Wales vs South Africa

[aussie_pride]

You make some excellent points Ausie Pride.

I don't fully believe this trouble maker stuff either.... but ther's too many rumours going round. For me, if it's got nothing to do with Gareth Thomas, someone in the WRU needs to grow a pair and tell us what actually happened. If GT was involved, then get rid of him.

My friends and I believe it'll be a good thing when Gareth Thomas is no longer involved in International rugby, it'll give a chance for the fans to begin afresh, without people going on about player power etc. (as he is believed to be the main culpript). This may be a load of s**t, who knows.

As a player, Gareth Thomas has been one of the greatest Welsh players of all time, top try scorer (think Shane Williams will overtake him though) and first Welsh player to reach 100 caps (tryly excellent acheivement). He would still make excellent bench cover...... hmm, dunno what I would do.

On another note, what do people think of Morgan Stoddard?

He seems to be an excellent player, not afraid of taking someone on, as the Clermont game proved (taking on, and beating Rougerie on a number of occasions). He's not one of these fullbacks that does an up-and-under on every occasion. He also seems a very reliable player. Hope he can step up to International level, like he did Regional.
[/b]

Well for the position of fullback in Wales' case, I would like to see it go to an experienced head who may not necessarily be the fastest player in the world or the quickest but a player who knows when to interject himself into the game and when to sit back. I liked Thomas' role at fullback because he added intelligence into the backline and often made correct decisions in both attack and defence. I think Wales need a player like that whose a bit younger. I like Kevin Morgan as a player, but what about playing Dafydd James at full back? It may seem ludicrous at first but hes a big man, generally safe under the high ball and uses his head. I think thats what Wales need at fullback. To put it simply...you guys need the complete opposite of Chris Latham.

Ideally, in the next couple of years I would like to see Wales play an ultra attacking brand of rugby, because I do believe they have the forwards to dominate games to such a large extent. What I would love to see is:
9. Peel
10. Jones
11. Williams
12. Hook
13. Henson
14. Brew/Czekaj
15. Dafydd James/Kevin Morgan

Id love to see a real attacking centre partnership of Hook and Henson because I believe if they develop an understanding in the centres then Wales could score alot of points. However, most people will immediately point to the fact that both players are suspect and defence. Fair point. I think thats what will stop those two playing together in the centres; Hook and Henson need to improve their defence and IMO their overall tackling technique. However, I think this problem could be easily remedied. I like Czekaj as a player and he is a big, strong, strapping winger. Buy playing him, you would not only be playing another attacking player but you will be adding a bit of size and bulk to the backline. He could even come an defend at outside centre and let Henson defend on the wing. If Hook and Henson improve their defence then I think Aled Brew deserves his crack.

 

[dullonien]

Some interesting ideas there, but I have to disagree.

Playing an attacking backline is just what everyone in Wales wants, it's in our blood. But playing Hook 12, Henson 13 and Dafydd James full back is just wrong! Hook is a 10, always has been, always will be. He just doesn't have the time at 12, doesn't get into the game and just looks like a fly half playing out of position.

Henson is a 12, don't think he's ever played 13 for O's, let alone Wales, his distribution skills are wasted at outside centre, and I belive you need one strong running, powerfull centre to do the hard yards (i.e. Shanklin). Also don't worry about Hensons tackling, looks like he's back to his old solid self.

Dafydd James is a centre come winger, he's past his best, and don't think he'll figure for Wales again. I think the best fullback for Wales is an attackling one, combining with the likes of Shane Williams, Mark Jones and Tom James to counter any poor kicking. When Kevin Morgan is fit and on form, he is our best strike runner, running superb angles and joining the line with impecable timing. Stoddard seems similar, but with size and strength to boot. I believe he is the future, he's playing well for Scarlets in the ML and HC, why not give him a chance.

Czekaj is not international class imo, he made huge strides in his first season for the Blues, then went backwards. I hope he recovers from the nasty injury he sustained playing v Aus, but I think theres better prospects on their way through. Tom James and Aled Brew to name two.

With everyone playing to potential, this would be my backline:

09 Dwayne Peel
10 James Hook
11 Shane Williams
12 Gavin Henson
13 Tom Shanklin
14 Tom James
15 Morgan Stoddard

 

[aussie_pride]

Some interesting ideas there, but I have to disagree.

