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And i can agree in part, but as i said they have been as radicalised and scared into having to vote for theirninterests with the fear of the collapse of the USA if Dems win.

It was explained to me previously like a prison yard, you might not go in as a white supremecist, but your going to end up joining because the alternative is being alienated vulnerable and abused.

I think US politics has created that mindset, most Dems arent voting for Pelosi, Schumer, and the rest of the corrupt, theyre voting Dem out of fear of Trump, and a lot of Reps arent voting for Trump, theyre voting for the US consitution etc...

Even if you value Democracy specifically, you have to acknowledge the threat from the Dems, The Hunter laptop story was potential election meddling? tbh there is an argument for that, FBI and CIA all claimed it was Russian disinformation, the government censored the story online, and every media organisation fell in line to bury it... only fornit to be authenticated.

Combine that with the 12 months leading up to the election, COVID, riots, the mailnin voting arguments, vote ID, Bidens cognitive issues, the divisive campaigning from both sides, it was probably the most scared a population has been for decades, probably since 9/11. Not to mention the election night debacle, and the result (80 million lol, most popular president ever, record breaking hahahaha) and all the investigations post election, of the corruption, and disinformation and blowing up of how wide spread election meddling was etc...

I can condemn what happened, but i can empathise with a population who went through a lot that year, on both sides. Its why i wouldnt out right condemn the BLM rioting, because a lot of factors played into that also.
The hunter biden laptop stuff just seemed to be to be a big nothing burger. What did he get charged with in the end?

To compare that to a president not honouring the peaceful transfer of power and for years, and he still does it, erodes trust in the democratic process itself is just totally different. You can't even compare the 2 let alone equate them.

I'd laugh at any republican saying they vote for the constitution when Trump evidently couldn't care less about the constitution hence why he tried to overturn a legitimate election result. Talk about election interference hey.
 
Yup that you're actually quite despicable and will defend any behavior, your just showing how much your a Trump Cultist despite always denying it.

Perfect example number 2.

You understand my point is that you are radicalised to the point where even any attempt to discuss these issues with nuance leads to.... 'Wiiiiiittttcccccchhhhh'

You screaming 'Witch' at my point isnt saying what you think it is!

Trump was not bragging about sexual assault 20 years ago, thats factual. Even if I was being the least generous in its interpretation, and i happily will be, its an arsehole celebrity bragging about how easy it is to get laid when your rich and famous. The line 'they let you do it' is absolutely talking about consent in 2005, consent has changed in the last 2 decades since then, but the world wasnt as enlightened in 2005 as it is 2025 when consent means actively agreeing. The culture 20 years ago was 'no means no' and thankfully that has been updated.
 
The hunter biden laptop stuff just seemed to be to be a big nothing burger. What did he get charged with in the end?

To compare that to a president not honouring the peaceful transfer of power and for years, and he still does it, erodes trust in the democratic process itself is just totally different. You can't even compare the 2 let alone equate them.

I'd laugh at any republican saying they vote for the constitution when Trump evidently couldn't care less about the constitution hence why he tried to overturn a legitimate election result. Talk about election interference hey.
Seriously?

Because Hunter wasnt criminalised from what was on there, the intelligence agencies pressuring media to block information from public viewing, blocking conversation and discussion about it essentially weeks before an election is a nothing burger?

We are going to have to disagree here, the Laptop debacle, which Zuckerberg apologised for, absolutely played a part in the election nonsense, how could people see that and not be scared of a stolen election, especially when combined with all the actions and rhetoric going on?

Forget that Clinton still denies 2016 was a fair election, or other prominant Dems still decry 2016 and 2024, and i can absolutely agree Trumps views on 2020 undermine democray (which the US isnt btw), but the 12 month campaign included a lot of shady and disgusting actions from both sides.

Do you disagree that all the actions leading up to, and post election contributed to Jan 6th etc, and part of that has to fall onto the Dems and Republicans as well as Trump?
 
Seriously?

Because Hunter wasnt criminalised from what was on there, the intelligence agencies pressuring media to block information from public viewing, blocking conversation and discussion about it essentially weeks before an election is a nothing burger?

We are going to have to disagree here, the Laptop debacle, which Zuckerberg apologised for, absolutely played a part in the election nonsense, how could people see that and not be scared of a stolen election, especially when combined with all the actions and rhetoric going on?

Forget that Clinton still denies 2016 was a fair election, or other prominant Dems still decry 2016 and 2024, and i can absolutely agree Trumps views on 2020 undermine democray (which the US isnt btw), but the 12 month campaign included a lot of shady and disgusting actions from both sides.

