Toulon - Cian Healy?

[profitius]

TIGHTHEAD IN DANGER IN FRANCE !
The one department, as I keep reiterating, where we are CLEARLY in deficit though, and this is bad; in this scope of foreigners hindering our local talent, is specifically the Tighthead Prop position. All Pacific Islander (huge, cannon fodder) or Georgians (already trained often, excellent adequate physiology, cheap). We now have to count on a young kiwi Samoan from the Pacific (Uini Atonio) to conduct our scrum on the right. I appreciate him a lot personally, but where are our rugged, ballsy Southwestern French front row destroyers ? Califano, Milloud, Servat, Mas, Lecouls, Marconnet, Poux, Crenca...where are those scrummaging legends ????
Our closest incarnation of that is currently Clermont's Clément Ric, who's alright but not nearly dominant.

I understand the rules have changed and you wouldn't see this sort of procession nowadays, but just for the good old times:



(front rows in the description)

I'm not surprised French tightheads are becoming less common. Thats a position that takes the longest to develop players for. Since French clubs only think short term they're just going to sign someone rather than wait and see how a young tighthead turns out.

Ireland are going the opposite way. Plenty of tightheads emerging now after having to rely on John Hayes for a decade. But thats because the IRFU needed an attitude change to prop development.

 

[gaston le gaff]

1. Unlike Britain and Ireland (with the exception of Ulsters Ravenhill) most teams in France didn't have to pay to build the stadiums. They are owned by the local councils.
2. French rugby is club rugby and its run similar to soccer with a few exceptions.
3. Pure fantasy that big budgets buys success? I don't think so. Toulouse has always been the wealthiest club in Europe in the professional era and they've won 4 HECs. Big spending Toulon have won the last 2. Of course money isn't everything but it helps. Rugby is continuing to go more the way of soccer. The wealthy clubs now will get bigger sponsorship and the cycle will continue.
4. Its been well known that clubs have many tactics to get around the salary cap. Free housing and cars, family members employed, free food and other free things, image rights, post retirement job etc.
5. You might be right. Its been well documented (by you French posters too) that France and French teams are disadvantaged because they have to play more games. So the coach might be bad but he isn't being helped either. “In France, an international player can play 43 games/season but is only at national team’s disposal for 87 days. All Blacks internationals usually play a maximum of 26 games and spend 146 days together as a squad. English internationals play 26 games and spend 119 days with the national coach. In Oz, its 26 matches/145 days.” http://www.theroar.com.au/2013/11/02/philippe-saint-andre-on-whats-wrong-with-french-rugby/
6. From the previous link it said they receive €3m from local city council.
7. See point 4. They watch clubs but theres ways around the salary cap.
8 I said in future the league could damage itself if the big teams get too big and start hammering the smaller sides. Everything is grand now but things can change.


It looks like you're in denial. Anyway some French posters are getting a little too defensive. Pointing out that French rugby could damage the game around the world is just stating the obvious. The more they drive up wages the more other countries comes under pressure. People like Boudjellah is dangerous for the game because he has no sense of history and doesn't care about French rugby but only about HIS team.

Its very dangerous for France too to have the wages driven up. Smaller clubs might not ask themselves why bother developing players and investing in the future when they need more players now to get results. England is similar. Last weekend Saracens hammered Harlequins 39 - 0 or something like that. Saracens sign players from around the world while Harlequins have been trying to produce their own players. Harlequins might be rethinking that strategy to remain competitive at the top.

this is not even worth the paper it's printed on!!!!!!!!! but as far as humour goes you could possibly make a living out of it!!!!!!!!!! are you a World Champion at second guessing as that's what it looks like to me and probably many others.!!!!

 

[Big Ewis]

I'm not surprised French tightheads are becoming less common. Thats a position that takes the longest to develop players for. Since French clubs only think short term they're just going to sign someone rather than wait and see how a young tighthead turns out.

Ireland are going the opposite way. Plenty of tightheads emerging now after having to rely on John Hayes for a decade. But thats because the IRFU needed an attitude change to prop development.

that's right, profiterole. French clubs are no longer patient enough in regards to the development of the most important/longest-taking position in Rugby. They want quick fixes because they need instant results, or face relegation. That's generally a problem with our league: the need for instant productivity. We should've seen it coming, for the TH position...then again, academies could try harder to train the local French talent there at the same time, but, nope..