Playing an attacking backline is just what everyone in Wales wants, it's in our blood. But playing Hook 12, Henson 13 and Dafydd James full back is just wrong! Hook is a 10, always has been, always will be. He just doesn't have the time at 12, doesn't get into the game and just looks like a fly half playing out of position.

Henson is a 12, don't think he's ever played 13 for O's, let alone Wales, his distribution skills are wasted at outside centre, and I belive you need one strong running, powerfull centre to do the hard yards (i.e. Shanklin). Also don't worry about Hensons tackling, looks like he's back to his old solid self.

Dafydd James is a centre come winger, he's past his best, and don't think he'll figure for Wales again. I think the best fullback for Wales is an attackling one, combining with the likes of Shane Williams, Mark Jones and Tom James to counter any poor kicking. When Kevin Morgan is fit and on form, he is our best strike runner, running superb angles and joining the line with impecable timing. Stoddard seems similar, but with size and strength to boot. I believe he is the future, he's playing well for Scarlets in the ML and HC, why not give him a chance.

Czekaj is not international class imo, he made huge strides in his first season for the Blues, then went backwards. I hope he recovers from the nasty injury he sustained playing v Aus, but I think theres better prospects on their way through. Tom James and Aled Brew to name two.

With everyone playing to potential, this would be my backline:

09 Dwayne Peel
10 James Hook
11 Shane Williams
12 Gavin Henson
13 Tom Shanklin
14 Tom James
15 Morgan Stoddard
[/b]

Fair point about Hook and Henson. I still believe it is possible to play 2 attacking centres who are creative if you have a mobile and dominant forward pack. Just on the backline, Im surprised that Gareth Cooper no longer gets a look in. I think on many occasions he looks a much smarter player than Dwayne Peel, even though his distribution may not be as good. I like Mike Phillips as an impact player though.

Also what do you think of Martyn Thomas and Gareth Wyatt?

 

[dullonien]

Up untill 2005-6, I thought Cooper was the better scrum half, he had more pace, quicker distribution (slighty off target sometimes), just slightly ahead of peel. But Cooper went down hill big time (hopefully a move to Gloucester will do him good), wheras Peel improved. I think it's now a straight soot out between Peel and Phillips, even though Richie Rees is improving quickly at the Blues.

Gareth Wyatt is getting on a bit now (I know he still looks like a kid, but he's 30!) He's a good Regional player, but not quite international class. Too small without the jinkery of Shane Williams, he's an excellent 'footballer' though, i.e. small chips, kick n' chases etc.

I haven't had a chance to see alot of Martyn Thomas, so I won't comment on him. Seems to be doing ok at the Dragons so far, give him another year to see where he is.

Fair play, you have some in depth knowlage of rugby here in Wales.

 

[dullonien]

Well the Welsh squad has been trimmed down to 24. A few big names missed out, Adam Jones and Ian Gough the biggest. Stoddard misses out, so that leaves Lee Burne an almost certain starter.

24 Man suqad:

Backs: Lee Byrne (Ospreys), Mark Jones (Scarlets), Tom James (Blues), Tom Shanklin (Blues), Jamie Robinson (Blues), Gavin Henson (Ospreys), Sonny Parker (Ospreys), Stephen Jones (Scarlets), James Hook (Ospreys), Michael Phillips (Ospreys), Dwayne Peel (Scarlets)

Forwards: Jonathan Thomas (Ospreys), Alix Popham (Scarlets), Colin Charvis (Dragons), Robin Sowden-Taylor (Blues), Alun Wyn Jones (Ospreys), Ian Evans (Ospreys), Michael Owen (Dragons), Luke Charteris (Dragons), Rhys Thomas (Dragons), Huw Bennett (Ospreys), T Rhys Thomas (Blues), Gethin Jenkins (Blues, capt), Duncan Jones (Ospreys)

 

[stormmaster1]

Wales have a dangerous backline. We all know that, but do you think that set of forwards will do well against the Springboks, even without Matfield?