Do you disagree that all the actions leading up to, and post election contributed to Jan 6th etc, and part of that has to fall onto the Dems and Republicans as well as Trump?
I'm sorry, did Clinton delay the peaceful transfer of power and try to enact of plot involving fake electors to overthrow an election result? If so you might have a point if not these are not the same things. Clinton questioning an election result and then bowing out is a bit different to Trump leading an insurrection and still, 5 years later saying the election was rigged. Can we not agree that these are worlds apart from each other?
 
Sorry, to answer your question. I hold Trump, and his supporters/enablers solely responsible for their actions on Jan 6th. I don’t hold Hunter Biden or any dems responsible for that.
 
I'm sorry, did Clinton delay the peaceful transfer of power and try to enact of plot involving fake electors to overthrow an election result? If so you might have a point if not these are not the same things. Clinton questioning an election result and then bowing out is a bit different to Trump leading an insurrection and still, 5 years later saying the election was rigged. Can we not agree that these are worlds apart from each other?
They are all the same remember? The ultimate irony of mr nuance equating things that aren't even remotely similar...
 
They are all the same remember? The ultimate irony of mr nuance equating things that aren't even remotely similar...
I don't know why he can't just say that there was nothing like Jan 6th and Trumps actions on that day and since that is in the same universe (in recent history at least)

Saying "well, Hilary denied an election result once" is so disingenuous and bad faith in my opinion.
 
I don't know why he can't just say that there was nothing like Jan 6th and Trumps actions on that day and since that is in the same universe (in recent history at least)

Saying "well, Hilary denied an election result once" is so disingenuous and bad faith in my opinion.
It is. Hilary conceded to Trump and didn't undermine the entire democratic system. Anyone who tries to claim Gore or Hillary were remotely similar to Trump is either an idiot, a cultist or a liar.
 
I'm sorry, did Clinton delay the peaceful transfer of power and try to enact of plot involving fake electors to overthrow an election result? If so you might have a point if not these are not the same things. Clinton questioning an election result and then bowing out is a bit different to Trump leading an insurrection and still, 5 years later saying the election was rigged. Can we not agree that these are worlds apart from each other?

Leading an insurrection? Careful, that could be deemed letigious lol.
 
Sorry, to answer your question. I hold Trump, and his supporters/enablers solely responsible for their actions on Jan 6th. I don't hold Hunter Biden or any dems responsible for that.

So, in the run up to the 2020 election, none of the events of that year, scandals, and divisiclve politics have any contribution toward fear of losing democracy?

I Cant believe you lack that much empathy that you can condemn the actions, but give allbsolutely 0 fucks about anything that leads to that event. Thats not a believable position, because if it was you need to be tested for psychopathy traits.
 
I don't know why he can't just say that there was nothing like Jan 6th and Trumps actions on that day and since that is in the same universe (in recent history at least)

Saying "well, Hilary denied an election result once" is so disingenuous and bad faith in my opinion.

Literally never said that, im not sure why you have lied about my position. I listed a long list of events that contributed.

Its this kind of shenanigans that gave us trump, its like noone wants to learn lessons, and just wants to be seen as moral.
 
So, in the run up to the 2020 election, none of the events of that year, scandals, and divisiclve politics have any contribution toward fear of losing democracy?

I Cant believe you lack that much empathy that you can condemn the actions, but give allbsolutely 0 fucks about anything that leads to that event. Thats not a believable position, because if it was you need to be tested for psychopathy traits.
I said they didn't contribute to the fake elector plot and subsequent plan to overturn an election result. That's my position. Whatever you're saying about people fear of losing democracy is something separate. I don't see what's that got to do with Trump actually trying to overturn a legitimate election result.
 
Literally never said that, im not sure why you have lied about my position. I listed a long list of events that contributed.

Its this kind of shenanigans that gave us trump, its like noone wants to learn lessons, and just wants to be seen as moral.
Contributed to Jan 6th?

How do you proportion blame for Jan 6th. Are you saying it’s like 80% Trumps fault with 20% being other factors. Give me a rough ball park about how strong your feeling on it is. To me it seems quite simple to blame Trump for his unprecedented actions.
 
Contributed to Jan 6th?

How do you proportion blame for Jan 6th. Are you saying it's like 80% Trumps fault with 20% being other factors. Give me a rough ball park about how strong your feeling on it is. To me it seems quite simple to blame Trump for his unprecedented actions.

Ascribing a number is didfficult, Democrats failings are why Trump became a thing in the first place, and since his arrival the battle for hearts and minds became more and more vicious and irresponsible.

But my point is simple, 2020 was a crazy year, with a huge amount of major events that contributed to mass civil unrest on numerous occasions. I can condemn the actions, while acknowledging the reasons that led up to it.