 

[profitius]

this is not even worth the paper it's printed on!!!!!!!!! but as far as humour goes you could possibly make a living out of it!!!!!!!!!! are you a World Champion at second guessing as that's what it looks like to me and probably many others.!!!!

Its not printed on paper... yet!

 

[gaston le gaff]

Its not printed on paper... yet!

Oh dear how silly of me!!!!!!!

 

[TheSaffycen]

Its very dangerous for France too to have the wages driven up. Smaller clubs might not ask themselves why bother developing players and investing in the future when they need more players now to get results. England is similar. Last weekend Saracens hammered Harlequins 39 - 0 or something like that. Saracens sign players from around the world while Harlequins have been trying to produce their own players. Harlequins might be rethinking that strategy to remain competitive at the top.

Bath just beat Tigers 45-0. Bath 12 English players in the starting squad, Tigers 9 English guys the rest players like Goneva, Salvi, Ghiraldini, Mulipola and Morris. Saracens had 12 English guys in the starting 15, 6 made by Saracens and another 3 players we made on the bench when we beat Quins.

I'm not surprised French tightheads are becoming less common. Thats a position that takes the longest to develop players for. Since French clubs only think short term they're just going to sign someone rather than wait and see how a young tighthead turns out.

Ireland are going the opposite way. Plenty of tightheads emerging now after having to rely on John Hayes for a decade. But thats because the IRFU needed an attitude change to prop development.

Yep the Irish are great for props, Tom Court, Rodney Ah You, Bent...... I don't think you can make the 'Irish think about the long term' when provinces constantly poach players too play for Ireland with the whole Irish qualified player scheme.

 

[Groundhog]

Bath just beat Tigers 45-0. Bath 12 English players in the starting squad, Tigers 9 English guys the rest players like Goneva, Salvi, Ghiraldini, Mulipola and Morris. Saracens had 12 English guys in the starting 15, 6 made by Saracens and another 3 players we made on the bench when we beat Quins.


Yep the Irish are great for props, Tom Court, Rodney Ah You, Bent...... I don't think you can make the 'Irish think about the long term' when provinces constantly poach players too play for Ireland with the whole Irish qualified player scheme.

Ah yes truly the pillars of our team. Try reading the bit where Profitius says we're now starting to produce props after over-reliance on an aging Hayes, hence why we 'poached' such **** players, bar Court, he was just a **** Tight Head, handy Loose Head. Allowing Bent to walk onto the team was one of the most despicable things the IRFU have allowed.
I don't understand how we don't think long term though. Munster for example had more Irish guys in their squad on Friday than any of the English teams you stated above with 21/23 players.There's NIQ caps for this reason. I don't like NIQ players playing for Ireland, but we won the 6 Nations with 23 Irish born players on the team.

 

[profitius]

Bath just beat Tigers 45-0. Bath 12 English players in the starting squad, Tigers 9 English guys the rest players like Goneva, Salvi, Ghiraldini, Mulipola and Morris. Saracens had 12 English guys in the starting 15, 6 made by Saracens and another 3 players we made on the bench when we beat Quins.


Yep the Irish are great for props, Tom Court, Rodney Ah You, Bent...... I don't think you can make the 'Irish think about the long term' when provinces constantly poach players too play for Ireland with the whole Irish qualified player scheme.

As Groundhog mentioned, I said we're starting to produce more props nowadays.

As for the English results, it looks like half the teams couldn't be arsed.

 

[TheSaffycen]

You do think long term but I didn't really agree with the England is similar too France thing. The point also about players is that teams like Saracens dont buy players from abroad, we had 18 English guys in the 23 and thats with Vunipola, Itoje, Streather etc not available or selected and we produce quite alot of them. Munster having 21 is great but the downside is that now BOD is gone you guys are looking at Payne, not Cave or Henshaw. Who knows when O'connell goes you might have a saffer in too replace him, it clearly is an objective of the IRFU to bring in guys to the national team.