 

[BokMagic]

Right, considering injuries, European-based players whose clubs are refusing to release their Boks, a couple of retirements etc, this is White`s most likely starting lineup, considering the way they ran in practice up to now:

15- Ruan Pienaar/Conrad Jantjies, 14- JP Pietersen, 13- Jacque Fourie, 12- Frans Steyn, 11- Bryan Habana, 10- Andre Pretorius, 9- Turdy January/Ruan Pienaar, 8- Ryan Kankowski, 7- Juan Smith, 6- Schalk Burger, 5- Johann Muller, 4- Bakkies Botha, 3- Dr. Jannie Du Plessis, 2- John Smit©, 1- CJ V D Linde.

Basically, mostly White will stick with continuity, the only debut will be for the very impressive Kankowski, and probably the even more impressive Heinke V D Merwe on the bench. He has also been pretty clear in that he wants Pienaar to start at 15, although the withdrawal of Du Preez might just give Jantjies another cap at 15, with Pienaar having to move back to 9.

 

[dullonien]

Wales have a dangerous backline. We all know that, but do you think that set of forwards will do well against the Springboks, even without Matfield? [/b]

The front row will most likely be:

01 Gething Jenkins
02 T Rhys Thomas
03 Rhys Thomas

Scrum time, I'm expecting them to be fine. Rhys Thomas is an excellent young prop who does the basics well, he'll hold is own crum time. Gethin will have no problems. Lineout time is a huge concern (as it always is), T Rhys Thomas isn't renowned for his good throwing, but with a second row of:

04 Ian Evans
05 Alun-Wyn Jones

they are both capable lineout jumpers, especially Ian Evans. He had an impecable display in the linout v Glaus on the weekend, and has been Wales' linout captain (when fit) for a while. Springboks linout is the best in the world, so I expect theirs to be too good for us unfortunately.

Back row is where the problems are for Wales at the moment, with Martyn Williams retired and the up and coming Robin Sowden Taylor being kept out of the Cardiff Blues 7 shirt by Martyn, we will proberly revert to Charvis. I'm expecting something sililar to this:

06 Jonathan Thomas
07 Colin Charvis
08 Alix Popham

the 6 and 8 jerseys are kinda up in the air in my opinion. Nigel Davies has said he's been impressed with Michael Owen, so could we see his return to the Welsh fold this weekend? I haven't been impressed with Popham over the last few months. Were really missing a number eight like Ryan Jones at the moment, hopefully he'll be back playing in December.

We're gonna struggle up front against the Boks, and I don't expect us to win the match, but this truly is a building period for Wales.

One last thing. Lee Burne is injured, so it looks like Stoddard will make his international debut on Saturday at fullback.

 

[scuubasteve]

Dullonien. I've gotta say I like Stoddard also. He has some serious bulk to compliment his flair, which is a big bonus at the back.

In terms of No.7 I've also been impressed with Jon Edwards. He's not physically that big for a modern day loose forward (height wise anyway) but seems to have the unique gift of being in the right place. He could well mature to be a world class openside.

As for your chances this weekend, the Bok lineout won't be quite so intimidating without Matfield. It'll be the contact area and the breakdown that will be the sticking point. Burger, Smith and Konkowski are all big men with a lot of mobility. Matching their intensity in the loose will be key to Wales staying in the game.

But, it's definitely possible.

 

[aussie_pride]

<div class='quotemain'> Wales have a dangerous backline. We all know that, but do you think that set of forwards will do well against the Springboks, even without Matfield? [/b]

The front row will most likely be:

01 Gething Jenkins
02 T Rhys Thomas
03 Rhys Thomas

Scrum time, I'm expecting them to be fine. Rhys Thomas is an excellent young prop who does the basics well, he'll hold is own crum time. Gethin will have no problems. Lineout time is a huge concern (as it always is), T Rhys Thomas isn't renowned for his good throwing, but with a second row of:

04 Ian Evans
05 Alun-Wyn Jones

they are both capable lineout jumpers, especially Ian Evans. He had an impecable display in the linout v Glaus on the weekend, and has been Wales' linout captain (when fit) for a while. Springboks linout is the best in the world, so I expect theirs to be too good for us unfortunately.

Back row is where the problems are for Wales at the moment, with Martyn Williams retired and the up and coming Robin Sowden Taylor being kept out of the Cardiff Blues 7 shirt by Martyn, we will proberly revert to Charvis. I'm expecting something sililar to this:

06 Jonathan Thomas
07 Colin Charvis
08 Alix Popham

the 6 and 8 jerseys are kinda up in the air in my opinion. Nigel Davies has said he's been impressed with Michael Owen, so could we see his return to the Welsh fold this weekend? I haven't been impressed with Popham over the last few months. Were really missing a number eight like Ryan Jones at the moment, hopefully he'll be back playing in December.