COVID - huge tension that locked people in their homes, id say it was safe to say the Democrats were far more pro lock downs than Republicans no? Republicans tend to believe in free markets to solve problems instead of social safety nets. Not ro mention Democrats refusing to accept vaccines from operation warpspeed, and fighting for mask mandates etc. Democrats absolutely were perceived of sacrificing public to beat Trump from a neatral POV.

BLM - Republicans watched months and billions of damage of rioting being essentially defended and promoted by Democrats. Rule of law, and COVID restrictions seemed to be turned off for racial equity. Democrats literally took the knee to BLM. Id feel uneasy if Labour took a knee, and pledged to assist jst stop oil, and the disruption on society that would cause (from a BLM position, abolishing prisons, law enforcement and the traditional family).

Economic impact of COVID - during later in the year it became a discussion of hpw to open up, republicans were far more eager to open societies than Dems, who wanted further lockdowns. People were living off scraps, especially the republican demographics who are poorer. This would absolutely have created anger and frustration.

Election logistics - Voter ID and especially mail in voting created a tinder box, both sides absolutely contributed to the blame culture, with them both accusing each other of election meddling. Demoxrats were viewed as elongating lock downs to impliment a much less strict voter system, one which Republicans viewed as comprimised. Dems screaming Russia for 5 years plus didnt help.

Social media - with so much bull **** flying around, noone knew what to believe, so everyone believed everything. Look at the attacks on Trump for claiming it came from China, when he closed the borders he was called racist, then 2 months later he was villified for reacting too slowly lol. Blaming deaths on Trump became common place, defending China became common place, and there was tons of Putin wants Trump to win, and Trump will erase elections if he wins lol. At this stage right wing creators were using every Democrat action as anti democracy. Bannings and restrictions of anti COVID rhetoric, targetted Republicans mostly.

Mainstream - maybe the stupidest issue, reporters embarrassing themselves throwing gotcha questions, and going after Trump for nonsense created an us vs them, im reminded of the asian reporter asking about the origins of COVID, and Trump.replies 'ask china' and she freaks out about why he directed the answer to her lol.

Hunter laptop story - this was such unreal timing, and kind of wrapped up all tensions from Republicans in one lovely little bundle.

3 weeks before a horrible election cycle, from all sides, the post report on it, linking Joe knowledge of his sons dodgy dealings in Ukraine and China. What did everyone do? Communicate calmly about what it was, how verified it was, and why it is important to take a breath and put it in context? No, just hammer ban anyone who mentions it, have the FBI, CIA and former US intelligence officer calm it Russian propoganda, force every agency to kill the story, and refuse to allow people to discuss it... great play for the election, probably saved Bidens case, but destroted credibility in a lot of organisations and painted them as anti people. Democrats absolutely were involved in this.

Post election nonsense - Election night was freaky, i always stay up and watch, by 3 am i thought it was game over, Trumps won it, but then that mad dump of postal votes, vans rocking up to polling centres, people covering windows, observers being ejected, then convictions for fraud, all these typical behaviours that happens every 4 years, documented and scrutinised like never before, and Democrats went on the full offensive and offered no attempt to quell tensions whatsoever.

So, despite me never defending Trumps actions, as i believe he was irresponsible for the post election chaos, and leading up to the day, but i can absolutely be empathetic towards MAGA supporters in trying to understand their actions in that time. They make absolute sense, and aside from the radical few, the tensions and frustrations throughout is human nature.

They perceived the Democrats spend a year trying to lock them up, then celebrate riots, then try to lock them up again, then dismiss them as racist deplorables, then go after Trump in every legal way possible, try to include millions of illegal civilians into the process, and degrade election security.

This is all Democrat failings, and stupidity that absolutely contributed to Jan 6th, and thisnis not to downplay Trumps role, but as some very smart person said above, multiple things can be true at once, the alternative is demonisation of near 80 million as bad, because regardless of political affiliation most people are not bad.

if i was forced to put a number on it:

Trump 40%
Dems 20%
Reps 10%
Social media 20%
George Soros 10%
 
Ascribing a number is didfficult, Democrats failings are why Trump became a thing in the first place, and since his arrival the battle for hearts and minds became more and more vicious and irresponsible.

But my point is simple, 2020 was a crazy year, with a huge amount of major events that contributed to mass civil unrest on numerous occasions. I can condemn the actions, while acknowledging the reasons that led up to it.

COVID - huge tension that locked people in their homes, id say it was safe to say the Democrats were far more pro lock downs than Republicans no? Republicans tend to believe in free markets to solve problems instead of social safety nets. Not ro mention Democrats refusing to accept vaccines from operation warpspeed, and fighting for mask mandates etc. Democrats absolutely were perceived of sacrificing public to beat Trump from a neatral POV.