 

[FrenchFan]

Its very dangerous for France too to have the wages driven up. Smaller clubs might not ask themselves why bother developing players and investing in the future when they need more players now to get results. England is similar. Last weekend Saracens hammered Harlequins 39 - 0 or something like that. Saracens sign players from around the world while Harlequins have been trying to produce their own players. Harlequins might be rethinking that strategy to remain competitive at the top.

you should be thankful to the Top 14

It softens up the French teams for the HCup and leaves yours with more than a fighting chance.

Say 3 Hail Marys for the Top 14 tonight.

 

[Peat]

Oh my, what a mess...

You do think long term but I didn't really agree with the England is similar too France thing. The point also about players is that teams like Saracens dont buy players from abroad, we had 18 English guys in the 23 and thats with Vunipola, Itoje, Streather etc not available or selected and we produce quite alot of them. Munster having 21 is great but the downside is that now BOD is gone you guys are looking at Payne, not Cave or Henshaw. Who knows when O'connell goes you might have a saffer in too replace him, it clearly is an objective of the IRFU to bring in guys to the national team.

Joe Schmidt very rarely mentions Payne in the debate for Ireland's next 13 unless a journalist mentions him first - he usually talks about Cave and Henshaw, sometimes Tommy Bowe, he's played McFadden there and so on. There's a groundswell of opinion among the pundits for pushing D'Arcy out one and bringing in one of the young 12s in his place. That's not out of any nationalistic fervour, it's a simple reflection of talent levels in the position. There's no guarantee Payne would be Ulster's first choice 13, nevermind Ireland's.

And we can say with a fair degree of safety that POC's replacement will be Henderson. If not, probably Dave Foley or Dan Tuohy. More on this later.

As Groundhog mentioned, I said we're starting to produce more props nowadays.

As for the English results, it looks like half the teams couldn't be arsed.

They're pretty much all looseheads though, lets be honest. Ireland has produced only three Tighthead prospects of any note recently, and that's being kind.

Yep the Irish are great for props, Tom Court, Rodney Ah You, Bent...... I don't think you can make the 'Irish think about the long term' when provinces constantly poach players too play for Ireland with the whole Irish qualified player scheme.

Ah now. What could be more long term than ensuring your clubs make foreign signings that will be there for almost their whole careers and eventually offer the national team options as well? Compare it to just grabbing any old foreigner to patch a gap and it's clearly far more of a long term thing.

Reality is, however, the Irish (particularly in Leinster and Ulster) have invested huge amounts into their academy schemes and then set out structures that ensure they will be used due to restrictions on recruiting players/the side effect of resting players. Yes, the system isn't perfect, and yes, there are still short term patches being placed out there, but the reality is its probably is the most long-term orientated machine in the Northern Hemisphere. Nowhere else has Union and Pro Sides agreed on a way of doing things that will provide the most consistent gateway for young players.

Its very dangerous for France too to have the wages driven up. Smaller clubs might not ask themselves why bother developing players and investing in the future when they need more players now to get results. England is similar. Last weekend Saracens hammered Harlequins 39 - 0 or something like that. Saracens sign players from around the world while Harlequins have been trying to produce their own players. Harlequins might be rethinking that strategy to remain competitive at the top.

Harlequins' future strategy will not be dictated by a one-off game against their bogey team.

Saracens have a fantastic academy which produced half their starting pack that day.

As global competition for players heats up, clubs will recognise the importance of producing top quality players due to their scarcity as a resource. Just like the majority of businesses really.

 

[Groundhog]

You do think long term but I didn't really agree with the England is similar too France thing. The point also about players is that teams like Saracens dont buy players from abroad, we had 18 English guys in the 23 and thats with Vunipola, Itoje, Streather etc not available or selected and we produce quite alot of them. Munster having 21 is great but the downside is that now BOD is gone you guys are looking at Payne, not Cave or Henshaw. Who knows when O'connell goes you might have a saffer in too replace him, it clearly is an objective of the IRFU to bring in guys to the national team.