We're gonna struggle up front against the Boks, and I don't expect us to win the match, but this truly is a building period for Wales.

One last thing. Lee Burne is injured, so it looks like Stoddard will make his international debut on Saturday at fullback.
[/b][/quote]
I like you front row dullonien. However, what are your thoughts on playing Iestyn Thomas? For me I just cant help but get the feeling that hes either fallen out of favor with the Welsh selectors or they dont rate him anymore. I remember he played against the Wallabies earlier this year and he did a fine job at scrum time. Mind you, with Australia's scrum, you dont really have to do much to make us concede a penalty. For me though, I see Thomas as an experienced front rower whose is still playing well enough to start for Wales and an excellent scrummager. Also I always get the feeling that both Adam Jones and Duncan Jones are more effectively utilized off the bench. They both seem to play 40-50 minutes of intense rugby before they start to tire.

With regards to the second row, I would have thought Brent Cockbain was one of your best two line out jumpers. I view him as a player that your going to need in your team if Wales are going to compete in the line outs, especially since you dont have an accurate line out thrower. To be honest, I dont know who your best line out thrower is. I thought Matthew Rees was starting to improve during the world cup but I think its an area of concern that hasnt been addressed since Garin Jenkins' time. (McBryde and Mefin Davies were good but not great). Also I think there are other nations which have an exceptional line out that can match the Springboks. I think Scotland for me are right up there with South Africa in terms of their line out ability, its such a pity that they waste the good work their forwards do with the poor management in their back line, but thats another issue.

I agree that the Welsh back row is a problem. What I dont get though is why they pick Charvis. It just seems to be a bit of a contradiction to me. The Welsh establishment gives the impression that they want to move on and its time to part with the loyal stalwarts such as Gareth Thomas but then consist on keeping veterans like Charvis. I know he was playing well and is still a fine play, but so is Gareth Thomas. I dont think he did anything wrong. Im not saying Charvis should be dropped but I just think that Wales have to make a one-way decision on what direction they want to go, or they will end end up in another mess. Personally, id like to see the veterans utilised as bench players until Wales establish a cohesive squad where they can play well without having to rely on the inspiration of the likes of Thomas and Charvis. In saying that, I think Gavin Thomas should be picked if available and same with Ryan Jones. I agree with Popham, for me I dont think his defensive abilities are up to international standard. He got absolutely slaughtered against Fiji. Michael Owen is a terrific player, Im not sure how old he is, but it seems as if hes been around for ages. Jonathan Thomas picks himself. The other name id like to throw in the air is Morgan. I think its Scott Morgan (correct me if im wrong).

One last thing, is the scrum half position. I know hes fallen out of favour and is not playing like he use to but I think on his day Gareth Cooper is your best scrum half. Many people will say that Peel fires the ball out quicker than any of your other half backs, but I believe Cooper is a much smarter player.

 

[Cymrurugbyfan]

hey any welsh lads going to the game???
[/b]

WOOHOO, yes I am. I'm also going to the Sprays - Leinster game the night before on a school trip Brilliant weekend for me! Come on: and Leinster.

One last thing. Lee Burne is injured, so it looks like Stoddard will make his international debut on Saturday at fullback. [/b]

A terrible thing to say, but I'm happy with that. Lee Byrne is awful at international level, and if he started, we'd may aswell have hung up a white flag while bowing on our knees.

At least this gives Stoddart a chance to get some international experience; he could turn into a superb player in the future.

 

[stormmaster1]

Right, considering injuries, European-based players whose clubs are refusing to release their Boks, a couple of retirements etc, this is White`s most likely starting lineup, considering the way they ran in practice up to now:

15- Ruan Pienaar/Conrad Jantjies, 14- JP Pietersen, 13- Jacque Fourie, 12- Frans Steyn, 11- Bryan Habana, 10- Andre Pretorius, 9- Turdy January/Ruan Pienaar, 8- Ryan Kankowski, 7- Juan Smith, 6- Schalk Burger, 5- Johann Muller, 4- Bakkies Botha, 3- Dr. Jannie Du Plessis, 2- John Smit©, 1- CJ V D Linde.