BLM - Republicans watched months and billions of damage of rioting being essentially defended and promoted by Democrats. Rule of law, and COVID restrictions seemed to be turned off for racial equity. Democrats literally took the knee to BLM. Id feel uneasy if Labour took a knee, and pledged to assist jst stop oil, and the disruption on society that would cause (from a BLM position, abolishing prisons, law enforcement and the traditional family).

Economic impact of COVID - during later in the year it became a discussion of hpw to open up, republicans were far more eager to open societies than Dems, who wanted further lockdowns. People were living off scraps, especially the republican demographics who are poorer. This would absolutely have created anger and frustration.

Election logistics - Voter ID and especially mail in voting created a tinder box, both sides absolutely contributed to the blame culture, with them both accusing each other of election meddling. Demoxrats were viewed as elongating lock downs to impliment a much less strict voter system, one which Republicans viewed as comprimised. Dems screaming Russia for 5 years plus didnt help.

Social media - with so much bull **** flying around, noone knew what to believe, so everyone believed everything. Look at the attacks on Trump for claiming it came from China, when he closed the borders he was called racist, then 2 months later he was villified for reacting too slowly lol. Blaming deaths on Trump became common place, defending China became common place, and there was tons of Putin wants Trump to win, and Trump will erase elections if he wins lol. At this stage right wing creators were using every Democrat action as anti democracy. Bannings and restrictions of anti COVID rhetoric, targetted Republicans mostly.

Mainstream - maybe the stupidest issue, reporters embarrassing themselves throwing gotcha questions, and going after Trump for nonsense created an us vs them, im reminded of the asian reporter asking about the origins of COVID, and Trump.replies 'ask china' and she freaks out about why he directed the answer to her lol.

Hunter laptop story - this was such unreal timing, and kind of wrapped up all tensions from Republicans in one lovely little bundle.

3 weeks before a horrible election cycle, from all sides, the post report on it, linking Joe knowledge of his sons dodgy dealings in Ukraine and China. What did everyone do? Communicate calmly about what it was, how verified it was, and why it is important to take a breath and put it in context? No, just hammer ban anyone who mentions it, have the FBI, CIA and former US intelligence officer calm it Russian propoganda, force every agency to kill the story, and refuse to allow people to discuss it... great play for the election, probably saved Bidens case, but destroted credibility in a lot of organisations and painted them as anti people. Democrats absolutely were involved in this.

Post election nonsense - Election night was freaky, i always stay up and watch, by 3 am i thought it was game over, Trumps won it, but then that mad dump of postal votes, vans rocking up to polling centres, people covering windows, observers being ejected, then convictions for fraud, all these typical behaviours that happens every 4 years, documented and scrutinised like never before, and Democrats went on the full offensive and offered no attempt to quell tensions whatsoever.

So, despite me never defending Trumps actions, as i believe he was irresponsible for the post election chaos, and leading up to the day, but i can absolutely be empathetic towards MAGA supporters in trying to understand their actions in that time. They make absolute sense, and aside from the radical few, the tensions and frustrations throughout is human nature.

They perceived the Democrats spend a year trying to lock them up, then celebrate riots, then try to lock them up again, then dismiss them as racist deplorables, then go after Trump in every legal way possible, try to include millions of illegal civilians into the process, and degrade election security.

This is all Democrat failings, and stupidity that absolutely contributed to Jan 6th, and thisnis not to downplay Trumps role, but as some very smart person said above, multiple things can be true at once, the alternative is demonisation of near 80 million as bad, because regardless of political affiliation most people are not bad.

if i was forced to put a number on it:

Trump 40%
Dems 20%
Reps 10%
Social media 20%
George Soros 10%
I won't lie I didn't read all of that (could've of done a TLDR) but I got the general point.

I don't see how any of these things in anyway absolves Trump of trying to overturn a legitimate election result and to constantly undermine the democratic process. Biden, Clinton, Obama or any republican never would've dreamed of insulting the constitution the way Trump did. How has BLM or Hunter Biden got anything to do with this?

Trump is a bad loser and couldn’t accept he lost so tried to cheat his way into staying in office and he failed. That's on him and his enablers.
 
It really is very simple, without Trump's continual dismissal of the legitimate results, and his illegal acts to overturn it, Jan 6th doesn't happen.

His pardoning of those involved also shows he agreed with their actions and didn't feel they should be punished.

There is nothing else that needs to be said, Trump caused Jan 6th and Trump condones Jan 6th.
 

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