No, I definately think that England is closer to the celtic nations than the French teams for sure. Their main basis is long term player development although teams like Sarries are constantly pushing to draw talent from minnow nations in particular, which is no harm at all I think. I wouldn't be too sure of Payne being a dead cert for the 13 shirt though. He'll have a fight on his hands with Henshaw. As I say though I really wouldn't want him in an Irish jersey regardless of talent, although it's not as embarassing as the Bent situation. The provinces will most continue to search for players in positions we are weak. The first order of business is plugging holes in the production line, so centres for Munster etc, to keep our provinces competitive, not necassarily the aim of making them Irish internationals. That's the key difference between a guy like Payne and a guy like Bent. Without doubt if these imports are the best in their positions they will be used should the time come, but those are the awful rules. The Granny rule is a whole other kettle of fish.
Also the day Munster can't produce Second Rows is the day Boudjellal can't get it up watching 30 athletic men tussle and decides to sell (I brought it full circle)

 

[TheSaffycen]

Well it would be hard for me to argue with Irelands policy after winning the 6 nations and being possibly the most promising european team at the moment. I think that Payne will be the 13 though, unless I am mistaken hasn't he been playing 13 for Ulster this year ? And will Ireland let him not be selected after the money spent on him and the fact that there has been quite alot of hype around him, well I think there is hype around the guy. I think the big difference between the French and the Celts and England is that we are all built around the national team, players will play in different positions and take on different roles if the national team require.

 

[Groundhog]

Well it would be hard for me to argue with Irelands policy after winning the 6 nations and being possibly the most promising european team at the moment. I think that Payne will be the 13 though, unless I am mistaken hasn't he been playing 13 for Ulster this year ? And will Ireland let him not be selected after the money spent on him and the fact that there has been quite alot of hype around him, well I think there is hype around the guy. I think the big difference between the French and the Celts and England is that we are all built around the national team, players will play in different positions and take on different roles if the national team require.

Yeah, in my opinion Payne the 15 is world class, Payne the 13 still has the jury out in my eyes. He's certainly not bad but he loses his platform for counterattack and the space that being a 15 brings. He'll definately be there or thereabouts on the Irsh team anyway, in one position or another. I'm very excited about Henshaw too though. I think if he played on a better team for the past few years, he'd be massively hyped.

 

[Peat]

Payne has played a bit at 13 for Ulster, but has so far only really been trusted with one important match there, which he made a hash of. How things lie this season is impossible to say as he and Cave have both been injured when the other has been fit. Les Kiss, current Ulster DoR and Ireland defence coach, is said to be a big Cave fan. There is very little hype about Payne as a 13 and most of that relies on his Super Rugby days and wishful thinking based upon his performances at 15.

In all honesty it is questionable as to whether he's even in Ulster's best 23 these days. Maybe says more about Ulster than Payne, but he is not the messiah at current reckoning.

 

[Draggs]

Payne has played a bit at 13 for Ulster, but has so far only really been trusted with one important match there, which he made a hash of. How things lie this season is impossible to say as he and Cave have both been injured when the other has been fit. Les Kiss, current Ulster DoR and Ireland defence coach, is said to be a big Cave fan. There is very little hype about Payne as a 13 and most of that relies on his Super Rugby days and wishful thinking based upon his performances at 15.

In all honesty it is questionable as to whether he's even in Ulster's best 23 these days. Maybe says more about Ulster than Payne, but he is not the messiah at current reckoning.

No chance he is getting the 15 shirt off of that sexy beast Ludik.

 

[Groundhog]

More like Gooey Poo Dick.
(I'm going to bed, just ban me, I feel bad).

 

[munstermuffin]

On that Payne is an average 13. World class 15. But as was said when POC goes Munster have Foley D. Ryan and few more coming through. Hookers and back row forwards and locks are Munsters best production line.
So don't think people realise how much the provinces all do produce their own guys. Leinster consistently have awesome academies due to excellent standard schools competition and set up. Ulster is similar. But more importantly younger guys get a lot more time to develop here and that eases pressure slightly.

 

[Darwin]

The interesting thing about Payne is that he only started to look like a truly quality player once he shifted to the 13 jersey. He spent a number of seasons at fullback/wing at NPC and Super Rugby level - though he played pretty well here he didn't look like and international quality player. This changed once he shifted to 13 for the Blues. He had an outstanding season in the midfield, and certainly looked to be on the ABs selectors radar before he left for "greener pastures".....

I assumed Payne's transformation was due to his switch to centre, but perhaps his improvement was independent of the positional shift. I do however believe Payne has the potential to be a quality international 13 based his performances in the Blues 13 jersey. He would probably need an extended run in the 13 jersey at club level before we would see him even get close to his potential in this position though...