Basically, mostly White will stick with continuity, the only debut will be for the very impressive Kankowski, and probably the even more impressive Heinke V D Merwe on the bench. He has also been pretty clear in that he wants Pienaar to start at 15, although the withdrawal of Du Preez might just give Jantjies another cap at 15, with Pienaar having to move back to 9.

[/b]

Cosidering who is out that is a pretty awesome lineup. Forwards look a lot more powerful than the Welsh while the backline is hardly weak. Habana will finish anything off, Pieterson is also not short of pace and the centres are both fine players. The main areas of concern for SA will be how well the half backs gel. If the No9 can get half as much out of the forwards as Du Preez did then Wales are in for a rough ride.

 

[dullonien]

To answer a few of Aussie Pride's questions.

I think Iestyn Thomas is a fine player, he's been unlucky over the last few years with injury etc. and is finding it difficult to regain his international spot. For me, he's an excellent scrummager (proberly slightly better than Duncan and Gethin) but doesn't offer quite as much around the field. Duncan Jones is an absolute work horse, he's usually way out in front on the amount of tackles he makes in any team he plays. Gethin Jenkins is a huge guy, at over 19stone he gives another ball carrying option. He hasn't quite regained his 2005 form, but he's getting there, he's also been named captain for this test, so he's guaranteed a starting place. The one other loose head head that's in the frame for me is John Yapp, another giant of a man, who was a main part of the team in 2005, but (as with many) got injured and is only now finding his true form again.

I don't consider Brent Cockbain as an international second rower anymore. He's another that got injured (tore his hanstrong off the bone) and failed to regain the form he was showing a few years ago. Ian Evans and Alun-Wyn Jones are the best second rowers we have, and they will be a main part of the Welsh team for years to come. Ian Evans is one of the best lineout jumpers in Wales (Luke Charteris up there aswell), he has really sorted Ospreys lineout after returning from injury, I'm sure he'll do the same for Wales.

Regarding hookers, we have a real problem at the moment, none of them are consistent at throwing in. They are all very good around the field, but their main function is aften appaling. Mathew Rees got injured in the Scarlets v Wasps game (broke his hand). Rhys Thomas is still considered no 2 in Wales, although I would argue that Richard Hibbard asn't far behind, along with Huw Bennet. The first one who sorts their throwing out, will have the Welsh shirt. Now there's an insentive if ever I heard one.

I think Charvis still deserves his spot. He's playing well for the dragons, and is arguably better than anything else we have. The difference between Charvis and Gareth Thomas is that we have sufficient cover for Gareth Thomas' positions, but struggling to replace Charvis at the moment. If this is Charvis' last game for Wales, that's fine with me, he just needs to fill the void left by Martyn Williams untill a suitable replacement arrives. The Scarlets youngster Jonathan Edwards is a very promising player, but not quite ready yet in my opinion. Scott Morgan is another one the verge of international quality, but unfortunately isn't playing regulary for the Cardiff Blues. I think our best back row is:

06 Jonathan Thomas
07 Colin Charvis
08 Michael Owen

I'd give Michael Owen another shot. He's an exellent ball handler, something we've been missing. The problem with that back row is the rack of physicality. But I think it's something we're gonna have to risk for now, better option that putting an under performing Alix Popham at no 8. Untill someone like Ryan Jones get's back to fitness or Gareth Delve and Gavin Quinell improve sufficently, we've got a huge problem at no 8.

I've stated my opinion on Cooper before, excellent player a few years ago, but hasn't been anywhere neer that form for a long time. He wasn't even first choice at the Dragons when he was there. Would be excellent to have three top scrum halves available, but that's not the case at the moment. Bloody Lions really seemed to be the turning point (for the worse) for so many Welsh players!

Gotta get back to work now, lol.

 

[aussie_pride]

Interesting to hear your thoughts on the forwards. I absolutely agree about the problems in the hooking role and you make some great points about the back row. With regards to Charvis, Id like to see Sowden-Taylor come into the side and replace him.

