise, so do the players and coach start looking for other ways to win. Machiavelli's sacred rule, Tony.
And Barraque, besides that sneaky try, looked pretty darn good that match. Nice stepping, good running legs, he looks like a fine prospect in the making there after a soulless season at Toulouse.

Hey FF, recognize anybody on there ?

 

[Tony Manx]

And Barraque, besides that sneaky try, looked pretty darn good that match. Nice stepping, good running legs, he looks like a fine prospect in the making there after a soulless season at Toulouse.

Had high hopes for him after the Under 20 championship win when he was 13 to Doussain at 10 but believe that he has a character flaw plus was ruined by Biarritz so when he went to Toulouse was delighted as thought Noves would bring his talent out and sort him out! He did not!

Maybe he has found his niche now and will improve with his age and become what he has the talent to do!!

Added to my post incidentally...........enjoy your stay in Draguignan....had marvellous holiday in Cabris and visited the area many times!!

 

[Gavin]

How long did O'Connor play and in what position? I think he will do great, especially as he will hopefully play outside Giteau who is perhaps one of the top 3 number 10s in the world ATM

 

[Big Ewis]

thanks Tony ! It's sort of my second "home" here.
Yeah Barraque is probably more of a center than a flyhalf, they played him at 10 in Toulouse. Biarritz too. Still very young (23yo) and just needs to settle and then his talent can grow consistently. Looks good at 13 right now for La Rochelle.

How long did O'Connor play and in what position? I think he will do great, especially as he will hopefully play outside Giteau who is perhaps one of the top 3 number 10s in the world ATM

You can check online if you want the exact minutes, but he played very little, like 10-12 minutes. Very active, very solid steps, looked very elusive and dangerous, and even scored his try at the very end of the match.
Yes Giteau is quite underrated, esp. at FH. It doesn't seem Toulon is even actually going to miss Sir Wilko.

 

[gaston le gaff]

For me it is between Lyon, Oyonnax, Brive and Bayonne for the drop... quote from Tony!!!

I will disagree only slightly and replace Bayonne with La Rochelle who i think are going to struggle this season would like them to stay up for the annual plateau de Fruits de Mer at Andre's but it may not happen, Bayonne i think will be strong at home and may have problems on the road, but totally agree about Smith it is not the first time that he has played the footie girlie and someone should step on his toes with thoughtful pain!!!!!!

 

[Big Ewis]

For me it is between Lyon, Oyonnax, Brive and Bayonne for the drop... quote from Tony!!!

I will disagree only slightly and replace Bayonne with La Rochelle who i think are going to struggle this season would like them to stay up for the annual plateau de Fruits de Mer at Andre's but it may not happen, Bayonne i think will be strong at home and may have problems on the road, but totally agree about Smith it is not the first time that he has played the footie girlie and someone should step on his toes with thoughtful pain!!!!!!

"thoughtful pain", what a sadist you are gaston !!! It's an oxymoron...nay, a "gastonmoron" (with all due respect...).

Very unfortunately, couldn't find Bayonne vs Oyonnax anywhere, 5 tries and 38 points they put past the Urios Oyomen. Ollivon looking really, really good, what a talent in the making. Check out the highlights, some very nice Rugby in there:

http://www.canalplus.fr/c-sport/c-r...id3433-c-rugby-top-14-videos.html?vid=1120488

 

[Big Ewis]

XV of the weekend (in pictures):

http://www.rugbyrama.fr/rugby/notre-xv-de-la-2e-journee-de-top-14_dia3121/slideshow.shtml

I agree on basically all picks.

Personal notables:
- Scott Spedding (Bayonne, South Africa): fantastic for Bayonne, two tries, good power for a FB (almost 100kg) and good stepping/pace.
- Teddy Thomas (Racing, France): I discovered fully this very young rookie winger. What talent, this guy is going to be something special I think. Just 20 years old.
- Jandré Marais (Bordeaux, South Africa): roughly 2m, 120kg. 25yo. What a second rower. Huge at the breakdown and going forward ball in hand. Yet another Saffer forward who sticks out of the lot.

And btw, David Smith's stats were off the charts last weekend:


Legend:

 

[Tony Manx]

XV of the weekend (in pictures):

http://www.rugbyrama.fr/rugby/notre-xv-de-la-2e-journee-de-top-14_dia3121/slideshow.shtml

I agree on basically all picks.

Personal notables:
- Scott Spedding (Bayonne, South Africa): fantastic for Bayonne, two tries, good power for a FB (almost 100kg) and good stepping/pace.
- Teddy Thomas (Racing, France): I discovered fully this very young rookie winger. What talent, this guy is going to be something special I think. Just 20 years old.
- Jandré Marais (Bordeaux, South Africa): roughly 2m, 120kg. 25yo. What a second rower. Huge at the breakdown and going forward ball in hand. Yet another Saffer forward who sticks out of the lot.

And btw, David Smith's stats were off the charts last weekend:
View attachment 3183

Legend:
View attachment 3184

When in the last few years they had players like Barraque, Thomas, Erik Lund, Lauret, Lakafia, Lesgourges, Couet-Lannes to aid the talented three....one wonders why BO struggled for so long before curling up their toes!!

No doubting Smith's talents....he is just a footie girl though as Gaston says!!

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

XV of the weekend (in pictures):

http://www.rugbyrama.fr/rugby/notre-xv-de-la-2e-journee-de-top-14_dia3121/slideshow.shtml

I agree on basically all picks.

Personal notables:
- Scott Spedding (Bayonne, South Africa): fantastic for Bayonne, two tries, good power for a FB (almost 100kg) and good stepping/pace.
- Teddy Thomas (Racing, France): I discovered fully this very young rookie winger. What talent, this guy is going to be something special I think. Just 20 years old.
- Jandré Marais (Bordeaux, South Africa): roughly 2m, 120kg. 25yo. What a second rower. Huge at the breakdown and going forward ball in hand. Yet another Saffer forward who sticks out of the lot.

And btw, David Smith's stats were off the charts last weekend:
View attachment 3183

Legend:
View attachment 3184

Yeah, you'll hear the Sharks fans complaining about Jandre Marais leaving (one of three very talented broters from Sharks country with 2 of them in France - look out for brother Peet). They were all claiming they'll have the best lock combo in SA soon with Marais and PSdT but the one left and the other is an injury magnet (not helped by him having no regard for anyone's safety least of all his own). It's a worry in SA that the guys leaving are getting younger and younger; leaving before they've realy made their name here first I mean. But I don't blame them; I'm seriously considering bailing myself purely because of the state of education over here and me having a young family.

I take it you don't follow the IRB's u20 world champioships? Teddy Thomas for me was one of the stand out individuals from the 2013 tournament; played at 15 for France u20 and was pretty devastating ball in hand. I got very excited seeing him and Dulin signing up for us for 2014.

 

[TheSaffycen]

Teddy Thomas reminds me of Yarde, really powerful with ball. The sort of winger who can come off his wing and carry into traffic quite comfortably. I remember him playing for Biarritz against some English team I think and he scored a try from a cross field kick.