With regards to Wales' halves and backline. Im not sure if many Welsh fans share the same view as me, but I do believe that Stephen Jones does look a shadow of the player he once was. I thought he was poor at the world cup and just seems to be lacking that little bit of flair that has become so essential for five-eighths to have in international rugby these days. I think James Hook is the future, although at present he is a horribly inconsistent player. I also wouldn't be disappointed to see Ceri Sweeney given a chance as I believe he is another player who is terribly underrated.

The half back position for me goes to Peel although Id seriously be tempted to play Mike Phillips. The centres for me are an area which needs to be addressed. I think Henson needs to be playing as many games for Wales as possible as he is Wales' match winner and talisman. Hes a quality player and I believe that if you throw him in the deep end and give him enough time, he will become on of the best centres in the world. I dont think hes matured as a player but I just get the feeling that if he can remain injury free, his best years are ahead of him. Im not sure who id pick to play at outside centre to be honest. Theres these elements about Tom Shanklin's game which seem to focus on braun rather than brains and also seems to fade as the match progresses. I just think Wales need someone at outside who is going to have a sustained impact. Whether that be Jamie Robinson or Tom James Im not sure. Wingers, for me should be Shane Williams and anyone but Mark Jones (who is a solid player but not an outstanding one). Id like Wales to pick another Aled Brew. For fullback...ill take everyones word for it and go for Stoddard. Also whats happened to Kevin Morgan...does he still get a look in these days?

 

[SaintsFan_Webby]

Welsh team has been announced:

Wales team v South Africa:

Morgan Stoddart (Scarlets); Mark Jones (Scarlets), Sonny Parker (Ospreys), Gavin Henson (Ospreys), Tom Shanklin (Blues); James Hook (Ospreys), Dwayne Peel (Scarlets); Gethin Jenkins (Blues, capt), Huw Bennett (Ospreys), Rhys Thomas (Dragons), Ian Evans (Ospreys), Alun Wyn Jones (Ospreys), Colin Charvis (Dragons), Robin Sowden-Taylor (Blues), Jonathan Thomas (Ospreys).
Replacements: T Rhys Thomas (Blues), Duncan Jones (Ospreys), Luke Charteris (Dragons), Alix Popham (Scarlets), Mike Phillips (Ospreys), Stephen Jones (Scarlets), Tom James (Blues).


Why oh why oh why is Sonny Parker still being given international honours? Time and time again he has shown he just isn't up to it, but for some reason the Welsh setup seem unable to just cast him aside once and for all. Big step backwards from where I'm standing. At least there are some positives with the likes of Hook, Stoddard and James being given opportunities.

 

[loratadine]

ummm... im gunna purchase my tickets today

 

[dullonien]

Agree Webby, why is Sonny Parker at outside centre. He had a good game for the Ospreys on the weekend, but he's just not up to it at international level anymore. Nigel Davies has picked the most consistent centre Wales have had in previous years, Tom Shanklin on the wing! I'm sure everyone in Wales and some outside were looking foreward to seeing the Henson-Shanklin partnership back together.

I suppose he decided Habana might prove too much for young Tom James to handle, so elected to put a solid defender against him instead. Some sensible reasoning there I suppose.

The rest of the team, I'm very happy about though. Trying to decide wether to travel down for this match now! Might just do.

 

[Incredible Schalk]

It really i worth going to watch South Africa if anything else. I went to see them at Murrayfield before the world cup and the intensity of their game was incredible, they really did just shut Scotland out of the game. That day they pretty much had all their world cup winners playing but it is always worth getting to see Habana,Burger etc.. One image that will always stay with me is this ray of light shining on the Boks when Burger started a counter attack. Incredible.

 

[Cymro]

Annoyed with Sonny Parker getting the nod at center, annoyed with how Michael Owen has been playing out of his skin for the Dragons and gets f all as a reward for it!

Bar that happy times!

 

[Cymrurugbyfan]

Would be excellent to have three top scrum halves available [/b]

I'd take 2 world-class SH's and 1 good scrum-half anyday over 3 in-form SH's; especially since we can bring Phillips on to make a big impact on the tired opposition, and he would have started the game if it weren't for Peel's good form recently. We also have Gareth Cooper, who may not be at his best, but is a good substitution against weaker sides. We also have Shane Williams if we are short due to injuries, and Andy Williams if we really are desperate.

The only problem with our backline is our goalkicking, outside centre and depth with fullback.